Heresy 226 of wolves, dragons and other familiars

[LynnS]

@RanAre the restrictions still in place for open discussion about the TWOW released chapters?

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Jon has read the section that Aemon marks for him in the Jade Compendium and now I wonder if Aemon was literally telling Jon to arm himself with this knowledge.

I wonder if Jon will figure out that plunging his sword into Mel's firery heart will change his magic sword into a sword that is alway warm to the touch. 

Jon dreams of wielding a fiery blade, and if Dawn is Lightbringer, then maybe it’s important that Jon have Dayne blood? I believe Jon is Ned’s and Ashara’s son which would make him the blood of both ice and fire. The Daynes get overlooked when it comes to being associated with fire, but I believe their house is the white knight and shield that protects the south while the Starks are the black knight and shield. The wheel of time is running in reverse and reality has flipped. East is now west and the north is not only south - it’s flipped upside down and under the water of the Drowned God. And because the north is now south, it’s Hero must be a knight from the house that protects the south - the Daynes.

[LynnS]

48 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jon dreams of wielding a fiery blade, and if Dawn is Lightbringer, then maybe it’s important that Jon have Dayne blood? I believe Jon is Ned’s and Ashara’s son which would make him the blood of both ice and fire. The Daynes get overlooked when it comes to being associated with fire, but I believe their house is the white knight and shield that protects the south while the Starks are the black knight and shield. The wheel of time is running in reverse and reality has flipped. East is now west and the north is not only south - it’s flipped upside down and under the water of the Drowned God. And because the north is now south, it’s Hero must be a knight from the house that protects the south - the Daynes.

I don't know what I think about Jon parentage anymore.  It could be possible that valyrian steel plunged into Mel's fiery heart could be transform it in some way.  Since these could be magical blades that potentially take on additional magical characteristics.  Which is why I wonder if Aemon's advice for Jon to arm himself (with knowledge); really means, get rid of Mel this way and make your own Lightbringer.

I'm more inclined to think that Dany is Rhaegar and Ashara's daughter, and that she is the Rhoynish connection, in that match.  Ashara was one of Elia's ladies and I think present at Aegon's birth.  Potentially,the person that Rhaegar is speaking to in Dany's vision.  The notion that a bleeding star marks the birth is open to interpretation.  A bleeding star can easily be a shooting star or a comet since they both 'bleed' or leave a trail.   So while the red comet marks Dany's rebirth and the arrival of dragons; a shooting star or a symbolic bleeding star, as in the Dayne sigil; could mark her birth.  Add to that, Rhaegar saying that there must be a third head, and the undying calling Dany the child of three.  So while I'm in general agreement that Rhaegar intended to produce three children;  I don't see any of that lining up with Jon.  Especially if the bloodline that counts is Targaryen and Rhoynish.

I'm not sure who will end up with the Dawn Sword, but I have strong gut feeling that it will be Brienne, the only character who will actually be 'worthy' of the blade.  It might change a few hands before then,  but she has a kind of last hero vibe going on.  Brienne the evenstar could become the morningstar, since they are the same planetary object.

I agree that Bran is the new drowned god, under the sea as Patchface tells it; the one who will die for everyone.

So Jon's parentage is still a mystery to me, but I tend to go for the answer that is most vilified and dismissed.  LOL

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jon dreams of wielding a fiery blade, and if Dawn is Lightbringer, then maybe it’s important that Jon have Dayne blood? 

That dream, Jon's unresolved parentage, and the oft-discussed "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow" are all suggestive and compelling, though Jaime has a dream in which he and Brienne are wielding burning swords as well. Jaime's dream also overlaps in other ways with both Jon's dream in ADWD, and Dany's dream of fighting Robert's host in ASOS--they all dream of themselves fighting the ghosts of their past, with the ghosts adorned in imagery of mist and ice.

