Heresy 226 of wolves, dragons and other familiars

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, corbon said:

ou said it was allegorical, possibly not entirely factual, and really just an old gods story.

I'm saying it may indeed have allegorical purposes (or may not), but it actually happened and there is no indication any part of either story is not factual, at least as best both story tellers are aware.

Well I misspoke then, because I do believe the knight of the laughing tree was an instance of consensual skinchanging. 

Lets agree on Meera’s version having allegorical purposes. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Capricious Crone said:

Hello, I've been lurking for quite some time and thought I'd drop in with this completely off the wall thought about what happened to the Night's King...a completely crackpot thought...

What if the Black Gate didn't exist when the Night's King reigned?

What if the Black Gate IS the Night's King trapped for all eternity to guard the Nightfort's passageway through the Wall (forced to uphold his Night's Watch vows in a sense as his ultimate punishment).

What if the 'tear' the gate dropped on Bran Stark as he passed through was the Night's King shedding a tear...perhaps a tear of sadness for what the 'door' knows/imagines Bran's fate will be...to become wedded to a tree, eventually absorbed by that tree...a parallel to the Night's King becoming a semi-sentient weirwood door. (I don't know if the door is semi-sentient but it makes for a nice parallel with Bran's potential fate.)

Feather Crystal does this fit in at all with your Wheel of Time theory?

We have discussed the idea of the Black Gate being the entombed Nights King before. I’ll do some digging to see if I can locate some previous discussions. (this is proving laborious as google just doesn't seem to work as it used to!)

The steps along the wall and the round shape of the well - actually I do seem to recall that it has an octagonal shape - anyways, wells are inverted towers and have symbolic meaning as being a portal to the underworld.

The gate itself is a mouth in a giant weirwood. The sapling rising up from the well might be an offshoot of the larger tree that is now encased in the Wall. It makes me wonder if any other weirwoods can be entered through their carved mouths?

The current Wall has other gates, Castle Black is the main one, but the older unused ones have been sealed closed with rocks and ice. The Black Gate may have been the main gate when the Nightfort was the main defensive castle. 

The Nights King ruled from the Nightfort and was caught sacrificing to the Others. IMO the Black Gate was already there. I’m more inclined to believe the Black Gate is the Grey King. There’s something about his story that makes me believe he was a priest that practiced magic - a wizard, if you will, maybe even a greenseer. Your idea that the tear was sympathy for Bran because it knew Bran was on his way to his imprisonment too seems to hint towards the gate being a greenseer also.

As for the wheel of time theory...the Wall is a hinge that holds the door to magic. The spells that hold the wards in place somehow are connected to the repeating of historic events and extended seasons. It’s all controlled by a greenseer - the spells and wards - currently by Bloodraven, and very soon by Bran. 

[LynnS]

This is the link for TWOW Theon sample chapter: http://archive.is/eoIl

The Pink Letter comes to mind when reading this chapter:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Bastard, was the only word written outside the scroll. No Lord Snow or Jon Snow or Lord Commander. Simply Bastard. And the letter was sealed with a smear of hard pink wax. "You were right to come at once," Jon said. You were right to be afraid. He cracked the seal, flattened the parchment, and read.

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Several options have presented themselves for the author of the Pink Letter, including Mance and Melisandre.
On reading the Theon chapter; I wonder if the letter comes from Stannis or someone in his camp given the information in the Pink Letter:

Spoiler

- Theon tells Asha everything except about Mance and the spearwives when he meets her. 

- If the latter is a fake, then Ramsey doesn't know about fArya going to the Wall with the NW and Izembaro.  This is done in secret by Stannis as well. 

- Whether Ramsey defeated Stannis in seven days of fighting is dubious.  Theon tells Stannis that Ramsey will only send out half his force made of green boys and grey beards.  Those he can afford to lose.

- I'm not sure that Ramsey has ravens that will fly to Castle Black at this point; but Stannis does.

- I think it's possible that Asha has convinced Stannis to come up with this ploy and Stannis has little compunction when it comes to Jon's vows to the NW. 

