Heresy 226 of wolves, dragons and other familiars

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The boy Ned helped Lord Beric with his own shield, so hacked and battered that the purple lightning and the scatter of stars upon it had almost been obliterated.

There is something about this sentence that seems to echo Ned Stark and Bloodraven. Ned of course in the quote is Edric Dayne, heir to Starfall and presumably a possible candidate for the next Sword of the Morning. But Ned Stark did help Bloodraven by providing a new "shield": Jon Snow, who I suspect will actually become "like" the Sword of the Morning. I believe his mother was Ashara, so he is part Dayne, but he also is a son of Winterfell. He is a true combination of ice (north) and fire (south) from two families who were once designated shields. Somehow I think Longclaw will become his burning blade and yet have the undefeatable characteristics of Dawn, because you've got to have the right weapon when the world is upside down.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

There are a number of things that seem to explain what happened. First is the Azor Ahai story, which I believe is the oral history as told by the Children themselves. They liken the three times they used magic to fight back as being three swords:

1) the sword tempered in water: the hammer of waters that broke the Arm of Dorne and washed away the Moat Cailin fortifications at the Neck.

2) the sword tempered in the heart of a lion - they fought back and created the white walkers. When it was over they sealed the door to magic shut by warding the hinge upon the Wall. The wheel of time was placed into a continual loop, and historic events began to repeat themselves.

3) the sword tempered in the heart of Nissa Nissa - they sacrificed their own blood to summon dragons and it "broke" their "moon". The name Nissa Nissa equates to moon moon, meaning they viewed Planetos as a sister to the Moon. The blade they forged caused the Doom, pushed the Targaryens to first move to Dragonstone, and then to invade Westeros. The timeline is long, but the Children live long lives, and their greenseers see events as the trees do: past, present, and future are but a flicker

This is very insightful. I've never seen anyone else suggest this but it fits nicely I think. It ties in all aspects of the prophecy. Well done. 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Aegon the Conqueror arrived around the time Harren the Black built Harrenhal. It's said he cut down forests of weirwoods to construct his monstrous castle. Once the seven kingdoms were united, the door to magic was reclosed. It took 150 years for the dragons to die out, but the damage to Westeros was already great, but the wheel of time kept repeating historic events. 

Some very nice parallels. There is a really good thread on parallels within Arya chapters done not too long ago on here. I cannot think of the author's name but if you are interested & can't find it, I'll find it for you. 

I like the idea of a 'door' to magic being opened & closed. If I'm understanding your meaning correctly Daenerys basically summoned the magic door to reopen & BR reset the wheel of Time. What exactly do you propose he did to reset it? 

We know Dany had pretty much a guy feeling about what she was doing so I don't think she opened it on purpose. Do you think BR reset the wheel on purpose? & What did he hope to gain from it? What do you make of Dany's 'breaking the wheel'? (Was that show only? If so, sorry just ignore it.) Sorry, don't mean to fire questions at you, I'm just interested

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

16) The mutiny against Lord Commander Jon Snow is a repeat of the mutiny against the Nights King. Jon was dying at the end of Dance, but I think he'll soon be resurrected as an undead creature/monster like Coldhands and become the Nights King. He'll bind the Watch to his will and descend upon Winterfell to take back his family's seat from the current Lord of Winterfell who claims to have the King Beyond the Wall in a cage. Sort of a jumbled mixture of details from the original Nights King story.

 

I enjoy reading your theories but I really hope this one isn't true. This is one of my least favorite. I agree Jon has to come back changed in some manner but as a creature or a monster or something likened to Coldhands just doesn't sit well with me. We have people coming back with varying degrees of change - Beric loses a little of himself each time, Cat is some undead grotesque woman hell bent on revenge, the WW come back as ice zombie type beings, and Coldhands is.. well Coldhands. I think we need something different from Jon Snow else why show us that different people react differently to being resurrected? 

I'll read your essay & the others have breached the wall theory & get back to you. 

 

P.s. I have been coming to this forum for I believe 5 years now & this is the first I've read the heresy threads. I'm not sure why I never did before but I'm so glad I did! 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is very insightful. I've never seen anyone else suggest this but it fits nicely I think. It ties in all aspects of the prophecy. Well done. 

Thank you, but it’s old hat for LynnS and myself. I don’t recall if she came up with the idea first or whether she said something that sparked the idea. Either way I feel like it is both our theory.