In addition to the question as to whether or not AAR and PTWP are the same thing, and whether Dany or someone else best fits a particular prophesy, I'm also left wondering whether or not "AAR" isn't a role that has been guaranteed to a single figure by birth, but rather, something that is up for grabs--eg, Dany, Jaime, Jon, Brienne and perhaps others all have the potential to become AAR. Alternately, perhaps the "three heads of the dragon" are three people that will all undergo their own personal variation of the Azor Ahai journey in the build up to Long Night 2.0.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm more inclined to think that Dany is Rhaegar and Ashara's daughter, and that she is the Rhoynish connection, in that match.  Ashara was one of Elia's ladies and I think present at Aegon's birth.  Potentially,the person that Rhaegar is speaking to in Dany's vision.  The notion that a bleeding star marks the birth is open to interpretation. 

I agree that Ashara being one of Elia's ladies seems important, and I believe there's an SSM where GRRM says something to the effect that Ashara wasn't nailed down in Starfall, and that they have boats in Dorne, so he's all but explicitly telling us that we'll eventually learn more about her actions during the Rebellion.

My three guesses as to the significance are:
- If the place with the Red Door is actually in Dorne, she had some role in that conspiracy (which would go toward your theory that Dany is actually Ashara's daughter
- If Aegon VI is the real deal, Ashara is the one that helped swap him out of KL, and she's possibly still alive to vouch for his identity
- Ashara knew something about Lyanna's disappearance, and she (or one of her servants) is the one that tipped Eddard off and prompted his journey into the Red Mountains

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Spoiler

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel (bone) pits.” take up arms against the silver queen."

 

Something tells me that Euron is talking about Bran:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

The light dwindled again. Small as she was, the child-who-was-not-a-child moved quickly when she wanted. As Hodor thumped after her, something crunched beneath his feet. His halt was so sudden that Meera and Jojen almost slammed into his back.

"Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.

The last part of their dark journey was the steepest. Hodor made the final descent on his arse, bumping and sliding downward in a clatter of broken bones, loose dirt, and pebbles. The girl child was waiting for them, standing on one end of a natural bridge above a yawning chasm. Down below in the darkness, Bran heard the sound of rushing water. An underground river.

 

 

[Essan]

On 8/21/2019 at 8:52 PM, Black Crow said:

A little tranquility and remembrance of the local house rules here could be a good thing. 

And just for the record my own feeling is that the prophecies in GRRM's world are mince. Like the horoscopes at the back of newspapers they can mean what you want them to mean, in retrospect. The problems arise in text, when characters try to pull an Manx cat and try to manipulate events in order to make the prophecy come to pass, with unhappy results

Exactly   I'm not a very prolific poster, but I have said this (or similar) before. 

ASOIAF isn't (IMO) a story about the fulilment of an ancient prophecy - the standard fantasy trope - rather, it's about what happens when various characters believe in, and try themselves to fulfill, an (possibly quite irrelevant*) ancient prophecy.  And the tragic consequences thereof.

Whilst it's fun to discuss what a prophecy may mean and how it might be fulfilled, we have to be wary of falling into the very trap that has already caught Rhaegar, Cersei, Mel and others, with disastrous effects.    If Rhaegar had never heard of tPtwP, would any of the events of ASOIAF have ever even occurred?


* what made Rhaegar and Mel so sure that this 1,000 year+ prophesy was due to be fulfilled now?   I don;t think that's ever been explained?   Maybe it was actually fulfilled hundreds of years ago ..... ?

eta: actually, I suppose it was the Wood's Witch saying tPtwP would be born of Aerys and Rhaella's line?   In which case of course, it could be in another thousand years time?   Or maybe she was just saying something she thought they wanted to hear?   Doesn't explain why Mel is so certain now is the time for AA to be reborn though.

[Matthew.]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Something tells me that Euron is talking about Bran:

I think you're right (that's a really great interpretation of the Cave of Skulls), and this dream Jon has in ACOK potentially reinforces that read:

Quote

The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

I wonder whether or not Euron is going by written prophesy, or something that he himself has personally seen under the influence of Shade of the Evening; I would assume the latter.

[LynnS]

43 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I wonder whether or not Euron is going by written prophesy, or something that he himself has personally seen under the influence of Shade of the Evening; I would assume the latter.

