Heresy 226 of wolves, dragons and other familiars

[Melifeather]

43 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm still not sure about the fiery sword, the red sword of justice or why the Reed's include fire in their oath.

The only other time fire and ice is invoked is during Drogo's funeral preparations:

Seems apparent that "ice and fire" are directions equivocal to north and south which does imply that it means Stark and Dayne.

[Lady Rhodes]

51 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Crannogman's oath of allegiance:

Where does this come from?  I am not trying to dismiss it, but I don't recall reading it.

I have a theory that I have been working on for a while, but it wasn't until this thread that I pieced something together. @Feather Crystal and I have discussed at length the idea of an "inner" Kingsguard and that the Tourney of Harrenhal was some sort of meeting. In Meera's retelling of the events, she states that Rhaegar sang a song that made the wolf maid cry and then a black brother urged people to join the Night's Watch.  At first reading, I took it as a blanket recalling of events (This happened, this happened, this happened, etc).  Now, I read it to mean that Rhaegar was singing a song to help encourage people to join the Night's Watch.

There are three things that I have decided on after reading this particular thread:

1. The intermixing of blood must be one tenet of the prophecy - particularly Stark, Dayne, and Targaryen. I think the "child of three" in Daenerys' vision in the HotU refers to three children being born out of a secret group (see more below).

2. Parts of the prophecies have been lost to time - I think both Azor Ahai, Nissa Nissa, and someone else need to be born.  My first thought was the Great Other, but I am less inclined to think that now.

3. There is a secret group must consist of the same number of people to mimic the Last Hero and his companions. So, Rhaegar plus 12 other people. To be clear, I don't think this interpretation was correct or necessary but I think Rhaegar thought it was. I think the secret group includes the inner Kingsguard of Oswell Whent, Arthur Dayne, and Llewyn Martell, Elia Martell, possibly Jon Connington, and Lyanna Stark was brought into the fold. But we are still missing 6 people if I am right.

[Melifeather]

11 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I have a theory that I have been working on for a while, but it wasn't until this thread that I pieced something together. @Feather Crystal and I have discussed at length the idea of an "inner" Kingsguard and that the Tourney of Harrenhal was some sort of meeting.

   Are you sure it was me?

Somebody call an ambulance. It seems that I have lost my mind. 

[Lady Rhodes]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

   Are you sure it was me?

Somebody call an ambulance. It seems that I have lost my mind. 

I thought it was you! Now I am second guessing myself...I don't know if we agree necessarily, but (whoever it was) I talked to about it at some length, many months ago.

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Where does this come from?  I am not trying to dismiss it, but I don't recall reading it. 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught. "May your winters be short and your summers bountiful," he said. That was usually a good thing to say. "Rise. I'm Brandon Stark."

 

 

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

3. There is a secret group must consist of the same number of people to mimic the Last Hero and his companions. So, Rhaegar plus 12 other people. To be clear, I don't think this interpretation was correct or necessary but I think Rhaegar thought it was. I think the secret group includes the inner Kingsguard of Oswell Whent, Arthur Dayne, and Llewyn Martell, Elia Martell, possibly Jon Connington, and Lyanna Stark was brought into the fold. But we are still missing 6 people if I am right.

I've wondered about the 12 companions as well, but on the ice side of things.  I go with the oath of the Night Watch:  whomever represents the sword, the shield and the horn, make up 3 of the group.  I've come to think of Jon (sword), Jaime (shield) and Sam (horn) as taking those places.  The 9 additional companions are represented as iron swords on the crown of the King of Winter; or by the 9 trees were Jon and Sam take their vows.  If Jon is a new version of the Night King; the 9 may be brothers bound by sorcery of some sort.  The 13h 'companion' is the dog/direwolf in my head canon.

[Lady Rhodes]

Just now, LynnS said:

Jaime (shield)

I am unsure why Jaime is included in this group, since he is not a member of the Night's Watch. Care to elaborate?

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

If Jon is a new version of the Night King

Well, we don't know exactly what form the "Night King" is going to take, if any.

As discussed, I think there are iterations of the Long Night, and that we are looking at Long Night Part III. The first was Azor Ahai and his companions; second was the Night's King/13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. I believe that the sacrificed Nissa Nissa from part one became the Lady Other whom the 13th Lord Commander fell in love with.  I think there is a Prince and a Princess that was Promised, and one is going to have to sacrifice the other - and the sacrifice will become the next Great Other. Like a wheel, the cycle keeps repeating. AA sacrifices NN, NN becomes an Other, NN meets the Night's King, the Night's King becomes Great Other, etc.