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

ke the idea of a 'door' to magic being opened & closed. If I'm understanding your meaning correctly Daenerys basically summoned the magic door to reopen & BR reset the wheel of Time. What exactly do you propose he did to reset it? 

Daenerys actions were more than intuitive - she was fulfilling a prophecy: the princess that was promised. It seems plain to me that there was a concerted effort to stop this prophecy from coming true.

The woods witch said the “prince” would come through the issue of Aerys and Rhaella. Part of the prophecy precluded that the “prince” would be a child of three. After Rhaegar and Viserys, Rhaella suffered a number of stillborns, miscarriages, and babes that died in infancy. If you ask me it looked like someone was poisoning Rhaella and killing any newborns in order to prevent them from having a third living child, but of course Rhaella managed to deliver her third living child before she was “allowed” to die.

Prophecy is a funny thing. Humans can actively work for or against them, but it will find a way to be fulfilled even if it unfolds in an unexpected way.

Daenerys is the princess that was promised. Maester Aemon said the dragons prove it even though she’s living in Essos away from the Seven Kingdoms. Aegon V believed having dragons was the key to keeping a unified and peaceful realm, so who would possibly be against that? Our clue is Howland’s prayer asking for a way to “win”. After hearing the plight of the Children, Bran thinks to himself that man would “be wroth”. Do the Children want vengeance or are they trying to correct a past wrong?

For the time being, I believe the Children are attempting to correct a past wrong. The evidence is the apparent “un-doing” of historical events - all the way back to the beginning when the Children fought against the First Men. IMO the “wrong” that was committed was “helping” the Last Hero defeat the Others. It’s how ASOIAF begins. Waymar Royce was an echo of the Last Hero. His sword broke while fighting a white walker and he was killed. He was also raised to a different sort of life. The cold wind blew upon him and he rose, harder and stronger. Now what is dead cannot die.

We’ve discussed on multiple occasions over the last nine years the possibility of a Stark overthrowing his own brother and taking Winterfell from him. We saw echoes of this with Jon Snow and Robb Stark. They play acted this very scenario over and over as children and Jon even dreamed about it. He still felt the deep desire to have Winterfell when Stannis offered to legitimize him and offered the lordship, but he was able to turn it down because of the honor instilled in him by his father, Ned Stark.

The Karstarks are Starks. The founder of their house was Karlon Stark. His home was called Karl’s hold, then Karhold. Alys Karstark’s marriage to the Magnar of Thenn is a repeat of the Corpse Queen’s marriage to the Lord Commander that became known as the Nights King. This historic event changed however, and the players got rearranged somewhat. Jon is the Lord Commander, Alys is the “sister” Melisandre saw riding on a dying horse, but Jon’s real sister Arya is “no one”. Alys represents the sibling aspect since Old Nan said the Lord of Winterfell was the Nights Kings brother, although Jon and Ramsay are bastard brothers sharing the same last name. The “king” part of the equation comes from the Magnar of Thenn which makes me suspect that the Thenns were the original family of Winterfell and the Starks were the bastard brother that changed his last name and declared himself the legitimate Lord of Winterfell. This is an echo of both Karlon Stark founding the Karstarks and the legitimizing of Ramsay Snow to Bolton.

Bloodraven is a Dr Strange type of wizard or sorcerer supreme. I would imagine that a reset of the wheel of time would require reworking or reweaving the magical wards using new spells, but sometimes when you pull on a thread a seam comes unsewn or a snag appears in the fabric. When the wheel was reset to return to winter, it was an electric shock like a massive lighting strike that rendered huge tears in the ancient and threadbare wards.  (Lighting strikes are another image that repeats in the story.)

Daenerys did break the wheel even if she may not know it. She successfully hatched the stone-like dragon eggs. Even the text that describes the hatching reads like an allegory of how the world broke.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

Only death can pay for life.

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don't you see? Don't you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

 

 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

P.s. I have been coming to this forum for I believe 5 years now & this is the first I've read the heresy threads. I'm not sure why I never did before but I'm so glad I did! 

We are glad that you are hear and pleased you are enjoying the discussion. Black Crow’s Heresy is the most successful and longest continuously run thread, because the majority of the regulars here kindly follow his rules as set out in every opening post to:

Just be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Magic starting leaving the world around 200 years ago.   But the Wall was built around 10,000 years ago.