By coincidence, I happened to be reading that chapter.  At first blush, I would say that Euron is speaking of himself, since he is up to some kind of blood magic and he may or may not be talking about his rival Dany.  He could be speaking of the prophecy of a hero born on the sea; which has several permutations; including himself, Dany and Bran.
 

Spoiler

However, since he intends to kill of the gods (and impale them on the iron throne; if the Damphair's  visions tell us anything);  including the small gods of the forest; I think he intends to be the breaker of the world. 

I'm inclined to think he has seen something influenced by shade of the evening.  It's disturbing that he has cut off Pyat Pree's legs and hung him from a rafter; perhaps mocking Bran's condition.

I'm not sure if we still have to use spoiler tags since it's been a few years now.

[alienarea]

If the gardener gets lazy he cannot control the garden anymore and gets overwhelmed by nature. 

IMHO that is what happened to the story I loved years ago. It has grown wild and cannot be controlled anymore unless you are willing to cut off radically.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

This whole thing at the Skirling Pass was odd, since Jon is separated in real time, from Bran (who is still hiding in the crypts at this point) when Ghost-Jon encounters Tree-Bran.  Bran is presenting as one of the 'old gods'; a greenseer and we are now seeing something of his power to slip the boundaries of time.  Becoming this powerful is still a future event in Bran's timeline, since he shows no such capability at the end of Dance.  Bran experiences this 'memory' during a wolf dream, not as a weirwood.

I think the smell of death harkens back to Jon's experience with Othor:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

Jon had no time to be afraid. He threw himself forward, shouting, bringing down the longsword with all his weight behind it. Steel sheared through sleeve and skin and bone, yet the sound was wrong somehow. The smell that engulfed him was so queer and cold he almost gagged. He saw arm and hand on the floor, black fingers wriggling in a pool of moonlight. Ghost wrenched free of the other hand and crept away, red tongue lolling from his mouth.

I think the smell comes from the wights at the entrance of the cave.  Summer smells them as well:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Hodor, stop," said Bran. "Hodor. Wait." Something was wrong. Summer smelled it, and so did he. Something bad. Something close. "Hodor, no, go back."

Coldhands was still climbing, and Hodor wanted to keep up. "Hodor, hodor, hodor," he grumbled loudly, to drown out Bran's complaints. His breathing had grown labored. Pale mist filled the air. He took a step, then another. The snow was almost waist deep and the slope was very steep. Hodor was leaning forward, grasping at rocks and trees with his hands as he climbed. Another step. Another. The snow Hodor disturbed slid downhill, starting a small avalanche behind them.

 

[LynnS]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

I'll beat my drum once more... here Bran refers to the crow rather than the 3 eyed crow.  I think we are given the identity of the crow here:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

They found Her Grace sewing by the fire, whilst her fool danced about to music only he could hear, the cowbells on his antlers clanging. "The crow, the crow," Patchface cried when he saw Jon. "Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh." Princess Shireen was curled up in a window seat, her hood drawn up to hide the worst of the greyscale that had disfigured her face.

If this is so, then Jon's power will be staggering, if at some point, he can also slip time and help Bran, in disguise as the crow.  I'm referring to the coma dream, where the crow takes Bran to the heart of winter (the reason Bran must live).  Bran and Jon seem to be integral to each other's survival.  Jon (the crow) opening Bran's 3rd eye and Bran doing the same for Jon.   I'm reminded of the ice dragon, the Ouroboros swallowing it's own tail, symbolically, time running in a loop.
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

Tyrion Lannister had claimed that most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it, but Jon was done with denials. He was who he was; Jon Snow, bastard and oathbreaker, motherless, friendless, and damned. For the rest of his life—however long that might be—he would be condemned to be an outsider, the silent man standing in the shadows who dares not speak his true name. Wherever he might go throughout the Seven Kingdoms, he would need to live a lie, lest every man's hand be raised against him. But it made no matter, so long as he lived long enough to take his place by his brother's side and help avenge his father.

