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Heresy 226 of wolves, dragons and other familiars

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17 minutes ago, corbon said:

About tPtwP (shouldn't it really be the Dragon that was promised? At least in Valaryian?):

I have asserted this as well before. It’s almost like a recipe. Do this, and this, and this, and at the end you’ll get a dragon!

19 minutes ago, corbon said:

t s very clear the that tPtwP prophecy is the Azor Ahai reborn prophecy. And its at least 1000yrs old, predating the Doom and the loss of Targaryen Dragons. It may or may not predate the rise of Valyria - clearly AAv1 does, but that does not tell us when the prophecy of his return started.
Its also clear that the prophecy relates to dragons somehow, since both Aemon (talking about tPtwP) an

It’s said Azor Ahai slew a great beast with Lightbringer. If the great beast was a dragon then it only seems logical that the prince or princess that was promised would want to be able to identify Azor Ahai reborn so that he or she doesn’t slay the dragon that was promised!

3 hours ago, JNR said:

I also notice Dany doesn't seem to have been born under a bleeding star, or in a time when the stars bleed.  Aemon conveniently ignores this problem, which makes me question his analysis.

Rhaegar sighted the bleeding comet the night Aegon was conceived not born, but the timing of the bleeding comet’s return may have coincided with Darnery’s rebirth in the funeral pyre that also hatched the eggs.

Melisandre and other Rh’llorists desire a summer without end. Dragons are associated with fire and the lands of the long summer. They may be perpetuating a propaganda war against the traditional role of Azor Ahai as a dragon slayer and purposely conflating the legends to make Azor Ahai a hero for summer. If they proclaim Daenerys as Azor Ahai reborn it would weaken the claim if anyone else would rise up and try to take the name.

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HBO nonsense aside, do we have any evidence that the language that they (whoever they refers to) mistranslated was Valyrian?

I know that this theory is popular but where did we come up with the notion that dragon and prince were the same word in Valyrian?

I mean the Valyrians were a freehold they didn't have kings or princes.  However, their most notable enemy did refer to their own sovereign as a prince.  It would then seem odd that the Valyrians would then use the same word for both princes and dragons.  For example, I doubt they would have referenced Prince Garin as a dragon.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

HBO nonsense aside, do we have any evidence that the language that they (whoever they refers to) mistranslated was Valyrian?

Good question

Quote

I know that this theory is popular but where did we come up with the notion that dragon and prince were the same word in Valyrian?

I think its a combination two things.
First, the fact that the Targaryens refer to themselves, especially princes and kings, as Dragons. Aegon I "the Dragon" and Daeron I "the Young Dragon" for example, as well as wider generalities.
Second, Aemon's statements about the language misleading them.

I looked and couldn't find any other relevant reference.

So I think you are right, absent something I've missed, that its not actually confirmed that the original language in which Dragon is genderless (properly all languages should have the word dragon as genderless as dragons change genders) and confused with prince is High Valyrian.

I still think the most sense is that the PtwP is a old (1000yr+) High Valyrian translation of the older AA prophesies. And the Asshaian prophecy used the word dragon, which the Valyrians translated as Prince, but actually works for beast/dragon, targ prince or Targ princess (in High Valyrian context). But we don't know this for sure.

 

 

Edited by corbon

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I have asserted this as well before. It’s almost like a recipe. Do this, and this, and this, and at the end you’ll get a dragon!

Well, if you want to fiddle with prophecies, perhaps. But I think treating it as a recipe is asking to get burned - as a number of Targaryens did.

A recipe is a set of conditions that cause a certain result.
This is more like a list of conditions that will appear congruent with a certain result, but are not in themselves the cause of that result. 

Matching these conditions will not necessarily cause AA to return. But when he returns, these conditions will have been matched.

Quote

It’s said Azor Ahai slew a great beast with Lightbringer. If the great beast was a dragon then it only seems logical that the prince or princess that was promised would want to be able to identify Azor Ahai reborn so that he or she doesn’t slay the dragon that was promised!

Well, since according to Mel, AA will wake dragons out of stone, I don't think he's likely to be accidentally killing the wrong dragons. 

Quote

Rhaegar sighted the bleeding comet the night Aegon was conceived not born, but the timing of the bleeding comet’s return may have coincided with Darnery’s rebirth in the funeral pyre that also hatched the eggs.

I think its clear that the bleeding star business is related to AA's return, but not specifically to his birth or particular timing.
Mel:

Quote

(1) In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." 
...
 (2) 
When the red 
star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. 

Aemon:

Quote

later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! 

Marwyn: 

Quote

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it.