Something changed near the start of the series to bring magic back, and something changed 200 years prior to make it go away. 

Yes, Leaf says that she has been waiting for the Bran boy for 200 years.  She went out into the world to learn the common tongue so she could speak to him when he finally arrived.  The Night Fort was abandoned 200 years previous and nobody has seen a direwolf south of the Wall for 200 years.  

Ned has a recurring dream of the red comet and the return of the blue-eyed lot:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

The shadows are always there, they never go away:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

"Tormund," Jon said, as they watched four old women pull a cartful of children toward the gate, "tell me of our foe. I would know all there is to know of the Others."

The wildling rubbed his mouth. "Not here," he mumbled, "not this side o' your Wall." The old man glanced uneasily toward the trees in their white mantles. "They're never far, you know. They won't come out by day, not when that old sun's shining, but don't think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don't see them, but they're always clinging to your heels."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

"I know," said Jon Snow.

Tormund turned back. "You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"

We will see, Jon thought, remembering the things that Sam had told him, the things he'd found in his old books. Longclaw had been forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells. Dragonsteel, Sam called it. Stronger than any common steel, lighter, harder, sharper … But words in a book were one thing. The true test came in battle.

Ned's dream is about the return of magic coinciding with the red comet and the birth of dragons. But more specifically the events around MMD's tent ritual where old powers are awakened - the great wolf and the burning man (great dragon).  Dany wakes the dragon and is reborn herself.

The WW seem to appear some time before the appearance of the comet.  But it's arrival is known at least to the Citadel.  Maester Luwin recieves a new lense for his telescope in GoT.  That's very suggestive.  Perhaps it's power was felt before it was seen by the naked eye; triggering the return of the Others.   

Howland Reed ensures Ned's survival at the ToJ;  because the old gods need Jon Snow and Ned's s offspring.  All the pieces are in play now for the breaking of the world; so the world can be remade. 

As Tormund says the white mists never go away, they have always been there.  It's only now that their power is tooling up.   There is no Sword of the Morning and no Stark in Winterfell.  Nothing to stop Winter from returning except the Wall.

 

[Brad Stark]

The telescope is interesting.   Did the citadel comission it long before the comet arrived?  Or is it something someone already had and was sent immediately once the comet appeared?  Did all the maesters get one?  Or is Ludwin special?

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

The telescope is interesting.   Did the citadel comission it long before the comet arrived?  Or is it something someone already had and was sent immediately once the comet appeared?  Did all the maesters get one?  Or is Ludwin special?

The maester's study the stars.  Telescopes are called far eyes and Luwin gets a new myrish lens for his 'telescope' in GoT.  They watch the wanderers... the planets.  They are familiar with comets.  Probably even comets that return on a short cycle.  It's possible that they were able to see the red comet before the rest of the population.  I'm guessing that the Citadel is particularly interested in comets because of their links to this or that prophecy.

[redriver]

Didn't Bran see Luwin observing a comet in his coma dream?

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, redriver said:

Didn't Bran see Luwin observing a comet in his coma dream?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.

He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

 

Frowning, perhaps because comets are not red in color.

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Thank you, but it’s old hat for LynnS and myself. I don’t recall if she came up with the idea first or whether she said something that sparked the idea. Either way I feel like it is both our theory.

My goodness, we have been talking about this stuff for a long time.    I don't make any claims on any theories.  I don't think I have any theories anymore.  I just have a few interpretations that make sense to me and some things that also make sense to you. I'm perfectly happy if some of those things fit with your theory.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

The telescope is interesting.   Did the citadel comission it long before the comet arrived?  Or is it something someone already had and was sent immediately once the comet appeared?  Did all the maesters get one?  Or is Ludwin special?

One scenario is that the Citadel first espied the comet (a fuzzy ball) before it comes close enough to the sun to produce it's tail.  A myrish lens is sent to whatever maesters are proficient in astronomy.  The lens is sent to Kingslanding to go with Robert's party to Winterfell.  Baelish absconds with the lens for his own purposes and whatever notes came from the Citadel were discarded.  Highly speculative of course. 

[Melifeather]

I thought the Myrish lens was sent by Lysa Arryn with a secret message tucked inside? Or am I misremembering?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The maester's study the stars.  Telescopes are called far eyes and Luwin gets a new myrish lens for his 'telescope' in GoT.  They watch the wanderers... the planets.  They are familiar with comets.  Probably even comets that return on a short cycle.  It's possible that they were able to see the red comet before the rest of the population.  I'm guessing that the Citadel is particularly interested in comets because of their links to this or that prophecy.

