Jump to content
Black Crow

Heresy 226 of wolves, dragons and other familiars

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As you know I have been arguing for a long time that Rugen is only playing the part of Varys, disguised by powder, perfume and distaste. Although Lord Eddard refers to his stubble as "fake", that's natural, but consider that he sees him by a flickering torch in anotherwise pitch black room.

Conversely the evident distaste for "Varys" clouds of perfume discourages close inspection

Aerys II brought Varys over from Essos around the time of Steffon Baratheon's death. Varys was infamous for his talent for secrets. I imagine Varys and Aerys II met face to face upon his arrival in Kings Landing. Varys was already rich by then from the network and reputation he and Illyrio had built in Pentos. Varys is his true persona and Rugen is a character he plays. Varys was with a mummers group prior to building his business with Illyrio, so he would know the tricks of the theatre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think it's far easier to conceal scars and and hint of a beard than it is to create scars and stubble.  Rugen is seen by a few gaolers and Ned who is about to die.  There is no need for Varys to disguise himself under these circumstances.  Mummers in particular would know how to conceal male features.  Varys has also disguised himself as a woman.  Varys is often 'freshly scrubbed and powdered', so clean shaven and powdered.  Varys strokes his 'cheek'.  I imagine this gesture looks very similar to any man feeling his skin for a shadow.   His hands are also powdered.  For someone so neat and tidy, he doesn't wash his hands.  The better to apply powder as needed when stroking his cheek.

Of course men can conceal a shadow with makeup:

I agree, I actually just posted something similar on another thread. You can shave to get rid of most of the stubble & the powder would hide the rest & the scars. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

erys II brought Varys over from Essos around the time of Steffon Baratheon's death. Varys was infamous for his talent for secrets. I imagine Varys and Aerys II met face to face upon his arrival in Kings Landing. Varys was already rich by then from the network and reputation he and Illyrio had built in Pentos. Varys is his true persona and Rugen is a character he plays. Varys was with a mummers group prior to building his business with Illyrio, so he would know the tricks of the theatre

It certainly isn't proven but couldn't it be true that Varys was already in disguise upon meeting Aerys? He was already renowned for his talents. It's possible Varys & Rugen are disguises. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It certainly isn't proven but couldn't it be true that Varys was already in disguise upon meeting Aerys? He was already renowned for his talents. It's possible Varys & Rugen are disguises. 

Wouldn't this conclusion mean his whole history is a lie? How do you suppose he built his wealth in Pentos if not the story that has been presented? I just don't see the point of him not being who he says he is. For those that think his real persona is Ruger, what would be the purpose?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, redriver said:

I'm no mummer but I do wonder whether it would be easier for a coarse jailer to play an eloquent schemer or vice versa.I'd imagine the latter.

We are told Varys was raised for a time by a troupe of mummers so it's entirely plausible both Varys and Rugen are guises.

So the real question is who is behind both?A Blackfyre or Targ sympathiser it seems.

I'd say that Rugen is an intelligent schemer and a talented mummer. The only time he shows his true appearance is when there are few people who will see him and they make no connection to Varys.  He assumes (correctly) that anyone who knows him as Varys and sees him as Rugen will think he is in disguise.  Because men see what they expect to see.  All Varys has to do to change from Varys to Rugen is wash his face.

Varys has been playing the long game since coming to Kingslanding:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion I

"I'm short, not blind," Tyrion said. Out on the kingsroad, it had seemed to cover half the sky, outshining the crescent moon.

"In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger," Varys said. "They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow." The eunuch rubbed his powdered hands together. "May I leave you with a bit of a riddle, Lord Tyrion?" He did not wait for an answer. "In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. 'Do it,' says the king, 'for I am your lawful ruler.' 'Do it,' says the priest, 'for I command you in the names of the gods.' 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me—who lives and who dies?" Bowing deeply, the eunuch hurried from the common room on soft slippered feet.

This passage is really about Aegon and the comet heralding the return of the King with fire and blood to follow (dragons) and the sellswords, The Golden Company.  

The question it what will happen with Varys in the next book now that he has killed Kevan Lannister and Pycelle.  I doubt he will be making an appearance at Cersei's court.  So will he be Rugen now or Varys?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion III

"I am certain of nothing in this fickle and treacherous world, my lord. Chataya has no cause to love the queen, though, and she knows that she has you to thank for ridding her of Allar Deem. Shall we go?" He started down the tunnel.

Even his walk is different, Tyrion observed. The scent of sour wine and garlic clung to Varys instead of lavender. "I like this new garb of yours," he offered as they went.

"The work I do does not permit me to travel the streets amid a column of knights. So when I leave the castle, I adopt more suitable guises, and thus live to serve you longer."