The first quote from Mel actually says something different. Not that the person who will be AAv2 is born under the bleeding star, but that its under the bleeding star that Lightbringer will be drawn. 
Seems to me that the AA being 'born' bit is really about the timing of that person becoming AAv2 - ie AAv2 being 're-born', not the birth of the person who will become AA. Rhaegar misinterpreted because the sign fitted his misinterpretation.

Dany seems to be it, with "lightbringer" being the dragons, her "red sword" that was 'drawn' (born from rock) in the pyre in which she burned Drogo. At that time AA/tPrincesstwP was 'born'.

Mel has the clues already. The red sword is not a sword at all. Its the dragons born from stone. Because thats what AA is supposed to do - draw a red sword and birth dragons from stone, apparently the same event in two different passages/translations..

 

 

 

Edited by corbon

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, corbon said:

Good question

I think its a combination two things.
First, the fact that the Targaryens refer to themselves, especially princes and kings, as Dragons. Aegon I "the Dragon" and Daeron I "the Young Dragon" for example, as well as wider generalities.
Second, Aemon's statements about the language misleading them.

I looked and couldn't find any other relevant reference.

So I think you are right, absent something I've missed, that its not actually confirmed that the original language in which Dragon is genderless (properly all languages should have the word dragon as genderless as dragons change genders) and confused with prince is High Valyrian.

I still think the most sense is that the PtwP is a old (1000yr+) High Valyrian translation of the older AA prophesies. And the Asshaian prophecy used the word dragon, which the Valyrians translated as Prince, but actually works for beast/dragon, targ prince or Targ princess (in High Valyrian context). But we don't know this for sure.

 

 

Yet the Targaryens never referred to themselves as Kings and Princes until they conquered Westeros, where they promptly took up the feudal titles of their host land.

So it really doesn’t make sense that any Valyrian prior to Aegon’s conquest would have translated the word dragon to Prince.  Princes were the sovereigns of their arch nemesis the Rhoynes.

(And notably there seems to be zero evidence of any mention of the Prince that was Promised prophecy associated with the Targaryens until the reign of Aegon V. )

Nor does it make any sense that a prophecized Valyrian messiah would have been given the title of Prince.  

For examples, Jesus was given the sobriquet the “King of Kings”.  Which makes sense, because the head sovereign of the Israelites were historically referred to as Kings.

If the Asshai legend of Azor Ahai was adopted by another culture to reference a future messiah as a Prince, it makes more sense that the culture that would have appropriated the legend would have been the Rhoynes and not the Valyrians.  

Now if we fast forward to the first reference of the Prince that was Promised prophecy with House Targaryens, we find ourselves in the reign of Aegon V.  Which is notable because in addition to being a descendant of House Targaryen, Aegon V was also descended from two Dornish houses, House Dayne and House Martel.   House Martel in particular was known for carrying on the tradition of their Rhoynish ancestors including the tradition of naming their sovereign a Prince.

So perhaps the Targaryens became convinced that their household was destined to produce the Prince that was Promised, not because of their paternal ancestors but instead because of their maternal ones.

Which might also explain why Rhaegar was married to a Dornish wife, and partly why he became convinced that his half Dornish son Aegon, was the one destined to become the Prince that was Promised.

 

ETA: one other point to consider.  Aemon bemoans their mistake in assuming that TPTWP had to be a Prince, a male.  Now consider the Dorne’s practice of making the first born the head sovereign no matter the gender.  A practice that I believed they carried over from the Rhoynes.  So once again if the Prince that was Promised is an allusion to a head sovereign, a sovereign that can be either male or female, once again the prophecy being one of Rhoynish descent makes the most sense.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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30 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So it really doesn’t make sense that any Valyrian prior to Aegon’s conquest would have translated the word dragon to Prince.  Princes were the sovereigns of their arch nemesis the Rhoynes.

But if they used the word Dragon to refer to their most senior leader*, then its only the Westerosi Targaryens that have been mislead into the Prince translation. 

*I wonder if the Valyrian word used for Archon, their temporarily elected leaders/rulers, was Dragon?
Is that like the Roman 'Dictator'? Perhaps not since it seemed they also sent Archon's to govern other cities. "Governor" seems to fit better maybe?
The Free cities use the word Archon, but they don't use High Valyrian as their primary tongue, so that may be different to the High Valyrian term..

The deceiving themselves can be from the start, Valyrians thinking of a male leader. The language can be misleading them for a 1000yrs with only the later Targs using the word Prince.

30 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Nor does it make any sense that a prophecized Valyrian messiah would have been given the title of Prince.  

Well, it's the Dragon that was Promised, its only the later Targs we hear saying Prince.