In the prologue of AGOT, Will described the wildling woman up a tree as having "afar-eyes" which seems to indicate she too may have been searching for the comet.

[redriver]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Frowning, perhaps because comets are not red in color.

Thanks for the quote.I thought it mentioned a comet but obviously not.Though what is referred to as a comet in the books is in fact an asteroid.He's probably frowning because he's not expecting it.

I've suggested before that the Others may have been able to sense the comets approach before it's even visible.They have abilities we don't.

And after all Old Nan can even smell it!

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, redriver said:

Thanks for the quote.I thought it mentioned a comet but obviously not.Though what is referred to as a comet in the books is in fact an asteroid.He's probably frowning because he's not expecting it.

I've suggested before that the Others may have been able to sense the comets approach before it's even visible.They have abilities we don't.

And after all Old Nan can even smell it!

The problem with it being an asteroid is that it is in the sky for far too long.  A near earth object like an asteroid would come and go very quickly.  The comet is seen for some time.

I agree though that it's presence is felt before it is actually seen. 

[LynnS]

59 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I thought the Myrish lens was sent by Lysa Arryn with a secret message tucked inside? Or am I misremembering?

Well, I've suggested upthread that the lens is sent by the Citadel to be transported to Luwin in Robert's party.  Baelish sees and opportunity and gets hold of it to send Lysa's message instead.  The question is who is more likely to have a reason to send Luwin a lens for his telescope?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"For a certainty," Maester Luwin agreed with a deep sigh. The maester was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky. "Yet given time … Ser Rodrik has the truth of it, we need men to walk the walls. Your lord father took the cream of his guard to King's Landing, and your brother took the rest, along with all the likely lads for leagues around. Many will not come back to us, and we must needs find the men to take their places."

His big telescope.

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The problem with it being an asteroid is that it is in the sky for far too long.  A near earth object like an asteroid would come and go very quickly.  The comet is seen for some time.

I agree though that it's presence is felt before it is actually seen. 

Speaking of feeling its presence before being seen - both Jon and Daenerys are filled with intuition or destiny or fate - whatever you want to call it. I think the wheel of time has a powerful influence on the people. Its almost like they have no choice but to "do" what their "character role" is supposed to do. It's like they are playing pieces in a game of Cyvassse controlled by a higher power.

Which brings us back to Howland's prayer to find a way to "win".

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Speaking of feeling its presence before being seen - both Jon and Daenerys are filled with intuition or destiny or fate - whatever you want to call it. I think the wheel of time has a powerful influence on the people. Its almost like they have no choice but to "do" what their "character role" is supposed to do. It's like they are playing pieces in a game of Cyvassse controlled by a higher power.

Yes, Dany understands that she has to break the spokes in the wheel; but somebody will have to break the wheel itself and I think that means destroying the source itself.

The return of the comet seems to recharge the magic batteries of ice and fire.  I think we are looking at the 3rd cycle when magic powers are their most potent and thus we get a long winter the likes of which have not been seen for 5000 years.

In Ned's dream, Arthur tells him it all begins again and Ned says that it will be the end and not the beginning.

The only other person who even mentions ice and fire is Rhaegar.  He calls it the song of ice and fire.  So I think he knows more about what is to come than anyone.  I suspect he gets this knowledge from the Ghost of High Heart; the original wood witch of the pwip prophecy.

 

[Melifeather]

I think it’s relevant to point out GRRMs history as a master chess player and chess referee (is that what they’re called?), and his long history of making up stories about his pet turtles. He might just be making up stories about game pieces with lives being controlled by the invisible hand of a “player” during a game. The resets are new games. On one side we have the Children of the Forest and the old gods as a team figuring out a way to “win”. Who is on the other side? That’s probably who Bran saw - the omnipotent and fear-inducing opponent.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Daenerys actions were more than intuitive - she was fulfilling a prophecy: the princess that was promised. It seems plain to me that there was a concerted effort to stop this prophecy from coming true.

I don't disagree with this, I just meant that Danerys was not knowingly or purposefully bringing magic back into the world. She had a gut feeling about what she needed to do - whether she knew this would bring about the hatching of the dragon eggs I'm not sure but I think she had a hunch. 

