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Black Crow

Heresy 226 of wolves, dragons and other familiars

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45 minutes ago, redriver said:

then Winter is Coming

Bingo.

45 minutes ago, redriver said:

But I don't think the Wall itself is contributing to the blizzard,especially via tunnels or crypts.That's too much like a bad Hollywood scene.

Even the great Mr Martin is guilty of some corn. I seem to recall this line:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - The Queenmaker

"Are you the Sword of the Morning now?"

"No. Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night."

 

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, and we know that Stannis hates lies (don't we?)  Of course Stannis may be becoming more Machiavellian as the tale progresses.

Mance on the other hand seems to revel in deception.

Three Eyed Monkey has a fairly decent theory that both were involved.Mance and Stannis spent many hours together off page at the Wall.

Mance has all the info in the letter and nearly all the phraseology has either been spoken by him or said in his presence.

And Mance calls Jon a bastard every time he meets him plus they nearly always talk about cloaks.

The cloak of six skins hints at Varamyr.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Or perhaps as a sacrifice to prevent a Long Winter.  An analogy perhaps to the Prince of Pentos, a ruler who is to be sacrificed in the event that the weather turns bad.

 
 

Spoiler

 

     "Knows me," cried one of the ravens the maester had left behind.  It flapped its big black wings against the bars of its cage. 
     "Knows," it cried again.

"Not long," cried the raven from its cage.

  "Yet," both ravens screamed in unison.  Then one quorked, and the other muttered, "Tree, tree, tree."

Four, I think, or five.  I don't recall.  The stone kings are angry."  He was shaking by then, trembling like an autumn leaf.  "The heart tree knew my name.  The old gods.  Theon, I heard them whisper. 

The memory left Theon writhing in his chains.  "Let me down," he pleaded.  "Just for a little while, then you can hang me up again."  Stannis Baratheon looked up at him, but did not answer.  "Tree," a raven cried.  "Tree, tree, tree." 
     Then other bird said, "Theon," clear as day, as Asha came striding through the door.

  "Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace."  The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains.  "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear.  That is how Eddard Stark would have done it.  Theon slew Lord Eddard's sons.  Give him to Lord Eddard's gods.  The old gods of the north.  Give him to the tree."
     And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester's ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws.  "The tree," one squawked, "the tree, the tree," whilst the second screamed only, "Theon, Theon, Theon."
     Theon Greyjoy smiled.  They know my name, he thought.

 

 

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58 minutes ago, redriver said:

The cloak of six skins hints at Varamyr.

It does seem to be a pretty big clue that Mance is yet glamoured. I do lean towards Mance writing the letter, but I wonder if it could have also been Theon? There's someone that we've never considered before, but he is someone that knows Ramsay well.

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18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It does seem to be a pretty big clue that Mance is yet glamoured. I do lean towards Mance writing the letter, but I wonder if it could have also been Theon? There's someone that we've never considered before, but he is someone that knows Ramsay well.

There could be time for the battle to happen before the letter is sent and I can see strong motives for Mance and/or Stannis to goad Jon to ride to Winterfell.Not so much Theon.He could provide some help though and he does say the line "He wants his bride back.He wants his Reek." which appears in the letter-though that could be a pointer to Stannis as the author, as that's who Theon says the line to.

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19 minutes ago, redriver said:

There could be time for the battle to happen before the letter is sent and I can see strong motives for Mance and/or Stannis to goad Jon to ride to Winterfell.Not so much Theon.He could provide some help though and he does say the line "He wants his bride back.He wants his Reek." which appears in the letter-though that could be a pointer to Stannis as the author, as that's who Theon says the line to.

If you are Ramsay fighting a battle against Stannis, you're not going to want to add more soldiers against you. That just seems foolish. Idiotic even. To me, whoever wrote it needs help, but its written in such a way as to imply that the author knows the Watch doesn't get involved in the wars of the realm. So, to get the help they desperately need it has to be something that would light a fire under Jon's butt.

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6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If you are Ramsay fighting a battle against Stannis, you're not going to want to add more soldiers against you. That just seems foolish. Idiotic even. To me, whoever wrote it needs help, but its written in such a way as to imply that the author knows the Watch doesn't get involved in the wars of the realm. So, to get the help they desperately need it has to be something that would light a fire under Jon's butt.

Exactly.And Rattleshirt had just handed Jon's arse to him in the duel when the wedding invite was read out and he saw Jon's stiff-necked response to it.

But I don't think he wants help so much as a Stark in Winterfell.Though of course he could use the help.

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18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

It does seem to be a pretty big clue that Mance is yet glamoured. I do lean towards Mance writing the letter, but I wonder if it could have also been Theon? There's someone that we've never considered before, but he is someone that knows Ramsay well.

 

17 hours ago, redriver said:

There could be time for the battle to happen before the letter is sent and I can see strong motives for Mance and/or Stannis to goad Jon to ride to Winterfell.Not so much Theon.He could provide some help though and he does say the line "He wants his bride back.He wants his Reek." which appears in the letter-though that could be a pointer to Stannis as the author, as that's who Theon says the line to.