30 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So perhaps the Targaryens became convinced that their household was destined to produce the Prince that was Promised, not because of their paternal ancestors but instead because of their maternal ones.

Which might also explain why Rhaegar was married to a Dornish wife, and partly why he became convinced that his half Dornish son Aegon, was the one destined to become the Prince that was Promised.

Haha, that doesn't sound very much like the normal Targaryen self-centred worldview.

30 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

ETA: one other point to consider.  Aemon bemoans their mistake in assuming that TPTWP had to be a Prince, a male.  Now consider the Dorne’s practice of making the first born the head sovereign no matter the gender.  A practice that I believed they carried over from the Rhoynes.  So once again if the Prince that was Promised is an allusion to a head sovereign, a sovereign that can be either male or female, once again the prophecy being one of Rhoynish descent makes the most sense.

It does fit well that the Targaryens 'stole' the prohecy from a Rhoynish source.
I still think though that the prophecy says Dragon, and its only the later Targs that have misunderstood it as Prince. 

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On 8/18/2019 at 12:05 AM, Black Crow said:

I'm still minded of that SSM which said that the three heads of the dragon need not be Targaryens. That immediately tells me that they need not be siblings and while there was a popular theory at the time that the heads equated to dragon-riders and that the SSM could be interpreted as hinting Tyrion might be one of the three, I'm more inclined to go with Alienarea's entirely sensible suggestion that it in fact relates to a triumvirate. They might also be dragonriders or at least two of them might if one isn't a Targaryen, but being a head and a dragonrider clearly aren't synonymous

The only point to add is that various people in-world, clearly think of them as dragon riders. And no one things of them as equal rulers.

They could be wrong - some of them (like Jorah) clearly don't really know much about the prophecy. But its also possible that they know things we haven't heard yet.

18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

Mel claims the story was written down [not necessarily originating] in the books of Asshai 3,000 years ago and Aemon says she's talking about the Battle for the Dawn. He has read the Jade Companion so knows what she is talking about. She thinks he's talking about the Prince, but he refers to the Targaryens  being mistaken about it for 1,000 years.

The two therefore may not be one and the same and neither has anything to do with Westeros

I think the references in common are two coincidental to think that they are not one and the same. Aemon clearly references tPtwP  to the same markers that Mel and Benerro reference AA to.
Mel might be the only one who explicitly connects the two, but the connection is very clear independently of her.

7 hours ago, JNR said:

It's really never specified in canon what the PtwP is supposed to do.  Without the exact language, we can only fumble at the edges of various possibilities.

Given the connections between Aemon's tPtwP, Benarro's AA, Mel's equation of the two and Marwyn understanding the Dany reference and naming the prophecy markers, it seems to me to be a very safe bet that there is only one prophecy here.

And while each may mention or distort the purpose or effects of the prophesied character's appearance due to their own biases or reasons, its clear they are all related to the War for the Dawn v2.

So I would say the purpose of tPtwP is to drive away the darkness and winter. 

7 hours ago, JNR said:

Aemon could read this, think "that means dragons," and therefore perceive Dany's hatching dragons as proving she is the PtwP... but that wouldn't make him right.  We need the actual text.

Its pretty clear with Mel's reference to "waking Dragons" and Aemon's reference that Dany's "dragons prove it", that Dragons are directly connected in the text.

7 hours ago, JNR said:

I also notice Dany doesn't seem to have been born under a bleeding star, or in a time when the stars bleed.  Aemon conveniently ignores this problem, which makes me question his analysis.

See what I said earlier. Its not Dany's birth 15 years or so earlier that is at issue, its the 'birth', or rebirth, of AA/tPtwP, when the Dragons are reborn under the bleeding star.

7 hours ago, JNR said:

Mel is unique in equating AA and the PtwP, though.  Notice Benerro has nothing whatever to say about princes that were promised, what they will do, or how they will be known.

Given the markers Aemon references to tPtwP I think its quite clear he is implicitly equating tPtwP with AA. Even if he doesn't explicitly state it or think of AA at all. Its clearly the same prophecy.

In other word, its not just Mel. Aemon equates tPtwP with AA. To us at least, even if maybe not in his own head.

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43 minutes ago, corbon said:

But if they used the word Dragon to refer to their most senior leader*, then its only the Westerosi Targaryens that have been mislead into the Prince translation. 

 *I wonder if the Valyrian word used for Archon, their temporarily elected leaders/rulers, was Dragon?
Is that like the Roman 'Dictator'? Perhaps not since it seemed they also sent Archon's to govern other cities. "Governor" seems to fit better maybe?
The Free cities use the word Archon, but they don't use High Valyrian as their primary tongue, so that may be different to the High Valyrian term..

