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Black Crow

Heresy 226 of wolves, dragons and other familiars

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

With all of this talk of swords, is it possible that Ice was a sword of the Others during the first Long Night, entrusted to the Stark’s for safe keeping? 

 

Aha!  I was just asking how the LH defeated the Others all by his lonesome.  A trial by combat perhaps, something echoed in the encounter between Waymar Royce and the Others in the prologue of GoT.  If so, then the original sword Ice could have been taken as a prize.  Whomever holds the sword becomes the new King of Winter?

Those darn crypts!  The swords remember.  LOL  Perhaps the presence of the sword at Winterfell accounts for the emanation of winter starting at Winterfell.

Edited by LynnS

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe. Would that mean the Starks are in league with the others then? They may have forgotten the history after all these years. I can't help but think of their foreboding house words "Winter is coming" though. It has always reminded me of a warning. Something possibly passed down from generation to generation. Something not as likely to get changed through the years, as would a story of the long night. Maybe the Others didn't give it to the Starks for safe keeping but rather the Starks took it. Or maybe it was always the Starks sword but the Others covet it? Just spit balling with ya.

Ah, I see what you are saying but that wasn’t what I meant. Entrusted was a poor word house in my part. I was thinking that maybe the Starks took the sword to prevent the Others from having it. I fully think that the Starks have a connection to the first Long Night, as their words Winter is Coming seem to suggest such. The other traditions that I recall the Stark having that differ from other families are the crypts with the iron sword over the grave - some type of ward? Is there. Blood sacrifice that has to be given to the weirwood/reflection pool, as Ned has a tendency to clean Ice there? 

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3 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Ah, I see what you are saying but that wasn’t what I meant. Entrusted was a poor word house in my part. I was thinking that maybe the Starks took the sword to prevent the Others from having it. I fully think that the Starks have a connection to the first Long Night, as their words Winter is Coming seem to suggest such. The other traditions that I recall the Stark having that differ from other families are the crypts with the iron sword over the grave - some type of ward? Is there. Blood sacrifice that has to be given to the weirwood/reflection pool, as Ned has a tendency to clean Ice there? 

Yes. Also there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. I agree the connections between the Starks & the others/long night is too strong to be coincidence. Good thing George takes decades to write his books, else we would have no time to ponder over it. :lol:

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

We're back to the problems of timelines again if Dawn is dragonsteel of some sort.  I'm still not certain that the Others made their first appearance contemporary with the Night King since the Wall is in existence.  Presumably the Wall was built to prevent the Others from advancing south when conditions permit after the LH defeated the Others.  Maybe on a 5000 years cycle?  Perhaps there have been two previous 'long nights' and we are coming up on the third.

I am of this persuasion myself.  In order for there to have been a "Night's King" at the Night Fort, there would have had to have been a Wall....which indicates the first Long Night had already occurred. In Storm, there is a passage (I think in a Bran chapter, but it may be in a later chapter, with Davos)  about the Night's King falling in love with a woman with pale skin and blue eyes.  I have wondered if Nissa Nissa, when stabbed by AA (In what I would call the 1st Long Night) turned into a female Other, which then fell in love with the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, causing Long Night Part II.

If I recall correctly, AA had 12 companions.  I am wondering if AA was the first lord commander of the Night's Watch and the last companion the 13th Lord Commander.

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54 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

If I recall correctly, AA had 12 companions.  I am wondering if AA was the first lord commander of the Night's Watch and the last companion the 13th Lord Commander.

The legend we're given about the last hero is that he did indeed have 12 companions and a dog.  All of whom died before him.  What happened to the LH after he defeated the Others is an open question.  Did he become Bran the Builder?

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5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

a dog. 

A direwolf? 

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

he did indeed have 12 companions and a dog.  All of whom died before him.

Perhaps they became a next-generation Other army.  Where does it say that they all died?  I don't recall that part. (Which, as a side note, it is no wonder that these myths have been lost to time. I can't even keep them straight! haha!)