 

 

[LynnS]

http://web.archive.org/web/20150216163605/http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

Arya's sample chapter.  Lemon trees are as scarce as hen's teeth in Braavos.  So much for the house with the red door and lemon tree.

Spoiler

 

 

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

 

 

[Melifeather]

@LynnS You may read all the books including sample chapters online here: https://gameofthronesfree.com/got/read-online/

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is the link for TWOW Theon sample chapter: http://archive.is/eoIl

The Pink Letter comes to mind when reading this chapter:

Several options have presented themselves for the author of the Pink Letter, including Mance and Melisandre.
On reading the Theon chapter; I wonder if the letter comes from Stannis or someone in his camp given the information in the Pink

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Letter:

- Theon tells Asha everything except about Mance and the spearwives when he meets her. 

- If the latter is a fake, then Ramsey doesn't know about fArya going to the Wall with the NW and Izembaro.  This is done in secret by Stannis as well. 

- Whether Ramsey defeated Stannis in seven days of fighting is dubious.  Theon tells Stannis that Ramsey will only send out half his force made of green boys and grey beards.  Those he can afford to lose.

- I'm not sure that Ramsey has ravens that will fly to Castle Black at this point; but Stannis does.

- I think it's possible that Asha has convinced Stannis to come up with this ploy and Stannis has little compunction when it comes to Jon's vows to the NW. 

 

 

One of the glaring lies in the Pink Letter is the demise of Stannis and his army. The sample Theon chapter demonstrates that the battle hasn't even begun when Jon receives the letter. Unless GRRM has suddenly begun writing scenes from the past? Its a technique used in movies and tv shows and some books, but it hasn't really been utilized in ASOIAF other than in dreams or visions.

[redriver]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

One of the glaring lies in the Pink Letter is the demise of Stannis and his army. The sample Theon chapter demonstrates that the battle hasn't even begun when Jon receives the letter. Unless GRRM has suddenly begun writing scenes from the past? Its a technique used in movies and tv shows and some books, but it hasn't really been utilized in ASOIAF other than in dreams or visions.

The Theon chapter was meant to be in ADWD.It could well have,and probably did take place before Jon's last chapter.The blizzard just arriving at the Wall in Jon's chapter whereas it was already at Winterfell for several weeks supports this.

[LynnS]

40 minutes ago, redriver said:

The Theon chapter was meant to be in ADWD.It could well have,and probably did take place before Jon's last chapter.The blizzard just arriving at the Wall in Jon's chapter whereas it was already at Winterfell for several weeks supports this.

I'm not sure I believe that Ramsey has defeated Stannis at this point or that he has captured Mance.   We don't have a POV to support it yet. 

I'm inclined to think that the Pink Letter is a ploy to get reinforcements to Stannis and Mance may be involved.  It's possible he escaped in the confusion surrounding Theon and the spearwives.   Ramsey isn't going to benefit if the wildlings descend on Winterfell.  The wildlings would be fairly well provisioned while Ramsey is running out of provisions.  By the time it takes the wildlings to reach Winterfell, Ramsey will be in a less favorable positiion.  I can see a reprise of the King in the North joining with the King Beyond the Wall to retake Winterfell.  Stannis would be in Mance's debt.

As for the blizzard, I'm conscious that the storm emanates for Winterfell first and there seems to be some magical implications.  The blizzard at the Wall arrives from the North rather than the South.

[Melifeather]

41 minutes ago, redriver said:

The Theon chapter was meant to be in ADWD.It could well have,and probably did take place before Jon's last chapter.The blizzard just arriving at the Wall in Jon's chapter whereas it was already at Winterfell for several weeks supports this.

Chapter 62 is the Asha chapter where the blizzard is getting worse and worse during the 300 mile march from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell. It's seven chapters before Jon's stabbing chapter, so I think several of these chapters are all occurring at the same time. Sort of like a, meanwhile, somewhere between Deepwood Motte and Winterfell....