The deceiving themselves can be from the start, Valyrians thinking of a male leader. The language can be misleading them for a 1000yrs with only the later Targs using the word Prince.

Maybe, but  we haven’t been given any indication that the Valyrians ever had a single sovereign whether called Dragon or any other name.  At least not until Aegon conquered Westeros.  The closest hint we have about the Valyrian’s power structure probably comes from Volantis, where we have three elected rulers, none of which are titled Dragon.

50 minutes ago, corbon said:

Well, it's the Dragon that was Promised, its only the later Targs we hear saying Prince

Yet we’ve never heard the phrase, the Dragon that was promised.  As far as I can tell it’s always been the Prince that was Promised dating back a thousand years.  I suppose claiming that Prince = Dragon in some language could cure this, but there is no justification for this interpretation in the text.

54 minutes ago, corbon said:

Haha, that doesn't sound very much like the normal Targaryen self-centred worldview.

I disagree.  It seems very like the Targaryens to come to the conclusion that a Rhoynish prophecy can only be fulfilled when the Rhoynish bloodlines marry into their bloodline.  If the Rhoynes appropriated the Asshai messiah as theirs, the Targaryens in turn appropriated it for themselves.  Which bring me to my final point.

I think what we may be seeing is a synthesis of messianic legends from several different cultures.

It starts with the Asshai legend of Azor Ahai, and the prediction of his rebirth (a la Jesus and King Arthur) during a time when the world is in need of a savior.

The Rhoynes may have coopted this legend to tell of their own messiah, a Prince of Princes, who like the legend of Azor Ahai will come in salt and smoke under a bleeding star.

While the Valyrians may have their own obsession with The Dragon.  My personal thought is that this may be tied into an obsession of dying and being reborn as a dragon.  And if the Valyrians maintained a psychic link with dragons, then this would probably be a logical next step in the evolution of the relationship.  Becoming one with the dragon and leaving your frail,short lived mortal body behind.

If the Asshai prophecy dealt with dragons, and the Rhoynish prophecy is based on the Asshai prophecy, then it would be a logical conclusion for the Targaryens to assume that their bloodlines and past connection with dragons would be necessary for the fulfillment of the prophecy.  

So the messianic figure is slated to be a Rhoynish sovereign, a Prince (or Princess, those progressive Rhoynes) which in turn is slated to be The Dragon.  Which may be very literal indeed. And the possibility of this messianic figure becoming an actual fire breathing dragon,  may explain why Septon Barth’s writing on the gender of biological dragons is referenced by Aemon.

 

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51 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Maybe, but  we haven’t been given any indication that the Valyrians ever had a single sovereign whether called Dragon or any other name.  At least not until Aegon conquered Westeros.  

Sure we do. 

Quote

The Valyrians had no kings but instead called themselves the Freehold because all the citizenry who held land had a voice. Archons might be chosen to help lead, but they were elected by the lords freeholder from amongst their number, and only for a limited time. 

Quote

Qohor and Norvos were founded following religious schisms. Others, such as Old Volantis and Lys, were trading colonies first and foremost, founded by wealthy merchants and nobles who purchased the right to rule themselves as clients of the Freehold rather than subjects. These cities chose their own leaders rather than receiving archons dispatched from Valyria (often on dragonback) to oversee them. It is claimed in some histories that Pentos and Lorath were of a third type—cities already extant before the Valyrians came whose rulers paid homage to Valyria and thus retained their right to native rule.

I can't see the Targaryens dispatching 3 lords to rule each minor city, so the Archons they sent would be singular governors. Which implies the Archons elected to lead themselves (if/when they did) would be singular, like the Roman Dictator, who was elected (as opposed to the Triumvir, who appointed themselves).

Quote

The closest hint we have about the Valyrian’s power structure probably comes from Volantis, where we have three elected rulers, none of which are titled Dragon.

Old Volantis was allowed to choose its own leader(s). I can see them being required to elect 3 leaders in order to reduce the chance of a single populist leading a revolt against Valyria.
Or, as you suggest, its a direct copy of the Valyrian system. Perhaps the Valyrians did send 3 governors (still seems ridiculous to me).
Impossible to tell for sure with what we know. 

The modern Volanteens use the word Archon. They don't commonly use a bastardised Valyrian, rather than High Valyrian, so Archon could be a replacement word for the original High Valyrian.

Quote

Yet we’ve never heard the phrase, the Dragon that was promised.  As far as I can tell it’s always been the Prince that was Promised dating back a thousand years.  I suppose claiming that Prince = Dragon in some language could cure this, but there is no justification for this interpretation in the text.