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18 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I think there was a recent Q&A where GRRM essentially confirmed that Dawn was crafted from a falling star, which I'd always assumed to mean meteoric iron, but I guess it could be anything GRRM wants--a fantasy ore like mithril, something from a comet, etc.

If that's the case, it does raise certain questions under a Dawn = dragonsteel scenario.

One issue would be that House Dayne and Dawn do not appear to be widely and famously associated with the original Long Night and the Battle for the Dawn; granted, most of the oral history we've received comes from Old Nan, and presumably has a northern bias, but even so, it seems strange for nobody to have ever vocalized aloud that the first Sword of the Morning played an instrumental role in the Battle for the Dawn--and stranger still if that's the sort of detail that has been widely forgotten. 

Another issue would be how the tale of the LH intersects with the tale of Dawn and Starfall, and how all of that comes together chronologically with the Last Night and the Battle for the Dawn.

Hmm. I don't know, every time I feel like I'm starting to like a particular interpretation of dragonsteel, I play devil's advocate against myself, and then kind of reset back to square one.

I don't know if you're a believer in the wheel of time being flipped where west became east and north got turned upside down or not, but there's got to be something with Ned returning Dawn to the Dayne's as well as Jon possibly being Ashara's son. He would need to be a Dayne in order to be considered "worthy" to wield Dawn.

Going off the idea that the Starks are a shield for the north and the Dayne's are a shield for the south - if north is now south, then there would be a problem if the "Last Hero" carried the wrong weapon. Yes, the white walkers seem to be produced with ice magic, and indeed they are creatures made of ice, but the Others have already breached the Wall and are now south of it. I believe the wildlings are the Others. They are responsible for creating a small number of white walkers, but the majority of their force is ultimately human.

Arthur Dayne, as well as every other Sword of the Morning before or after him was undefeatable as long as they hold the magic sword called Dawn. Jaime said Arthur could defeat anyone without effort - even while taking a piss with one hand and while holding Dawn in the other. A man needs to be worthy of such a blade in order to be trusted with so much power. We can only speculate what Howland did that allowed Ned to kill Arthur. All we know is that without Howland, Ned probably didn't stand a chance, which is why Dawn is needed now. If the enemy is actually human, then whoever is the "Last Hero" or "Azor Ahai" needs a sword that makes them undefeatable.

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

I have to go with metal from a meteorite as well, rather than a chunk of comet since they are mostly rock and ice.  Meteorites have different metal compositions; so Martin could be playing with endowing the metal with magical properties (not unlike the red comet).  Everything else aside; a smith is needed to craft the blade, and that isn't a skill set we would normally attribute to the cotf, since they have no metal weapons.  Perhaps they gave him the metal, rather than the sword itself.  I think the skill set to forge a blade does push the timeline forward.

I also like your idea that valyrian blades are tempered using dragon blood.  It seems to me that these blades drink in the blood of their foes; a form of blood magic. The strength of the beast goes into the metal; not unlike MMD's sacrifice of Drogo's stallion.  Dragon blood would certainly account for their dark coloration and add a fiery magical element.  I can see a valyrian blade being made into a fiery sword given the right circumstances.  

In which case, I'm inclined to believe Jon's assessment that valyrian steel is dragon steel.  The dawn sword may be contemporary with valyrian steel; but using different metal with different magical properties, one that is inherent to the heart of a falling star; as opposed to metal that is made with dragons and blood magic. 

Or it could be that the First Men had skill at smithing iron and acquired meteoric iron in some way.  I'm just not sure how the cotf would fit in.  What magic would they contribute to the making of the sword? 

I like the idea of Ned's blood being the red waves in the two swords made from Ice. I realize that Tobho Mott was trying to intentionally stain the blade crimson, but if the material the blade is made from has "memory", then surely it remembers Ned's blood.

There is precedence for blood being used to set a sword ablaze - so I could see either of the blades being set on fire.

9 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

It makes me recall, and I hope I am not confusing book and show, but did one of Dany’s Dothraki handmaidens in Game say that dragons came from a moon that was really an egg but it cracked? Could this be the bleeding star/dragon angle? 