 

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If you are Ramsay fighting a battle against Stannis, you're not going to want to add more soldiers against you. That just seems foolish. Idiotic even. To me, whoever wrote it needs help, but its written in such a way as to imply that the author knows the Watch doesn't get involved in the wars of the realm. So, to get the help they desperately need it has to be something that would light a fire under Jon's butt.

 

16 hours ago, redriver said:

Exactly.And Rattleshirt had just handed Jon's arse to him in the duel when the wedding invite was read out and he saw Jon's stiff-necked response to it.

But I don't think he wants help so much as a Stark in Winterfell.Though of course he could use the help.

Not sure when I joined in on a discussion of the letter the last time, seems years ago.

The information in the letter seems to point at Mance or Ramsay, a co-authorship seems unlikely. Ignoring what I know from the tv show, I would bet on Mance as the writer while Ramsay rides out to fight Stannis.

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Back to the subject of skinchanging again.   Concerning the ability of wargs to access the senses (sight, sound, taste) of their host animals:

Varamyr:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

The warg stopped beneath a tree and sniffed, his grey-brown fur dappled by shadow. A sigh of piney wind brought the man-scent to him, over fainter smells that spoke of fox and hare, seal and stag, even wolf. Those were man-smells too, the warg knew; the stink of old skins, dead and sour, near drowned beneath the stronger scents of smoke and blood and rot. Only man stripped the skins from other beasts and wore their hides and hair.

Wargs have no fear of man, as wolves do. Hate and hunger coiled in his belly, and he gave a low growl, calling to his one-eyed brother, to his small sly sister. As he raced through the trees, his packmates followed hard on his heels. They had caught the scent as well. As he ran, he saw through their eyes too and glimpsed himself ahead. The breath of the pack puffed warm and white from long grey jaws. Ice had frozen between their paws, hard as stone, but the hunt was on now, the prey ahead. Flesh, the warg thought, meat.

Varamyr can see through the eyes of his pack mates without actually fully skinchanging the animals.

Jon:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

He was walking beneath the shell of the Lord Commander's Tower, past the spot where Ygritte had died in his arms, when Ghost appeared beside him, his warm breath steaming in the cold. In the moonlight, his red eyes glowed like pools of fire. The taste of hot blood filled Jon's mouth, and he knew that Ghost had killed that night. No, he thought. I am a man, not a wolf. He rubbed his mouth with the back of a gloved hand and spat.

Jon only has to see Ghost and the taste of blood fills his mouth.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

The shield that guards the realms of men. Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him. He could smell Horse's unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the rank sharp smell of fear, the giant's overpowering musk. He could hear the beating of his own heart. When he looked across the grove at the woman with her child, the two greybeards, the Hornfoot man with his maimed feet, all he saw was men.

Jon only has to touch Ghost and his sense of hearing and smell are sharper, more acute.

Arya:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

"Yes. I know that you're the one who has been hitting me." Her stick flashed out, and cracked against his fingers, sending his own stick clattering to the floor.

The priest winced and snatched his hand back. "And how could a blind girl know that?"

I saw you. "I gave you three. I don't need to give you four." Maybe on the morrow she would tell him about the cat that had followed her home last night from Pynto's, the cat that was hiding in the rafters, looking down on them. Or maybe not. If he could have secrets, so could she.

 

Arya, the blind girl can also see, using the eyes of the cat without skinchanging.

Which begs the meaning of a thousand eyes and one.  It seems possible to me that a greenseer can 'see' in this way as well.  Coldhand's companion ravens and crows come to mind.  

But also dead bodies of another sort:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

"She sees me."  Not just the wolves but the skinchanger within.  It seems to me that whatever 'sees' Varamyr has the ability to recognize a skinchanger in it's host animal.  As far as we know, only another warg/skinchanger or greenseer has that ability.

 

Edited by LynnS

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Clearly there's a telepathic connection, as we also see in communicating through the medium of dreams. What might be interesting is to see how rigidly its graduated between those who can see and those who can also skinchange, just as we've discussed the possible distinction between skinchangers and wargs, although I suspect that GRRM's reluctance to codify magic may preclude this as a factor.

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38 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Clearly there's a telepathic connection, as we also see in communicating through the medium of dreams. What might be interesting is to see how rigidly its graduated between those who can see and those who can also skinchange, just as we've discussed the possible distinction between skinchangers and wargs, although I suspect that GRRM's reluctance to codify magic may preclude this as a factor.

I think the skinchanger needs to practice or learn how to open the third eye while awake. Bran figured it out in the crypts and could see through his eyes and Summer's at the same time. Jon can only skinchange in his sleep and didn't realize what was happening until Qhorin asked him what he saw, but he hasn't demonstrated that he can replicate this while awake. Arya figured it out though. She saw through the eyes of the cat when she was blinded.