I think Aemon gives us exactly that indication. Its not the Prince that was Promised at all, as thats gendered language, he tells us. They've been making the mistake for 1000 years. It was Dragon that was promised, which can be Prince or Princess, hence Daenerys.

Quote

No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

Clearly there is a translation from Dragon to Prince, which has misled them all for 1000 yrs.

Therefore, it was actually the Dragon that was Promised.
 

Quote

I disagree.  It seems very like the Targaryens to come to the conclusion that a Rhoynish prophecy can only be fulfilled when the Rhoynish bloodlines marry into their bloodline.  If the Rhoynes appropriated the Asshai messiah as theirs, the Targaryens in turn appropriated it for themselves.  Which bring me to my final point.

I think what we may be seeing is a synthesis of messianic legends from several different cultures.

It starts with the Asshai legend of Azor Ahai, and the prediction of his rebirth (a la Jesus and King Arthur) during a time when the world is in need of a savior.

The Rhoynes may have coopted this legend to tell of their own messiah, a Prince of Princes, who like the legend of Azor Ahai will come in salt and smoke under a bleeding star.

While the Valyrians may have their own obsession with The Dragon.  My personal thought is that this may be tied into an obsession of dying and being reborn as a dragon.  And if the Valyrians maintained a psychic link with dragons, then this would probably be a logical next step in the evolution of the relationship.  Becoming one with the dragon and leaving your frail,short lived mortal body behind.

If the Asshai prophecy dealt with dragons, and the Rhoynish prophecy is based on the Asshai prophecy, then it would be a logical conclusion for the Targaryens to assume that their bloodlines and past connection with dragons would be necessary for the fulfillment of the prophecy.  

So the messianic figure is slated to be a Rhoynish sovereign, a Prince (or Princess, those progressive Rhoynes) which in turn is slated to be The Dragon.  Which may be very literal indeed. And the possibility of this messianic figure becoming an actual fire breathing dragon,  may explain why Septon Barth’s writing on the gender of biological dragons is referenced by Aemon.

 

Fair enough.

Edited by corbon

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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Maybe, but  we haven’t been given any indication that the Valyrians ever had a single sovereign whether called Dragon or any other name.  At least not until Aegon conquered Westeros.  The closest hint we have about the Valyrian’s power structure probably comes from Volantis, where we have three elected rulers, none of which are titled Dragon.

Yet we’ve never heard the phrase, the Dragon that was promised.  As far as I can tell it’s always been the Prince that was Promised dating back a thousand years.  I suppose claiming that Prince = Dragon in some language could cure this, but there is no justification for this interpretation in the text.

I disagree.  It seems very like the Targaryens to come to the conclusion that a Rhoynish prophecy can only be fulfilled when the Rhoynish bloodlines marry into their bloodline.  If the Rhoynes appropriated the Asshai messiah as theirs, the Targaryens in turn appropriated it for themselves.  Which bring me to my final point.

I think what we may be seeing is a synthesis of messianic legends from several different cultures.

It starts with the Asshai legend of Azor Ahai, and the prediction of his rebirth (a la Jesus and King Arthur) during a time when the world is in need of a savior.

The Rhoynes may have coopted this legend to tell of their own messiah, a Prince of Princes, who like the legend of Azor Ahai will come in salt and smoke under a bleeding star.

While the Valyrians may have their own obsession with The Dragon.  My personal thought is that this may be tied into an obsession of dying and being reborn as a dragon.  And if the Valyrians maintained a psychic link with dragons, then this would probably be a logical next step in the evolution of the relationship.  Becoming one with the dragon and leaving your frail,short lived mortal body behind.

If the Asshai prophecy dealt with dragons, and the Rhoynish prophecy is based on the Asshai prophecy, then it would be a logical conclusion for the Targaryens to assume that their bloodlines and past connection with dragons would be necessary for the fulfillment of the prophecy.  

So the messianic figure is slated to be a Rhoynish sovereign, a Prince (or Princess, those progressive Rhoynes) which in turn is slated to be The Dragon.  Which may be very literal indeed. And the possibility of this messianic figure becoming an actual fire breathing dragon,  may explain why Septon Barth’s writing on the gender of biological dragons is referenced by Aemon.

 

This makes a lot of sense to me.  If you look at Doran Martell's investment in marriage contracts to Targs; I keep wondering if the snippet we get from Barristan Selmy about The Prince is really referring to the Prince of Dorne.
 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

Ser Barristan went on. "I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen."

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

"A woods witch?" Dany was astonished.