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion I

The master of whisperers had been dressed as a begging brother, in a moth-eaten robe of brown roughspun with a cowl that shadowed his smooth fat cheeks and bald round head. "You should not have climbed that ladder," he said reproachfully.

 

 

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There would have to be a reason for Varys to be Rugen. If he's Rugen, what is his motive and what is he up to? Anything other than what has been presented for five books needs to have a payoff, not to mention hints or foreshadowing for an alternate identity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Wouldn't this conclusion mean his whole history is a lie? How do you suppose he built his wealth in Pentos if not the story that has been presented? I just don't see the point of him not being who he says he is. For those that think his real persona is Ruger, what would be the purpose?

 

Yeah, much of it would be a lie. I don't know what his purpose would be for pretending to be Varys when he is actually Ruger but I can see why he may not want ANYONE to know his true identity. I think he has many balls in the air & I can see how it would be helpful for no one to know who you are should some of those balls come crashing down. In all fairness I'm not completely certain what his motivations are as Varys, let alone Ruger or anyone else :lol:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, much of it would be a lie. I don't know what his purpose would be for pretending to be Varys when he is actually Ruger but I can see why he may not want ANYONE to know his true identity. I think he has many balls in the air & I can see how it would be helpful for no one to know who you are should some of those balls come crashing down. In all fairness I'm not completely certain what his motivations are as Varys, let alone Ruger or anyone else :lol:

 

I've read theories presented that Varys is a Blackfyre supporter. I think his confession to Kevan Lannister that his actions were for the "children" are honest and heartfelt. He wants Cersei's plans to fail. In order to get an inkling of what Varys wants we have to examine what Cersei was doing. She was fighting with the Faith Militant and Kevan over who controls Tommen. Kevan was a stabilizing figure, so Varys wants an unstable environment so that it would be easier for someone to overthrow the Iron Throne, which means he's supporting somebody. "Children" could be revenge for Rhaenys and Aegon, or it could even mean Children of the Forest. He's either supporting Young Griff or he's working with Howland or the High Sparrow.

Edited by Feather Crystal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This seems a silly discussion.  The easiest way to switch stubble and no stubble between being Varys and Rugen is to simply stop shaving when playing Rugen. 

Modern looks include well groomed men who always have the same length stubble.   This is only possible with electric equipment and only more recently became fashionable.   

Rugen is an unkempt man who cares little of what he looks like.   Such men don't always have stubble, and shave maybe once a week.  Varys appearing as a clean shaven Rugen doesn't break character at all, but risks being recognized as Varys, hence a small amount of fake stubble when he can't grow it fast enough. 

Stubble is almost impossible to hide with modern make up, and certainly impossible with powder.  Powder makes dark stubble look like a white beard. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The over-done powder and clouds of perfume may not be a sufficient disguise in itself, but they are, together with his apparent effeminacy more than sufficient to discourage closer inspection - look at how Lord Eddard recoils on first encountering him.

While I find it easier to refer to him as Rugen because I don't believe that he is Varys, both are roles which he is playing. There may be others and his true identity is neither

Edited by Black Crow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure how we got from wolves, dragons and other familiars to Rugen and Varys, but this is Heresy.

What if a Faceless Man murdered the original Varys? That would explain how Jaqen H'ghar ended up in the black cells - he just changed face.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I've read theories presented that Varys is a Blackfyre supporter. I think his confession to Kevan Lannister that his actions were for the "children" are honest and heartfelt.

This is the man who has children kidnapped and has their tongues cut out.  His concern for the children is appalling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Not sure how we got from wolves, dragons and other familiars to Rugen and Varys, but this is Heresy.

What if a Faceless Man murdered the original Varys? That would explain how Jaqen H'ghar ended up in the black cells - he just changed face.

The discussion seemed to be stalled.  Sorry for taking it off topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

This seems a silly discussion.  The easiest way to switch stubble and no stubble between being Varys and Rugen is to simply stop shaving when playing Rugen. 

Modern looks include well groomed men who always have the same length stubble.   This is only possible with electric equipment and only more recently became fashionable.   

Rugen is an unkempt man who cares little of what he looks like.   Such men don't always have stubble, and shave maybe once a week.  Varys appearing as a clean shaven Rugen doesn't break character at all, but risks being recognized as Varys, hence a small amount of fake stubble when he can't grow it fast enough. 

Stubble is almost impossible to hide with modern make up, and certainly impossible with powder.  Powder makes dark stubble look like a white beard. 

 

He's not hiding his stubble, he's hiding his shadow with makeup and constantly checking for stubble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Not sure how we got from wolves, dragons and other familiars to Rugen and Varys, but this is Heresy.