The Dayne’s are unique among southron houses, if I recall, because they come from the first men. Another bit of importance 

Here's the quote:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Silvery-wet hair tumbled across her eyes as Dany turned her head, curious. "The moon?"

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

The two Dothraki girls giggled and laughed. "You are foolish strawhead slave," Irri said. "Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known."

 

In our real world there are scientists that ascribe to a giant-impact hypothesis regarding a split that created the Earth and our Moon. They posit that the two were created from one larger planet called Theia.

6 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

With all of this talk of swords, is it possible that Ice was a sword of the Others during the first Long Night, entrusted to the Stark’s for safe keeping? 

 

The original Ice is missing. The sword Ned carried was named after the ancient sword, but we haven't been provided any information about it or if it even still exists. Maybe it was hammered into the Iron Throne? It would be interesting to learn that it still exists and is being used for some purpose.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Anent dragons, when Bran is taken to the top of the mountain and shown the world, he looks east beyond Asshai and sees dragons stirring in the sun

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49 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

A direwolf? 

Perhaps they became a next-generation Other army.  Where does it say that they all died?  I don't recall that part. (Which, as a side note, it is no wonder that these myths have been lost to time. I can't even keep them straight! haha!)

Yes, a dog but I'm guessing a direwolf.  Borroq calls Ghost a dog... so.

Legends and Lore included in the DVD release of Game of Thrones:

There are 4 of these.  I think it's in one of these.

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9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The original Ice is missing. The sword Ned carried was named after the ancient sword, but we haven't been provided any information about it or if it even still exists. Maybe it was hammered into the Iron Throne? It would be interesting to learn that it still exists and is being used for some purpose.

I think that "missing" is too strong a word. The first mentioned its implied that its the successor to other swords all traditionally named after the original. I very much doubt that the original went into the Iron Throne - that was far too recent not to be talked about.

As to the rest, whether it was really made of ice I don't obviously know but I do reckon on the name being a significant clue to the Stark connection to Winter and can't help but point out that the last hero, not only lost his companions and his dog but lacked a sword too.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 We can only speculate what Howland did that allowed Ned to kill Arthur. 

Oh, come on. The Star Wars plan. Create a diversion and allow Ned to strike for the kill.

Alternatively, he dropped chivalry and used a crossbow.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

can't help but point out that the last hero, not only lost his companions and his dog but lacked a sword too.

Indeed, and that is why I believe the "help" that the Children provided was to resurrect the Last Hero as an undead creature. What is dead cannot die, but rises again stronger and harder.

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Much fuss has been made about Dawn and its magical properties. Moreso than Ice ever was. Dawn is said to have been forged from a magical stone. Not sure if a distinction is made that the magical stone was the fallen star itself or just that someone from house Dayne followed the falling star and found the magical stone.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers. His descendants ruled over the western mountains for centuries thereafter as Kings of the Torrentine and Lords of Starfall.

 

Most family swords are passed down from the lord to eldest son, but not Dawn. Dawn is always wielded by someone from house Dayne, but that person has to be found "worthy", and it seems implied that there has to be criteria, but "who" decides who is worthy to earn the title of Sword of the Morning?

Everyone considered Arthur Dayne to be the most chivalrous knight in the kingdom. Has anyone ever noticed any disparaging comments regarding Arthur in the text? He's held up as the model knight that every prospective knight aspires to be. His skill is notable, but Jaime attributes some of this skill to the blade itself. Catelyn said he was the deadliest. Jaime said he was the strongest. Jon Connington said he was an efficient commander. The author GRRM said if Arthur and Barristan were to fight each other with regular swords, their skills would make an equal match, but if Arthur held Dawn he would defeat Barristan. If it's not the sword that made Arthur so great, then what was it?

Like I said, much is made about Dawn, but barely a word about Ice, which makes me think it's an important sword to the story.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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22 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Oh, come on. The Star Wars plan. Create a diversion and allow Ned to strike for the kill.