A slightly different syntax from 'the prince that was promised'. 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - The Princess In The Tower

She gave him no chance to reply. "I know it is my duty to provide an heir for Dorne, I have never been forgetful of that. I would have wed, and gladly, but the matches that you brought to me were insults. With every one you spit on me. If you ever felt any love for me at all, why offer me to Walder Frey?"

"Because I knew that you would spurn him. I had to be seen to try to find a consort for you once you'd reached a certain age, else it would have raised suspicions, but I dared not bring you any man you might accept. You were promised, Arianne."

Promised? Arianne stared at him incredulously. "What are you saying? Is this another lie? You never said . . ."

"The pact was sealed in secret. I meant to tell you when you were old enough . . . when you came of age, I thought, but . . ."

"I am three-and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown."

"I know. If I kept you ignorant too long, it was only to protect you. Arianne, your nature . . . to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and the Lady Nym. And if they knew . . . Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who might the Fowler twins confide in? I could not take the risk."

She was lost, confounded. Promised. I was promised. "Who is it? Who have I been betrothed to, all these years?"

"It makes no matter. He is dead."

 

I'm guessing that the pact signed in secret has something to do with the marriage contract between Viserys and Arianne witnessed by the Sealord  of Braavos.  When presented to Dany by Quentin, she accepts it's validity even though she is not specifically mentioned. (according to Selmy). 

As I've mentioned before Doran Martell, seems to have all his bases covered:  Rhaegar and Elia, Viserys and Arianne; then Quentyn and Dany and finally, Arianne and Aegon.  So we don't have the whole prophecy from the woods witch.

The question is why is the Prince of Dorne covering all the bases unless it has something to do with a prophecy.   He dared not marry Arianne to anyone, other than offspring of the line of Aerys and Rhaella.  Perhaps because the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia was supposed to produce the promised one and then they died.  So he now has Sarella following in Oberyn's footsteps at the Citadel, looking for something. 

But it seems to me that Martel thinks that offspring from the line of Martell and Targaryen are key to something.  Perhaps Rhaegar thinks the same thing since he claims that Aegon is the outcome of that prophecy.  Perhaps he was told as much by the GoHH/Woods Witch when he went on his solo visits to Summerhall.  That might explain why he was happiest visiting a place that is connected to tragedy.

So I do see how TPWIP could be a Rhoynish prophecy connected in some way to a messianic prophecy.  So if Mel is right and the pwip is also the one who wakes dragons from stone; that leaves Aegon out.  It also leaves Dany out since she is not the offspring of Dorne/Valyria.  But how can that be if she is the one who wakes dragons from stone? It would mean that she is the offspring of those two bloodlines. 

That brings ups House Dayne.  Perhaps it isn't a comet that shows up on the day of birth, but rather someone  born to the falling star of House Dayne.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)

If Maester Aemon left the Jade Companion for Jon to read, either he was providing the full story or a more accurate story. There's no way for us to tell, and even then history books are written by the victors and facts can and do get twisted. I associate the prince that was promised with dragons and Azor Ahai as a dragon killer, so to think these two figures are the same person seem to be a contradiction to me. The "bleeding star" can be a herald for both people.

Quote

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

Septon Barth is credited with saying dragons are neither male or female, but it is unclear if he was also the one that translated the prophecy.

The bleeding star is thought to have been a comet and that it heralds the coming of a dragon. The Targaryens believed that and so did the wildling Osha, not that she would be an authority, but the wildings seem to have retained ancient knowledge.

Melisandre seems to be on her own mission and it seems like she's just using prophecy for her own agenda. Her declaration that Stannis is the savior Azor Ahai is just propaganda. She glamoured a sword for Stannis so that people would believe he was Azor Ahai and inserting the prince that was promised is just more propaganda designed to bolster support. Stannis never woke dragons from stone, but Melisandre doesn't seem to be troubled by that detail. I think she knows Azor Ahai never woke dragons, but in fact slew a dragon. She probably knows Stannis is neither the prince that was promised nor Azor Ahai. She saw him in her flames battling against the forces of darkness and is using the two prophecies to gather an army.

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think she knows Azor Ahai never woke dragons, but in fact slew a dragon. She probably knows Stannis is neither the prince that was promised nor Azor Ahai. She saw him in her flames battling against the forces of darkness and is using the two prophecies to gather an army.

This is what she tells Davos:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos IV

"Speak sense to me, woman."

"When the fires speak more plainly, so shall I. There is truth in the flames, but it is not always easy to see." The great ruby at her throat drank fire from the glow of the brazier. "Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon."

"I have told you, no."

A Storm of Swords - Davos V

"There are no gods save R'hllor and the Other, whose name must not be spoken." Melisandre's mouth made a hard red line. "And small men curse what they cannot understand."