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I thought it was you! Now I am second guessing myself...I don't know if we agree necessarily, but (whoever it was) I talked to about it at some length, many months ago.

I've got a lot of strong opinions on all of the topics you've touched on, so I guess we could have talked about them, but I would have taken a different position on nearly everything.  

I'm all about reading between the lines and seeing a different story hidden amongst the parallels, symbolism, and metaphors.

I think the "story" that Meera and Jojen repeated to Bran was more allegory than factual. The use of "wolfmaid", "quiet wolf", and "knight of skulls and kisses", etc, is symbolic even if they could be identified as actual people. The whole thing feels like a mythological tale about a constellation or something similar, and I think it's actually an oral history told in the style of the Children of the Forest who I also believe crafted the Azor Ahai tale to explain how their actions broke the world. The part about "praying for a way to win" seems to encompass a larger meaning than simply Howland finding a way to win as a knight. 

The "sad song" that Rhaegar was singing - in my opinion - is an allegory for his promise of "Camelot" if he could just gather enough support. He certainly made the "wolfmaid" "sniffle", because his altruistic pursuit cost Lyanna her life - it was the thorns underneath the beautiful roses.

[Lady Rhodes]

@Feather Crystal I have always enjoyed our disagreements

I thought you of all people, though, would have liked my thoughts on the wheel and cyclical nature of the Long Night and inversions regarding the reincarnation of the Great Other. It was you that got me thinking in such a way!

[LynnS]

32 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I am unsure why Jaime is included in this group, since he is not a member of the Night's Watch. Care to elaborate?

I can see Jaime being sent to the Wall at some point.  The KG are essentially shields.  This is embodied by the table in the LC's room:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

The table itself was old weirwood, pale as bone, carved in the shape of a huge shield supported by three white stallions. By tradition the Lord Commander sat at the top of the shield, and the brothers three to a side, on the rare occasions when all seven were assembled. The book that rested by his elbow was massive; two feet tall and a foot and a half wide, a thousand pages thick, fine white vellum bound between covers of bleached white leather with gold hinges and fastenings. The Book of the Brothers was its formal name, but more often it was simply called the White Book.

As for Jon, I can see him as the sword easily enough and Sam as the horn.  But nobody else stands out as the shield for me, except for Jaime.

The bound brothers, well...

"One King to rule them all and in the darkness bind them." -lol

I agree the Night King story will be stripped of it's mythology at some point and we'll get to the reality of the story.

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Feather Crystal I have always enjoyed our disagreements

I thought you of all people, though, would have liked my thoughts on the wheel and cyclical nature of the Long Night and inversions regarding the reincarnation of the Great Other. It was you that got me thinking in such a way!

I do strive to disagree without being disagreeable! Everyone's thoughts deserve respect. Oh, most definitely agree with a wheel of time and a cyclical history that will bring about a second long night, and the new god that will be born. I think LynnS is correct in identifying Bran - who to Melisandre would be the Great Other.

[Lady Rhodes]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

Oh, most definitely agree with a wheel of time and a cyclical history that will bring about a second long night, and the new god that will be born. I think LynnS is correct in identifying Bran - who to Melisandre would be the Great Other.

Oh! This reminded me of what made me think of all of this to begin with.  Months ago, I created a thread asking Why the Others have returned now? My new thoughts are centered around Dawn - as long as someone wields Dawn, the Others stay dormant? Thus, when Arthur Dayne died, they started to return?

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Oh! This reminded me of what made me think of all of this to begin with.  Months ago, I created a thread asking Why the Others have returned now? My new thoughts are centered around Dawn - as long as someone wields Dawn, the Others stay dormant? Thus, when Arthur Dayne died, they started to return?

Nah. The Others have returned (and dragon eggs hatched) because the Wall is leaking magic back into the world. The wards holding the spells in place are ancient and worn like a threadbare rug. The Wall is the hinge that holds the door to magic closed, but it has been opened a crack, and very soon it will be wide open.

[Lady Rhodes]

16 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Wall is leaking magic back into the world.

But why is it leaking? I don't dispute what you are saying, but there is still the questions of why is it happening now. What caused that?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Nah. The Others have returned (and dragon eggs hatched) because the Wall is leaking magic back into the world. The wards holding the spells in place are ancient and worn like a threadbare rug. The Wall is the hinge that holds the door to magic closed, but it has been opened a crack, and very soon it will be wide open

But why did they come before then? Because the wall wasn't built yet? 