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The woods witch said the “prince” would come through the issue of Aerys and Rhaella. Part of the prophecy precluded that the “prince” would be a child of three. After Rhaegar and Viserys, Rhaella suffered a number of stillborns, miscarriages, and babes that died in infancy. If you ask me it looked like someone was poisoning Rhaella and killing any newborns in order to prevent them from having a third living child, but of course Rhaella managed to deliver her third living child before she was “allowed” to die.

This is quite interesting. It does seem as if someone or something was meddling in things here. Maybe it wasn't poison but some bigger power not wanting the prophecy to be fulfilled? 

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Daenerys is the princess that was promised. Maester Aemon said the dragons prove it even though she’s living in Essos away from the Seven Kingdoms. Aegon V believed having dragons was the key to keeping a unified and peaceful realm, so who would possibly be against that? Our clue is Howland’s prayer asking for a way to “win”. After hearing the plight of the Children, Bran thinks to himself that man would “be wroth”. Do the Children want vengeance or are they trying to correct a past wrong?

I agree she is the princess that was promised. I always get hung up where tPtwP crosses with AAR. Some think they are one & the same. I disagree mostly because while Daenerys seems to fill the promised princess roll when Mel looks into her fires to asking to see Azor Ahai Reborn all she sees is Jon. 

I like the idea of them trying to correct a past wrong. 

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

For the time being, I believe the Children are attempting to correct a past wrong. The evidence is the apparent “un-doing” of historical events - all the way back to the beginning when the Children fought against the First Men. IMO the “wrong” that was committed was “helping” the Last Hero defeat the Others. It’s how ASOIAF begins. Waymar Royce was an echo of the Last Hero. His sword broke while fighting a white walker and he was killed. He was also raised to a different sort of life. The cold wind blew upon him and he rose, harder and stronger. Now what is dead cannot die

I was thinking more along the lines of the wrong they are attempting to correct being the creation of the others but I think this probably fits better. I've long expected the Others won't be the big bad evil we are led to believe they are. What does that mean for man kind then? If the CotF are successful in preventing the Last Hero from defeating them this time will they overrun mankind? Turning everyone into an Ice Zombie? 

What do you suppose it means for the Iron Born that their words are so entertwined with the Others? Could it be that all of the great houses have words that mean something in regards to the Others/Long Night/Last Hero etc? Or maybe all of the Great Northern Houses? Winter is Coming is ominous in it's self & could potentially tie into several areas. Here you have tied the IB's words in. I can't imagine where "A Lannister always pays his debts" would tie in to this but there could be other houses that have passed down 'sayings' rather than stories that can be so changed over time in an effort to warn or give advice or prophesize what is to come. 

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

We’ve discussed on multiple occasions over the last nine years the possibility of a Stark overthrowing his own brother and taking Winterfell from him. We saw echoes of this with Jon Snow and Robb Stark. They play acted this very scenario over and over as children and Jon even dreamed about it. He still felt the deep desire to have Winterfell when Stannis offered to legitimize him and offered the lordship, but he was able to turn it down because of the honor instilled in him by his father, Ned Stark.

The Karstarks are Starks. The founder of their house was Karlon Stark. His home was called Karl’s hold, then Karhold. Alys Karstark’s marriage to the Magnar of Thenn is a repeat of the Corpse Queen’s marriage to the Lord Commander that became known as the Nights King. This historic event changed however, and the players got rearranged somewhat. Jon is the Lord Commander, Alys is the “sister” Melisandre saw riding on a dying horse, but Jon’s real sister Arya is “no one”. Alys represents the sibling aspect since Old Nan said the Lord of Winterfell was the Nights Kings brother, although Jon and Ramsay are bastard brothers sharing the same last name. The “king” part of the equation comes from the Magnar of Thenn which makes me suspect that the Thenns were the original family of Winterfell and the Starks were the bastard brother that changed his last name and declared himself the legitimate Lord of Winterfell. This is an echo of both Karlon Stark founding the Karstarks and the legitimizing of Ramsay Snow to Bolton.

So essentially Ramsay may be the "brother" Jon over throws to take WF from him. 

 

11 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

We are glad that you are hear and pleased you are enjoying the discussion. Black Crow’s Heresy is the most successful and longest continuously run thread, because the majority of the regulars here kindly follow his rules as set out in every opening post to:

Just be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

Thanks!