"I am a small man," Davos admitted, "so tell me why you need this boy Edric Storm to wake your great stone dragon, my lady." He was determined to say the boy's name as often as he could.

"Only death can pay for life, my lord. A great gift requires a great sacrifice."

 

She is talking about a singular dragon.  Davos calls it the great stone dragon.  Of course, this brings up Dany's 'wake he dragon' dreams.  Perhaps this is the great stone dragon.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

Seems she has to be spiritually transformed before she can 'wake the dragon':

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

Wings shadowed her fever dreams.

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

She was walking down a long hall beneath high stone arches. She could not look behind her, must not look behind her. There was a door ahead of her, tiny with distance, but even from afar, she saw that it was painted red. She walked faster, and her bare feet left bloody footprints on the stone.

"You don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

"… don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

Viserys stood before her, screaming. "The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned." The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

"… want to wake the dragon …"

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

"… wake the dragon …"

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

"… the dragon …"

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

She woke to the taste of ashes.

"No," she moaned, "no, please."

"Khaleesi?" Jhiqui hovered over her, a frightened doe.

The tent was drenched in shadow, still and close. Flakes of ash drifted upward from a brazier, and Dany followed them with her eyes through the smoke hole above. Flying, she thought. I had wings, I was flying. But it was only a dream. "Help me," she whispered, struggling to rise. "Bring me …" Her voice was raw as a wound, and she could not think what she wanted. Why did she hurt so much? It was as if her body had been torn to pieces and remade from the scraps. "I want …"

 

This whole things occurs during and in the aftermath of the MMD ritual and Dany's labor.  She woke the dragon, became the dragon and was torn apart and remade.  Sacrificed her unborn son.

Mel might have some inkling of this transformation and thinks she can accomplish it by sacrificing Edric; but clearly Dany and MMD are the two who accomplish it.

Among all the visions; this one is interesting in view of Frey Family Reunion's proposal:

Quote

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade.

The obvious link to swords of pale fire is the Dawn Sword and the tower it's kept in:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"My father was Ser Arthur's elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born."

 

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This is what she tells Davos:

She is talking about a singular dragon.  Davos calls it the great stone dragon.  Of course, this brings up Dany's 'wake he dragon' dreams.  Perhaps this is the great stone dragon.

Seems she has to be spiritually transformed before she can 'wake the dragon':

This whole things occurs during and in the aftermath of the MMD ritual and Dany's labor.  She woke the dragon, became the dragon and was torn apart and remade.  Sacrificed her unborn son.

Mel might have some inkling of this transformation and thinks she can accomplish it by sacrificing Edric; but clearly Dany and MMD are the two who accomplish it.

Among all the visions; this one is interesting in view of Frey Family Reunion's proposal:

The obvious link to swords of pale fire is the Dawn Sword and the tower it's kept in:

 

 

I agree Daenerys is the great dragon that was awoken from the flames. She was reborn in that funeral pyre. The bleeding comet was seen when Aegon was conceived and seen again when Daenerys was reborn. Opposite ends of the cycle of life and in line with the two sides of the same coin and the undoing of history.

Melisandre pushing Davos to give up Edric so that she can wake a stone dragon is more proof that she is trying to manipulate the prophecy to fit her agenda. 

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9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree Daenerys is the great dragon that was awoken from the flames.

I think she was remade and reborn before the funeral pyre when MMD wakes powers old and dark .  What she does with drogon, MMD and the eggs, follows when she has immunity from the fire.  This is the part where she wakes dragons from stone; as opposed to waking the stone dragon.  The transformation precedes the act of hatching the dragon eggs.

The question is whether Dany died giving birth and was reborn.  The taste of ashes in her mouth reminds me of Beric saying essentially the same thing.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya VII

"Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman's hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?"

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think she was remade and reborn before the funeral pyre when MMD wakes powers old and dark .  What she does with drogon, MMD and the eggs, follows when she has immunity from the fire.  This is the part where she wakes dragons from stone; as opposed to waking the stone dragon.  The transformation precedes the act of hatching the dragon eggs.

The question is whether Dany died giving birth and was reborn.  The taste of ashes in her mouth reminds me of Beric saying essentially the same thing.

 

A rebirth would require dying first so you’re probably right that she died giving birth and would explain why she doesn’t remember seeing Rhaego when he was delivered.

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17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Rhaegar sighted the bleeding comet the night Aegon was conceived not born

That's true, and it brings Rhaegar's interpretation into question as well. 

Other than Rhaegar's take there is zero apparent reason to suppose the prophecy has to do with conception as opposed to birth.

But since we haven't read the prophecy, we're really just fumbling around if we think we know what it says.