The Theon sample chapter has Stannis camped outside Winterfell by a lake - I want to say Long Lake, but I'm not positive that's the correct one, but I don't think this chapter is out of order, unless you think the Asha chapter is also out of order?

[redriver]

20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Chapter 62 is the Asha chapter where the blizzard is getting worse and worse during the 300 mile march from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell. It's seven chapters before Jon's stabbing chapter, so I think several of these chapters are all occurring at the same time. Sort of like a, meanwhile, somewhere between Deepwood Motte and Winterfell....

The Theon sample chapter has Stannis camped outside Winterfell by a lake - I want to say Long Lake, but I'm not positive that's the correct one, but I don't think this chapter is out of order, unless you think the Asha chapter is also out of order?

You can use the count of days during Ashas's journey,as well of estimates of say Tycho's ride from the Wall in increasingly bad weather as markers.Here's a link from reddit-not sure how rigorous it is.There is another timeline link within it.Both agree Theon 1 before assassination.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3im1qu/spoilers_all_mapping_out_a_chronology_of_events/

 

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, redriver said:

You can use the count of days during Ashas's journey,as well of estimates of say Tycho's ride from the Wall in increasingly bad weather as markers.Here's a link from reddit-not sure how rigorous it is.There is another timeline link within it.Both agree Theon 1 before assassination.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/3im1qu/spoilers_all_mapping_out_a_chronology_of_events/

 

I haven't looked at your link yet, but we have discussed the origin of the blizzard as beginning at Winterfell, so the closer you get to Winterfell the worse the blizzard becomes. Even if I think the blizzard is actually the Wall disintegrating, the underground tunnel leading to Winterfell has been left unwarded - there is, after all, no Stark in Winterfell. No ward means there's nothing stopping the magic from exiting out through the crypts.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

everal options have presented themselves for the author of the Pink Letter, including Mance and Melisandre.
On reading the Theon chapter; I wonder if the letter comes from Stannis or someone in his camp given the information in the Pink Letter:

Assuming Ramsay didn't write the letter, my top two culprits are Stannis or Mance (I know this is really not going out on a limb).  

To further the analogy of Jon as a Sword, we have a long history of people trying to prove themselves worthy by drawing a sword from its "prison".  Of course the most famous being Arthur drawing the sword from the stone.  But an earlier Norse tale dealt with the sword Gram which was embedded in the tree, Barnstokkr.  King Siggeir covets it, but its the hero, Sigmund who draws it from the tree.  Later the sword is broken by Sigmund, who gives it to his wife, Borghild to hold the pieces for their son in the hopes that it can be reforged.  And of course the sword is reforged and given it to Sigmund's son Sigurd.  The reforged sword is now so powerful it can break an anvil into two pieces (does Anvil-breaker sound familiar?). 

In Wagner's ring cycle, the sword's name is Nothung.  It too is split in two, the pieces are then gathered up by the Valkyrie, Brunnhilde.

Either way, assuming that GRRM, like Tolkien before him, has been influenced by the Volsunga saga and Wagner's reinterpretation of it with the Ring Cycle, then we can sort of see some parallels in this tale.

The sword, Jon, has King Stannis try and pull him from his oath to the Wall.  King Stannis, who has been unsuccessful, up until he writes the pink letter.  Or perhaps Stannis remains unsuccessful and another king, the King Beyond the Wall, may be the one who successfully draws Jon from the Wall, if indeed Mance was the one who wrote the letter.

Jon, the sword, however, is broken in two after he violates his oath and plans on marching to Winterfell.  Perhaps part of his soul/psyche goes into Ghost (the hilt) and the other part becomes resurrected through fire: the blade aka the sword without a hilt aka the pointy end.

Now we have Val in the role of Brunnhilde who is in a position to try and gather up the pieces, perhaps later to help "reforge" Jon.

 

[redriver]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I haven't looked at your link yet, but we have discussed the origin of the blizzard as beginning at Winterfell, so the closer you get to Winterfell the worse the blizzard becomes. Even if I think the blizzard is actually the Wall disintegrating, the underground tunnel leading to Winterfell has been left unwarded - there is, after all, no Stark in Winterfell. No ward means there's nothing stopping the magic from exiting out through the crypts.