I think this may be a reason as to why they have never gotten through the wall - & still haven't as of yet, but like you said maybe the magic is weakening & they will be able to get through it soon enough. But why have they returned? Are they "sensing" that the magic is weakening & thus approaching the wall? 

24 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Oh! This reminded me of what made me think of all of this to begin with.  Months ago, I created a thread asking Why the Others have returned now? My new thoughts are centered around Dawn - as long as someone wields Dawn, the Others stay dormant? Thus, when Arthur Dayne died, they started to return?

I like this idea. Or the idea of whatever that was keeping them at bay being removed & now they are returning. There are a couple things that have happened. There is no longer a Stark in WF which may have something to do with the Others returning IMO. Clearly the magic is returning to Westeros; Dany hatched dragons, Thoros brings people back to life, etc. Do the others bring the magic or does the magic bring the others? Or does something else entirely bring them both? 

[Lady Rhodes]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I like this idea. Or the idea of whatever that was keeping them at bay being removed & now they are returning. There are a couple things that have happened. There is no longer a Stark in WF which may have something to do with the Others returning IMO. Clearly the magic is returning to Westeros; Dany hatched dragons, Thoros brings people back to life, etc. Do the others bring the magic or does the magic bring the others? Or does something else entirely bring them both? 

Thanks! I like your line of thinking here, but we have to remember - from Jon's chapters (plus the prologue!) in Game we learn that there have been rangers missing, and the Others have returned prior to Ned leaving Winterfell and Dany's dragons hatching.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Thanks! I like your line of thinking here, but we have to remember - from Jon's chapters (plus the prologue!) in Game we learn that there have been rangers missing, and the Others have returned prior to Ned leaving Winterfell and Dany's dragons hatching.  

Yes they have! It's something that nags at me - there always needing to be a Stark in Winterfell - so I am always looking for reasons for it. 

The Others seem to get increasingly close to wall & humanity. I would assume it started out only affecting wildlings, then rangers started going missing, then the attack on the fist etc. This may just be me speculating but it doesn't seem like they are just arriving there from somewhere else, it's like they have lain dormant all these years & now have been awaken. 

How long has Arthur been dead at the beginning of Asoaif? 16-17 years? I wonder what, if anything happened to indicate their return prior to what we see in the prologue. It would seem if no one wielding Dawn has allowed them to return (an idea I like very much btw) that there would have been some minuscule signs even then. At any rate it fits nicely -The idea that Dawn & The Sword of the Morning v2 are needed to defeat the Long Night.

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But why did they come before then? Because the wall wasn't built yet? 

I think this may be a reason as to why they have never gotten through the wall - & still haven't as of yet, but like you said maybe the magic is weakening & they will be able to get through it soon enough. But why have they returned? Are they "sensing" that the magic is weakening & thus approaching the wall? 

I like this idea. Or the idea of whatever that was keeping them at bay being removed & now they are returning. There are a couple things that have happened. There is no longer a Stark in WF which may have something to do with the Others returning IMO. Clearly the magic is returning to Westeros; Dany hatched dragons, Thoros brings people back to life, etc. Do the others bring the magic or does the magic bring the others? Or does something else entirely bring them both? 

Magic starting leaving the world around 200 years ago.   But the Wall was built around 10,000 years ago.

Something changed near the start of the series to bring magic back, and something changed 200 years prior to make it go away. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Magic starting leaving the world around 200 years ago.   But the Wall was built around 10,000 years ago.

Something changed near the start of the series to bring magic back, and something changed 200 years prior to make it go away. 

Yeah, So I wonder what it was. Any speculations? 

 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

But why is it leaking? I don't dispute what you are saying, but there is still the questions of why is it happening now. What caused that?

There are a number of things that seem to explain what happened. First is the Azor Ahai story, which I believe is the oral history as told by the Children themselves. They liken the three times they used magic to fight back as being three swords:

1) the sword tempered in water: the hammer of waters that broke the Arm of Dorne and washed away the Moat Cailin fortifications at the Neck.

2) the sword tempered in the heart of a lion - they fought back and created the white walkers. When it was over they sealed the door to magic shut by warding the hinge upon the Wall. The wheel of time was placed into a continual loop, and historic events began to repeat themselves.