17 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

the timing of the bleeding comet’s return may have coincided with Darnery’s rebirth in the funeral pyre that also hatched the eggs

It's a stretch to call what happened to Dany there a rebirth, in my opinion. 

You'd make a stronger case by arguing her three dragons, which really were born then, are the PtwP.

However, even if you see it this way, it's certainly not what Aemon had mind in talking about salt and smoke.  Because  Aemon wasn't in Essos when the dragons hatched, and he has has no idea of the circumstances.  When Aemon says Dany was born amidst salt and smoke he means Dragonstone.

13 hours ago, corbon said:

So I would say the purpose of tPtwP is to drive away the darkness and winter. 

One can say anything one likes, but it's an objective fact that in canon, the future behavior of the PtwP is never provided. 

I also note that Aemon's behavior is really not consistent with the premise that he thinks AAR and PtwP are the same. 

Consider that we know he thinks Dany = PtwP.  Therefore, if he thought PtwP = AAR, then by the transitive property of prophetic interpretation he would believe Dany = AA. 

It would then be a top priority of Aemon's to get the Jade Compendium into her hands, and make damned sure she reads up on AA, so that she understands full well what she will need before she rides forth into battle.

But as we know, that is not what Aemon did at all...

Quote

"I'll be sure to read it," Jon Snow replied.

A line of pale snot ran from Maester Aemon's nose. He wiped it away with the back of his glove. "Knowledge is a weapon, Jon. Arm yourself well before you ride forth to battle."

 

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Posted (edited)

The story of course is also complicated by Old Ghis.

Looking at the stories as told to us, we have Azor Ahai, who was a hero of renown armed with the customary sword, who slew a monster. The exact form of the monster isn't laid out but if we were to hear the story in isolation it would plausibly be interpreted as a dragon.

This would actually be consistent with the Ghiscari connection, for their empire was destroyed by the Valyrians and their dragons.

Azor Ahai might therefore have been a hero who fought against the Valyrians and slew at least one dragon

This would in turn be consistent with Master Benero's assertion that Danaerys Targaryen of this parish is Azor Ahai and is going to to destroy the last Valyrians holed up behind the Black Walls of Volantis and so on and so forth.

By this token therefore the Prince and Azor Ahai may not be one and the same after all, but rather that the Prince is going to save the Blood of Valyria from Azor Ahai.

But wait... When the aforementioned Old Blood attempted to rebuild the Empire, Aegon the Conqueror [and his dragons] joined the coalition to drive them back to Volantis, which in turn begs the question as to why the Targaryens were sitting on Dragonstone in the first place when the big bang happened. Were they exiled or did they go there of their own accord?

None of this is to advance a theory, but rather to point out the many contradictions and more in the Azor Ahai story - and the Prince. So many contradictions that it really is unwise to proclaim Our Mel's version as the only true and authorised interpretation - which I still maintain is what Maester Aemon was telling Jon.

Edited by Black Crow
spelling

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JNR said:

It's a stretch to call what happened to Dany there a rebirth, in my opinion. 

You'd make a stronger case by arguing her three dragons, which really were born then, are the PtwP.

I have asserted this before that the dragons are the prince that was promised, but I am equally satisfied that Daenerys was reborn.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

This would in turn be consistent with Master Benero's assertion that Danaerys Targaryen of this parish is Azor Ahai and is going to to destroy the last Valyrians holed up behind the Black Walls of Volantis and so on and so forth.

This is confusing to me which is why I think the Rh'llorists are waging a propaganda battle. Why are they so excited about Daenerys dragons if the dragonlords are responsible for their past destruction?  Azor Ahai was their champion, so why do they now claim Dany as their champion? Is it because she frees slaves?

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

But wait... When the aforementioned Old Blood attempted to rebuild the Empire, Aegon the Conqueror [and his dragons] joined the coalition to drive them back to Volantis, which in turn begs the question as to why the Targaryens were sitting on Dragonstone in the first place when the big bang happened. Were they exiled or did they go there of their own accord?

I thought the Targaryens moved to Dragonstone when one of their maiden daughters had a green dream of the Doom? Forcing any stragglers to remain in Volantis in order to be destroyed by the Doom sounds more like a self-serving power grab than in being saviors.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

None of this is to advance a theory, but rather to point out the many contradictions and more in the Azor Ahai story - and the Prince. So many contradictions that it really is unwise to proclaim Our Mel's version as the only true and authorised interpretation - which I still maintain is what Maester Aemon was telling Jon.

Exactly, so many contradictions.  I wouldn't proclaim Mel's version either.  I'm just looking at what we have been told about the prophecies and what has actually happened. 

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