Fair enough but I'd be very surprised if the blizzard was anything to do with the Wall disintegrating (if it is) or the crypts.I'll go with the orthodox interpretation-it's from the sky.

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, redriver said:

Fair enough but I'd be very surprised if the blizzard was anything to do with the Wall disintegrating (if it is) or the crypts.I'll go with the orthodox interpretation-it's from the sky.

Not that its the only explanation, but what would be your idea for what "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" means then if not as a ward or shield for the Wall?

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Assuming Ramsay didn't write the letter, my top two culprits are Stannis or Mance (I know this is really not going out on a limb).  

To further the analogy of Jon as a Sword, we have a long history of people trying to prove themselves worthy by drawing a sword from its "prison".  Of course the most famous being Arthur drawing the sword from the stone.  But an earlier Norse tale dealt with the sword Gram which was embedded in the tree, Barnstokkr.  King Siggeir covets it, but its the hero, Sigmund who draws it from the tree.  Later the sword is broken by Sigmund, who gives it to his wife, Borghild to hold the pieces for their son in the hopes that it can be reforged.  And of course the sword is reforged and given it to Sigmund's son Sigurd.  The reforged sword is now so powerful it can break an anvil into two pieces (does Anvil-breaker sound familiar?). 

In Wagner's ring cycle, the sword's name is Nothung.  It too is split in two, the pieces are then gathered up by the Valkyrie, Brunnhilde.

Either way, assuming that GRRM, like Tolkien before him, has been influenced by the Volsunga saga and Wagner's reinterpretation of it with the Ring Cycle, then we can sort of see some parallels in this tale.

The sword, Jon, has King Stannis try and pull him from his oath to the Wall.  King Stannis, who has been unsuccessful, up until he writes the pink letter.  Or perhaps Stannis remains unsuccessful and another king, the King Beyond the Wall, may be the one who successfully draws Jon from the Wall, if indeed Mance was the one who wrote the letter.

Jon, the sword, however, is broken in two after he violates his oath and plans on marching to Winterfell.  Perhaps part of his soul/psyche goes into Ghost (the hilt) and the other part becomes resurrected through fire: the blade aka the sword without a hilt aka the pointy end.

Now we have Val in the role of Brunnhilde who is in a position to try and gather up the pieces, perhaps later to help "reforge" Jon.

 

Interesting.  I'm reminded that a good lie contains elements of the truth and this letter sounds like a very elaborate lie to me. 

[Black Crow]

10 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Not that its the only explanation, but what would be your idea for what "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" means then if not as a ward or shield for the Wall?

To guard what's really in the Winterfell crypts

[redriver]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

Not that its the only explanation, but what would be your idea for what "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" mean, then if not as a ward or shield for the Wall?

As the second line of defense against the Others primarily and yes,as protectors of the Wall but mainly in that if there is no Stark in Winterfell,as in no Lord or Lady who is a Stark in the eyes of the old gods,then Winter is Coming.

That the Night's Watch have pretty much broken their oath seems a given.The Wall is compromised now and the Others are close I would say.

But I don't think the Wall itself is contributing to the blizzard,especially via tunnels or crypts.That's too much like a bad Hollywood scene.

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

To guard what's really in the Winterfell crypts

Or perhaps as a sacrifice to prevent a Long Winter.  An analogy perhaps to the Prince of Pentos, a ruler who is to be sacrificed in the event that the weather turns bad.

Maybe, the person that Bran saw sacrificed to the Weirwood was a Stark of Winterfell.

[redriver]

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

To guard what's really in the Winterfell crypts

That too,even though they seem to have forgotten what they're guarding!

[Frey family reunion]

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Interesting.  I'm reminded that a good lie contains elements of the truth and this letter sounds like a very elaborate lie to me. 

Yes, and we know that Stannis hates lies (don't we?)  Of course Stannis may be becoming more Machiavellian as the tale progresses.

Mance on the other hand seems to revel in deception.