3) the sword tempered in the heart of Nissa Nissa - they sacrificed their own blood to summon dragons and it "broke" their "moon". The name Nissa Nissa equates to moon moon, meaning they viewed Planetos as a sister to the Moon. The blade they forged caused the Doom, pushed the Targaryens to first move to Dragonstone, and then to invade Westeros. The timeline is long, but the Children live long lives, and their greenseers see events as the trees do: past, present, and future are but a flicker.

Aegon the Conqueror arrived around the time Harren the Black built Harrenhal. It's said he cut down forests of weirwoods to construct his monstrous castle. Once the seven kingdoms were united, the door to magic was reclosed. It took 150 years for the dragons to die out, but the damage to Westeros was already great, but the wheel of time kept repeating historic events. GRRM gave us an example of how repeating a historic event produces an alternate ending by giving us the example of when JonCon, Young Griff, and Tyrion drifted upon the Shy Maid under the bridge of sorrows. The first time through they were blessed by a vision of the turtle and they passed undetected, but the second time loop was cursed - stone men dropped down upon them. Dalla's quote that The Horned Lord said sorcery is a double edged sword without a hilt. Jon followed that up with, a sword without a hilt is still a sword - which is likely how the Children viewed their actions. They understood that there would be unforeseen consequences, but they felt drastic measures were needed to stop humans from chopping down the weirwoods.

Summoning the dragons loosened the aging wards, and they were further damaged shortly after Howland prayed for a way to win. Bloodraven reset the wheel of time during the tourney at Harrenhal. The shock to the wheel was like a lightning bolt and it nearly ripped the door to magic right off its hinges. The wheel of time began to repeat rapidly with some events having different outcomes. Here are some examples:

1) Lord Whent's daughter started out the tourney as the queen of love and beauty. Her title was defended by her brothers. Lyanna stands up to three squires to defend her father's man, and later combines with Howland, with the help of her brothers, to create the Knight of the Laughing Tree to defeat three knights, and then becomes the queen of love and beauty.

2) Howland prayed (looked) for a way to win, and participates in the Knight of the Laughing Tree. He prayed to the old gods that reside in the weirwood trees. King Aerys sends Rhaegar to look for the Knight of the Laughing Tree. He finds the Laughing Tree shield hanging in a tree.

3) Lyanna was abducted not long after the tourney. Many readers assume that she later produced a "dragon egg/treasure" - Jon. Prior to the tourney, there was an attempted kidnapping of Princess Elia. Ser Hightower was injured, but the bandits only got away with "treasure" - either gold or even perhaps a dragon egg.

4) The false marriage claim between Rhaegar and Lyanna is a parallel to the marriage of Rhaegar to Elia.

5) The execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark is a parallel of the Jeyne-Tarbeck massacres.

6) Jon Arryn's refusal to give up Robert and Ned is a parallel to the Defiance of Duskendale.

7) Robert's Rebellion is a parallel to the War of the Ninepenny Kings. It is also a repeat of a very old Westerosi tale of a Storm Lord stealing Elenei from her god-like parents. All of the wedding guests were killed, as were Robert's parents.

8) The fever dream about the tower of joy is a parallel to the Tragedy at Summerhal.

Jumping ahead a bit...after Daenerys's successfully hatched dragon eggs in Drogo's funeral pyre, she broke the fast-spinning wheel of time and flipped it. Events that normally unfolded in the west began occurring in the east and the north got turned upside down.

9) The return of white walkers reversed the attempt by the wildings when they last tried a mass invasion over the Wall in 226 led by Raymun Redbeard, but they were defeated at Long Lake by a host led by Lord Willam Stark. The wildings have now successfully gotten past the Wall, and I believe Stannis is now situated near Long Lake.

10) The return of dragons is a reversal of the death of the last dragon which occurred in 153.

11) the rebellions of Renly, Stannis, Rob Stark, and Balon Greyjoy (wars of the Five Kings) are repeats of the First, Second, Third, and Fourth Blackfyre Rebellions.

12) The rise of Young Griff and Daenerys' rise to power in Meereen are soon to be a repeat of the Dance of the Dragons.

13) Cersei's agreement to allow the Faith Militant to have weapons will likely trigger a repeat of the Faith Militant Uprising of 41-48 AC.

14) Victarion's attack on the Shield Islands was a repeat of Aegon's Conquest, only on the west side of Westeros versus the east. The Greyjoy's conquest is not over yet. Euron sent Victarion to Meereen to collect the dragons.