What if a Faceless Man murdered the original Varys? That would explain how Jaqen H'ghar ended up in the black cells - he just changed face.

Except the Faceless man left with Arya, and someone continued to be Varys.   And he'd still need to sneak into the black cells to kill Varys, much easier not to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is the man who has children kidnapped and has their tongues cut out.  His concern for the children is appalling.

True that. I'm just saying its typical for a killer to confess their motives to the victim when they are confident that the target will soon be dead. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did want to bring up a conflict between 2 popular theories. 

1.  Jaqen H'ghar is Syrio Forel.  Very popular, although I am not sure why.  They both know Arya, are both from Bravos and are never in the same room.

2.  Littlefinger hired Jaqen H'ghar to kill Ned.  Littlefinger makes a comment implying he knows the cost to hire a Faceless man, and this explains why Jaqen was in the Black Cells. 

They could both be wrong, but can't both be true.  Syrio knew Ned, and Faceless men are not to kill people they know. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

True that. I'm just saying its a typical for a killer to confess their motives to the victim when they are confident that the target will soon be dead. 

Well, as I said upthread, Varys talks about the Red Messenger heralding the arrival of a king followed by blood and fire.  This is before we know about Aegon and Varys' involvement in that plot.  Blood and Fire refers to dragons and he does know about Dany's dragons.  The plan being that Aegon will acquire Dany and her dragons.  Varys is the Mummer and Aegon is the dragon of Quaithe's warning.  This is a long range plot, since Illyrion and Varys by association are working together to see Aegon returned to power.  I know you know this. 

Why Varys should want this for the good of the realm is the question.  Perhaps he has all the money he needs from his spying and cheesemongering days and his objective is to put a better ruler on the throne.  He tells Kevan Lannister as much.

I always look to Tyrion for impression of Varys and he is often described with a slimey smile.  I think that Aerys was baited by Varys with information acquired through his spying.  Varys presents as a eunuch at court because eunuch's are generally trusted advisers with no familial associations and he has demonstrated how useful he can be to just about everyone.  But he has his own agenda. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch

As for Rugen, the point is that a man who has been castrated does not develop facial hair.  So perhaps, Varys was 'cut' but not everything was taken.  But I find the whole story suspect at this point.  

Rugen knows the bowels of Kingslanding very well, all the secret passages.  When he leaves the castle he does so secretly int he guise of Rugen, a begging brother and even a woman. 

However, I think his natural appearance serves as a disguise, since very few have seen it.  Scarred face, dark beard and rotting teeth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well, as I said upthread, Varys talks about the Red Messenger heralding the arrival of a king followed by blood and fire.  This is before we know about Aegon and Varys' involvement in that plot.  Blood and Fire refers to dragons and he does know about Dany's dragons.  The plan being that Aegon will acquire Dany and her dragons.  Varys is the Mummer and Aegon is the dragon of Quaithe's warning.  This is a long range plot, since Illyrion and Varys by association are working together to see Aegon returned to power.  I know you know this. 

Why Varys should want this for the good of the realm is the question.  Perhaps he has all the money he needs from his spying and cheesemongering days and his objective is to put a better ruler on the throne.  He tells Kevan Lannister as much.

I always look to Tyrion for impression of Varys and he is often described with a slimey smile.  I think that Aerys was baited by Varys with information acquired through his spying.  Varys presents as a eunuch at court because eunuch's are generally trusted advisers with no familial associations and he has demonstrated how useful he can be to just about everyone.  But he has his own agenda. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch

As for Rugen, the point is that a man who has been castrated does not develop facial hair.  So perhaps, Varys was 'cut' but not everything was taken.  But I find the whole story suspect at this point.  

Rugen knows the bowels of Kingslanding very well, all the secret passages.  When he leaves the castle he does so secretly int he guise of Rugen, a begging brother and even a woman. 

However, I think his natural appearance serves as a disguise, since very few have seen it.  Scarred face, dark beard and rotting teeth.

I quite agree that Varys is working on behalf of Young Griff. Most days I believe he is Aegon, but I could be persuaded that he's an imposter or even a Blackfyre. And I also believe that he's called the mummer's dragon, because he's backed by mummers Varys and Illyrio. My objection to Varys's true persona as being Rugen is more from a literary standpoint. It's an unnecessary extra layer without a purpose. I'm not saying it absolutely cannot be true. I'm just saying it should have a purpose. Now if you were to propose that he himself is a Blackfyre - who is the current leader of the Golden Company? Harry Strickland? That would be a clever plot twist to have a secret undercover Blackfyre Rebellion.

Edited by Feather Crystal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The discussion seemed to be stalled.  Sorry for taking it off topic.

No need to apologize :) Don't we always stray over here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×