Alternatively, he dropped chivalry and used a crossbow.

Nah. I think Howland either snuck Dawn from Arthur while he was sleeping or slipped into his mind like Bran did to Hodor causing Arthur to become confused and afraid.

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to the rest, whether it was really made of ice I don't obviously know but I do reckon on the name being a significant clue to the Stark connection to Winter and can't help but point out that the last hero, not only lost his companions and his dog but lacked a sword too.

Right and so if the cotf chose the LH for their champion; they armed him as well, with the thing that is deadly to the Others - obsidian.  It makes sense to me that the LH would claim Winter's sword and the rule of the Others passes to him with the sword.  He orders them back  to the land of always winter.  The LH takes on the mantle of kingship and the sword Ice becomes the responsibility of his descendants.  Housed at Winterfell and so the words 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" (because Winter is coming); start to make some sense.   The Starks are the guardians of the sword and the defacto Kings of Winter.

Edited by LynnS

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10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Right and so if the cotf chose the LH for their champion; they armed him as well, with the thing that is deadly to the Others - obsidian.  It makes sense to me that the LH would claim Winter's sword and the rule of the Others passes to him with the sword.  He orders them back  to the land of always winter.  The LH takes on the mantle of kingship and the sword Ice becomes the resposibility of his descendants.  Housed at Winterfell and so the words 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" (because Winter is coming); start to make some sense.   The Starks are the guardians of the sword and the defacto Kings of Winter.

I do agree that the Kings of Winter are the opposite side of the coin to the Sword of the Morning. The SotM must be a worthy Dayne, and the King of Winter must be a Stark of Wiinterfell. It's funny that they don't talk about the original Ice though. 

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16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Right and so if the cotf chose the LH for their champion; they armed him as well, with the thing that is deadly to the Others - obsidian.  It makes sense to me that the LH would claim Winter's sword and the rule of the Others passes to him with the sword.  He orders them back  to the land of always winter.  The LH takes on the mantle of kingship and the sword Ice becomes the resposibility of his descendants.  Housed at Winterfell and so the words 'there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" (because Winter is coming); start to make some sense.   The Starks are the guardians of the sword and the defacto Kings of Winter.

This ties into my position that warding started with obsidian.That there is possibly dragon glass beneath Winterfell but in any case iron hadn't been invented,so the warding magic and material was what was then known to work.

And that the remains of whoever was warded initially is still down there.

Edited by redriver

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5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I do agree that the Kings of Winter are the opposite side of the coin to the Sword of the Morning. The SotM must be a worthy Dayne, and the King of Winter must be a Stark of Wiinterfell. It's funny that they don't talk about the original Ice though. 

"Secrets lost in Winterfell"-Jojen

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3 hours ago, redriver said:

"Secrets lost in Winterfell"-Jojen

Dawn is not Ice, imo.  You remind me of the Crannogmen's oath which includes swearing by ice and fire.  So are they swearing on the ancestral swords of House Stark and House Dayne: Ice and 'fire'?  Perhaps Dawn will turn out to be the fiery blade, the sword of justice. "Let the wicked tremble."

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Just to expand on the Crannogman's oath of allegiance:

- by earth and water:  an oath to protect the land from all foe men including the Others.

- by bronze and iron: an oath made on the crown of the Kings of Winter (a bronze band with nine iron swords); who's duty is also to protect the land from foes and Others

- by ice and fire; an oath made on the sword(s) of the Kings of Winter; to fight with them to protect the land.

I'm still not sure about the fiery sword, the red sword of justice or why the Reed's include fire in their oath.

The only other time fire and ice is invoked is during Drogo's funeral preparations:
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

The third level of the platform was woven of branches no thicker than a finger, and covered with dry leaves and twigs. They laid them north to south, from ice to fire, and piled them high with soft cushions and sleeping silks. The sun had begun to lower toward the west by the time they were done. Dany called the Dothraki around her. Fewer than a hundred were left. How many had Aegon started with? she wondered. It did not matter.

 

Edited by LynnS

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