15) Stannis declared his claim to the Iron Throne from the Wall and rallied the support of the North. This is a repeat of King Sherrit's curse which he called down upon the Andals from his seat at the Nightfort. Stannis has claimed the Nightfort as his seat and Selyce is on her way over there to oversee repairs.

16) The mutiny against Lord Commander Jon Snow is a repeat of the mutiny against the Nights King. Jon was dying at the end of Dance, but I think he'll soon be resurrected as an undead creature/monster like Coldhands and become the Nights King. He'll bind the Watch to his will and descend upon Winterfell to take back his family's seat from the current Lord of Winterfell who claims to have the King Beyond the Wall in a cage. Sort of a jumbled mixture of details from the original Nights King story.

I know this is getting long, but I haven't even gotten into the titled chapters yet, which I believe tell two stories. The first is the regular one, with the second hiding among the parallels, symbolism, and metaphors. Very early on in the Cat of the Canals chapter it's pretty clear that the hidden parallels are the events that occurred in the Riverlands leading into the Rebellion. You can read my analysis here. 

The Sealord in Cat of the Canals is a parallel to the Lord of Winterfell while his palace represents Winterfell. The Canal of Heroes nearby are the crypts of Winterfell. Arya/Cat says to herself: I am a statue, like the Sealords that stand along the Canal of the Heroes. It's interesting to note that the Sealord's palace has a lightning bolt upon its highest tower.

The following are a couple passages that I think tell that second hidden story about the condition of the wards holding the door to magic shut, and Beric Dondarrion whose very nickname the "Lightning Lord" is essentially assigning blame to Bloodraven. Everything about Beric is meant to echo Bloodraven - right down to his missing eye and sitting in a throne of roots under the hill with the weirwood stumps. Much of the text about the Lightning Lord are details that symbolically apply to Bloodraven's actions taken against the Riverlands when he forced a sudden repeat of winter to occur during the Year of the False Spring:
 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Arya VI

Thoros brought the Hound his swordbelt. "Does a dog have honor?" the priest asked. "Lest you think to cut your way free of here, or seize some child for a hostage . . . Anguy, Dennet, Kyle, feather him at the first sign of treachery." Only when the three bowmen had notched their shafts did Thoros hand Clegane the belt.

The Hound ripped the sword free and threw away the scabbard. The Mad Huntsman gave him his oaken shield, all studded with iron and painted yellow, the three black dogs of Clegane emblazoned upon it. The boy Ned helped Lord Beric with his own shield, so hacked and battered that the purple lightning and the scatter of stars upon it had almost been obliterated.

But when the Hound made to step toward his foe, Thoros of Myr stopped him. "First we pray." He turned toward the fire and lifted his arms. "Lord of Light, look down upon us."

 

The "shield" is in reference to the wards upon the Wall. 

 

Quote

 

AFFC Alayne I

"There is no need. It is plain that he has won." Bronze Yohn's grey eyes considered Petyr Baelish. "I like it not, but it would seem you have your year. Best use it well, my lord. Not all of us are fooled." He opened the door so forcefully that he all but wrenched it off its hinges.

 

 

There are many more passages that seem to refer to the condition of the door to magic. We talked about it in length in Heresy 222 Vindication. You could re-read that thread, but I've laid out a number of other details in this post.

 

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But why did they come before then? Because the wall wasn't built yet? 

I think this may be a reason as to why they have never gotten through the wall - & still haven't as of yet, but like you said maybe the magic is weakening & they will be able to get through it soon enough. But why have they returned? Are they "sensing" that the magic is weakening & thus approaching the wall? 

I like this idea. Or the idea of whatever that was keeping them at bay being removed & now they are returning. There are a couple things that have happened. There is no longer a Stark in WF which may have something to do with the Others returning IMO. Clearly the magic is returning to Westeros; Dany hatched dragons, Thoros brings people back to life, etc. Do the others bring the magic or does the magic bring the others? Or does something else entirely bring them both? 

The Others have already breached the Wall. The wildlings are the source of the white walkers, and the majority of the free folk are stationed in various castles along the south side of the Wall. IMO the blizzard is evidence that the Wall is disintegrating and blowing away in the wind. Its not because the wildlings got through, but rather all the things that were done to it since Harren built Harrenhal, and the damage accelerated rapidly after the Harrenhal tourney.