He remembered Robb as he had last seen him, standing in the yard with snow melting in his auburn hair. Jon would have to come to him in secret, disguised. He tried to imagine the look on Robb's face when he revealed himself. His brother would shake his head and smile, and he'd say … he'd say …

 

I suspect this applies to Bran more than Robb.

[redriver]

I was at Titancon yesterday.The discussion I'm referring to was about the Wild Cards series but the notion of time travel came up in the context of time travel as a "superpower".

Basically he's very wary of it especially in the context of actually manipulating time or going back and changing events.I didn't record it but was left with the very strong impression that he doesn't like this idea at all.

I was relieved to hear it.I don't like time loop theory and neither does he.The repetitions and patterns are of human behaviour in time,not time itself.That's the story I'm reading.

[LynnS]

35 minutes ago, redriver said:

I was at Titancon yesterday.The discussion I'm referring to was about the Wild Cards series but the notion of time travel came up in the context of time travel as a "superpower".

Basically he's very wary of it especially in the context of actually manipulating time or going back and changing events.I didn't record it but was left with the very strong impression that he doesn't like this idea at all.

I was relieved to hear it.I don't like time loop theory and neither does he.The repetitions and patterns are of human behaviour in time,not time itself.That's the story I'm reading.

Fair enough.  I don't think the Ghost/Jon-Tree/Bran encounter is manipulating time or changing past events, in the broader scope of  say going back to the Tourney at Harrenhall, for example.  But I do think it's an example of the river not running in one direction for Jon and Bran.  The difference is that they are both alive in the present time frame.  I don't see Bran going back in time to change events that have already occurred. 

However, there is a wheel and a repetition of events which Bran and Dany must break. This vision of Euron's is very interesting:

Spoiler

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel (bone) pits.” take up arms against the silver queen."

The comet is something that has a long repetitious, periodic orbit.  Bespoke or to bespeak, to order or reserve something in advance, claim beforehand.  This sounds like the end days of revelation when:

Quote

The Abrahamic faiths maintain a linear cosmology, with end-time scenarios containing themes of transformation and redemption. In Judaism, the term "end of days" makes reference to the Messianic Age and includes an in-gathering of the exiled Jewish diaspora, the coming of the Messiah, the resurrection of the righteous, and the world to come. Some sects of Christianity depict the end time as a period of tribulation that precedes the second coming of Christ, who will face the Antichrist along with his power structure and usher in the Kingdom of God.

It also features a beast who receives his power from the dragon.  The identity of the beast is up for grabs, but I'd guess this is the anti-christ personna.  And perhaps something that Bran has already seen.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

You can't lie to greenseers because they see into your heart, the dark soul, as Mel puts it.  The heart of the north is Winterfell according to Davos.

Quote

Davos felt as though the lord had punched him in the belly. If he tells it true, my king is lost. Stannis Baratheon had desperate need of White Harbor. If Winterfell was the heart of the north, White Harbor was its mouth. Its firth had remained free of ice even in the depths of winter for centuries. With winter coming on, that could mean much and more. So could the city's silver. The Lannisters had all the gold of Casterly Rock, and had wed the wealth of Highgarden. King Stannis's coffers were exhausted. I must try, at least. There may be some way that I can stop this marriage. "I have to reach White Harbor," he said. "Your lordship, I beg you, help me."

What does it mean to break the world, unless you have to break it's hinges?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Jon did not deny it. "The Wall is no place for a woman."

"You are wrong. I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world." Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. "This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?"

 

[Black Crow]

31 minutes ago, redriver said:

I was at Titancon yesterday.The discussion I'm referring to was about the Wild Cards series but the notion of time travel came up in the context of time travel as a "superpower".

Basically he's very wary of it especially in the context of actually manipulating time or going back and changing events.I didn't record it but was left with the very strong impression that he doesn't like this idea at all.

I was relieved to hear it.I don't like time loop theory and neither does he.The repetitions and patterns are of human behaviour in time,not time itself.That's the story I'm reading.

I'm pleased to hear it and I'm also mindful that a long time ago he said that we're not going to see actual Gods tripping about on Westeros. To my mind time travel and using it to manipulate events is pretty god-like to me.