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43 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Clearly there's a telepathic connection, as we also see in communicating through the medium of dreams. What might be interesting is to see how rigidly its graduated between those who can see and those who can also skinchange, just as we've discussed the possible distinction between skinchangers and wargs, although I suspect that GRRM's reluctance to codify magic may preclude this as a factor.

Jon believes that he an Ghost are so bonded that they are essentially one.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

Jon smelled Tom Barleycorn before he saw him. Or was it Ghost who smelled him? Of late, Jon Snow sometimes felt as if he and the direwolf were one, even awake. The great white wolf appeared first, shaking off the snow. A few moments later Tom was there. "Wildlings," he told Jon, softly. "In the grove."

I'm no sure that Arya feels this although calls herself the Night Wolf and dreams almost every night of Nymeria.  That's a pretty strong bond across the sea.

I wonder about Varamyr's ability to take other host animals away from their skinchangers.  This might indicate a difference between wards and skinchangers in their abilities.

Edited by LynnS

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6 hours ago, alienarea said:

 

 

 

Not sure when I joined in on a discussion of the letter the last time, seems years ago.

The information in the letter seems to point at Mance or Ramsay, a co-authorship seems unlikely. Ignoring what I know from the tv show, I would bet on Mance as the writer while Ramsay rides out to fight Stannis.

I suppose the big question round these here parts is what is Mance really up to?

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4 hours ago, redriver said:

I suppose the big question round these here parts is what is Mance really up to?

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"So you could betray them to the Weeper?"

"Are we talking about betrayals? What was the name of that wildling wife of yours, Snow? Ygritte, wasn't it?" The wildling turned to Melisandre. "I will need horses. Half a dozen good ones. And this is nothing I can do alone. Some of the spearwives penned up at Mole's Town should serve. Women would be best for this. The girl's more like to trust them, and they will help me carry off a certain ploy I have in mind."

 

Ploy:

  1. a cunning plan or action designed to turn a situation to one's own advantage.
    "the president has dismissed the referendum as a ploy to buy time"
      ruse, tactic, move, device, stratagem, scheme, trick, gambit, cunning plan, maneuver, contrivance, expedient, dodge, subterfuge, game, wile; 
 

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On 9/6/2019 at 10:16 AM, Feather Crystal said:

One of the glaring lies in the Pink Letter is the demise of Stannis and his army. The sample Theon chapter demonstrates that the battle hasn't even begun when Jon receives the letter. Unless GRRM has suddenly begun writing scenes from the past? Its a technique used in movies and tv shows and some books, but it hasn't really been utilized in ASOIAF other than in dreams or visions.

GRRM has said Stannis is still alive in his books, therefore the letter is a lie, not a shuffling of scenes and times. 

The letter being a lie doesn't mean Ramsay didn't write it, he has motive to lie.  I don't think Stannis would lie, but accept other people might.   Mance has motive, a history of deception, knowledge of the true information in the letter, and motive to try to bring Jon and army South.   But I think Melisandre wrote the letter to kill Jon.

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7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM has said Stannis is still alive in his books, therefore the letter is a lie, not a shuffling of scenes and times. 

The letter being a lie doesn't mean Ramsay didn't write it, he has motive to lie.  I don't think Stannis would lie, but accept other people might.   Mance has motive, a history of deception, knowledge of the true information in the letter, and motive to try to bring Jon and army South.   But I think Melisandre wrote the letter to kill Jon.

Why do you think Mel wants to kill Jon?

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7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM has said Stannis is still alive in his books, therefore the letter is a lie, not a shuffling of scenes and times. 

The letter being a lie doesn't mean Ramsay didn't write it, he has motive to lie.  I don't think Stannis would lie, but accept other people might.   Mance has motive, a history of deception, knowledge of the true information in the letter, and motive to try to bring Jon and army South.   But I think Melisandre wrote the letter to kill Jon.

I don’t think it’s Melisandre’s plan to kill Jon. I have my suspicions but I think it’s a coded letter from Mance to Melisandre - but in case it was intercepted, he couldn’t write to Melisandre and the details of what he needed to convey, so they are coded.

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On 9/6/2019 at 2:35 PM, Feather Crystal said:

If you are Ramsay fighting a battle against Stannis, you're not going to want to add more soldiers against you. That just seems foolish. Idiotic even. To me, whoever wrote it needs help, but its written in such a way as to imply that the author knows the Watch doesn't get involved in the wars of the realm. So, to get the help they desperately need it has to be something that would light a fire under Jon's butt.

Given the reaction of the wildlings when Jon reads the letter; I'd say it's someone who knows how the wildlings will react.

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On 9/6/2019 at 12:41 PM, redriver said:

And Mance calls Jon a bastard every time he meets him plus they nearly always talk about cloaks.

The cloak of six skins hints at Varamyr.

Yes that's interesting.  Six disguises and a cold cage.  The crypts perhaps.

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Given how unspectacular the army of the dead threat ends in the show and there isn't a Night King to lead the White Walkers in the books, I wonder whether Mance who opened graves in the Frostfangs (IIRC, is Joramun buried there?), opens the right grave in the crypts and ends the White Walker thread, maybe giving his life in the process?

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