[Melifeather]

40 minutes ago, redriver said:

I was at Titancon yesterday.The discussion I'm referring to was about the Wild Cards series but the notion of time travel came up in the context of time travel as a "superpower".

Basically he's very wary of it especially in the context of actually manipulating time or going back and changing events.I didn't record it but was left with the very strong impression that he doesn't like this idea at all.

I was relieved to hear it.I don't like time loop theory and neither does he.The repetitions and patterns are of human behaviour in time,not time itself.That's the story I'm reading.

First of all, the discussion was about Wild Cards and not ASOIAF. Second of all the time loops in ASOIAF are not time travel. Nobody is going back in time and changing anything. Sure, Bloodraven and Bran have witnessed the past, but you cannot change the past. It's over and done. What I have always asserted is that history repeats itself, but if you can control where and who the historic events happen, you might be able to change the future.

[LynnS]

28 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

First of all, the discussion was about Wild Cards and not ASOIAF. Second of all the time loops in ASOIAF are not time travel. Nobody is going back in time and changing anything. Sure, Bloodraven and Bran have witnessed the past, but you cannot change the past. It's over and done. What I have always asserted is that history repeats itself, but if you can control where and who the historic events happen, you might be able to change the future.

Yes, I don't see any comic book characters with super powers in this story and we are not going to see mythological gods showing up.  But we do have at least one character who will be made god-like.  I hate when Martin says stuff like this.  He has introduced the notion of slippery time and he created the greenseers.  He says his characters are not 'gods' in the colloquial sense, but he has given them god-like powers.  For those who don't understand those powers, they are gods.

[redriver]

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I don't see any comic book characters with super powers in this story and we are not going to see mythological gods showing up.  But we do have at least one character who will be made god-like.  I hate when Martin says stuff like this.  He has introduced the notion of slippery time and he created the greenseers.  He says his characters are not 'gods' in the colloquial sense, but he has given them god-like powers.  For those who don't understand those powers, they are gods.

To try to clarify,these are my unrecorded impressions of the talk,so I may have run away with the wrong impression.Time travel powers do exist in Wild Cards but Martin moderates heavily what they can do or not in his "shared universe".

In this story time is linear.Time's arrow points to the future.A character,(Bran) can go backwards and witness events,seemingly anywhere.That's his superpower.

Time itself cannot be changed,how characters act can.

Will see if I can obtain a transcript or some such to clarify.

 

31 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

First of all, the discussion was about Wild Cards and not ASOIAF. Second of all the time loops in ASOIAF are not time travel. Nobody is going back in time and changing anything. Sure, Bloodraven and Bran have witnessed the past, but you cannot change the past. It's over and done. What I have always asserted is that history repeats itself, but if you can control where and who the historic events happen, you might be able to change the future.

I seem to recall an assertion by you that the wheel of time was reset at Harrenhal.As in 

time

 

itself

and everyone is destined to live some sort of inverted parallel of history until momooomoo comes along or Dr Strange.

Are you retracting that?No real agency there.Everyone is micro plastic stuck in the wheel of time.

No need to explore the human heart in conflict.Or point.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, redriver said:

To try to clarify,these are my unrecorded impressions of the talk,so I may have run away with the wrong impression.Time travel powers do exist in Wild Cards but Martin moderates heavily what they can do or not in his "shared universe".

Yes, limited to Jon and Bran and only in relation to each other.  Specifically, the ability to communicate with each other.

I could do with a reprise of your essay on Winterfell.  Have you changed or modified your thinking on it in any way?

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I hate when Martin says stuff like this.  He has introduced the notion of slippery time and he created the greenseers. 

This is the criticism of GRRM that I've raised in relation to time altering as well--I don't think it would be good for the novel, and I'd like to hope it won't come in to play, yet GRRM didn't need to frame Bran III ADWD the way that he did; at the moment where Bran is trying to talk to Eddard, and Eddard seems to react, that passage could have just as easily been written with Eddard giving no reaction whatsoever, and Bran being overwhelmed with futility.

I really don't like that even the slightest bit of ambiguity was introduced in the first place.