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Black Crow

Heresy 226 of wolves, dragons and other familiars

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19 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't know Varys was loyal to Aerys, if he is a Blackfyre or otherwise backing a non Targaryen for the throne, he'd have motive to remove Aerys, as well as the means to contribute to the rebellion.   He may have worked with Robert or Robert may have learned something he did after.

What I find surprising is how Aerys and Robert both trusted Varys.   He doesn't seem like someone I would trust. 

They employed him because he's "a professional"

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't know Varys was loyal to Aerys, if he is a Blackfyre or otherwise backing a non Targaryen for the throne, he'd have motive to remove Aerys, as well as the means to contribute to the rebellion.   He may have worked with Robert or Robert may have learned something he did after.

What I find surprising is how Aerys and Robert both trusted Varys.   He doesn't seem like someone I would trust. 

I could see Varys starting out loyal to King Aerys II, but also selling secrets for his own profit - and then feeling remorseful after the Sack and realizing that his actions may have contributed to the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon - even if Aegon was swapped. It would be interesting if Varys turned out to be a character on his own redemption quest. 

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't know Varys was loyal to Aerys, if he is a Blackfyre or otherwise backing a non Targaryen for the throne, he'd have motive to remove Aerys, as well as the means to contribute to the rebellion.   He may have worked with Robert or Robert may have learned something he did after.

What I find surprising is how Aerys and Robert both trusted Varys.   He doesn't seem like someone I would trust. 

I’m a bit doubtful that Young Griff is another attempt at a Blackfyre rebellion, but it wouldn’t surprise me that Young Griff might have been passed off as a Blackfyre descendant to the Golden Company, just like he’s passed off as Rhaegar’s son to Jon Connington.

It all goes back to Varys’ lesson to Tyrion, power is a mummer’s trick.  Find out what motivates the sellswords and use it for your benefit.

It may simply be that Young Griff is the son of a Lyseni prostitute that Illyrio purchased from a pillowhouse, fell in love with and married.  Much to the dismay of the Pentosi elite.  Illyrio and Varys then perform a Pygmalion and sculpt Young Griff into someone they believe will be a good ruler, even if he doesn’t have the necessary bloodlines (but does have the necessary look).

My gut is telling me that Varys and Illyrio are Braavosi agents, and Young Griff may be the prince that appears out of nowhere to replace the ruler who has fallen out of favor with the Iron Bank.

ETA: the allusions to Pygmalion are certainly there if you know where to look:

First Tyrion comes out of his barrel to observe this:

Quote

Above him loomed a grotesque fat man with a forked yellow beard, holding a wooden mallet and an iron chisel.  

So Tyrion looks up to see Illyrio with the tools of a sculptor.

Then Tyrion looks out on the statue of Illyrio as a young man carved by a

Pytho Malanon.

i.e. Pygmalion.

 

 

Edited by Frey family reunion

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58 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

They employed him because he's "a professional"

I am not surprised they employed him, he is useful and was a threat if he was allowed to leave without a job offer.  But Aerys was paranoid about everything.   Robert hired his enemy's employee.   Yet we don't see any evidence either of them were guarded or suspicious.   Robert and the his council seem to trust Varys completely, with the exception of Littlefinger, who doesn't trust anyone. 

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37 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I am not surprised they employed him, he is useful and was a threat if he was allowed to leave without a job offer.  But Aerys was paranoid about everything.   Robert hired his enemy's employee.   Yet we don't see any evidence either of them were guarded or suspicious.   Robert and the his council seem to trust Varys completely, with the exception of Littlefinger, who doesn't trust anyone. 

I'm not sure about "trust"; the overwhelming impression from Lord Eddard's first meeting with him is that he was/is feared and also despised - especially because he is an eunuch, effeminate of manner and drenched in clouds of perfume - a mask which is in itself suggestive that all is not as he pretends.

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I can imagine Robert not taking Varys serious because he's an eunuch. I guess Robert wasn't afraid of anyone without a dick.

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6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm inclined to think that a certain man already has a presence in the story and we may have seen this character ourselves.  I think I read somewhere that Qaarth would have a bigger presence in the next book.  There are two characters that might be from Qaarth - Quaithe and Qyburn.  Quaithe may be a shadowbinder from Asshai but it doesn't mean she is a native of Asshai.  Qyburn is someone who experiments on the living and probably has some drug that immobilizes his victims without rendering them unconscious.  Which is essentially what happened to Varys.  If Qaarth is involved in upcoming plots; it makes sense that their agent would be placed close to the iron throne. 

Some hints towards Marwyn too.He's an archmaester Qyburn looked up to.

He is rumoured to make sacrifices to queer gods.The folly Varys was part of called to Oldtown on its circuit.

Marwyn seems an active proponent of sorcery,Varys apparently hates it.

Not sure about respective ages,but I'd say Qyburn is more of an age with Varys whereas Marwyn is likely significantly older.

There may be some wordplay with Myr in his name though by the same token I've just noticed the "burn" in Qyburn!

Edited by redriver

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2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't know Varys was loyal to Aerys, if he is a Blackfyre or otherwise backing a non Targaryen for the throne, he'd have motive to remove Aerys, as well as the means to contribute to the rebellion.   He may have worked with Robert or Robert may have learned something he did after.

What I find surprising is how Aerys and Robert both trusted Varys.   He doesn't seem like someone I would trust. 

I don't know that either of them trusted him. They kept him around because he was useful. 

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2 hours ago, redriver said:

Some hints towards Marwyn too.He's an archmaester Qyburn looked up to.

He is rumoured to make sacrifices to queer gods.The folly Varys was part of called to Oldtown on its circuit.

Marwyn seems an active proponent of sorcery,Varys apparently hates it.

Not sure about respective ages,but I'd say Qyburn is more of an age with Varys whereas Marwyn is likely significantly older.

There may be some wordplay with Myr in his name though by the same token I've just noticed the "burn" in Qyburn!

It does bring to mind Sam's first encounter with Marwyn.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Sam," said Alleras, "this is Archmaester Marwyn."

Marwyn wore a chain of many metals around his bull's neck. Save for that, he looked more like a dockside thug than a maester. His head was too big for his body, and the way it thrust forward from his shoulders, together with that slab of jaw, made him look as if he were about to tear off someone's head. Though short and squat, he was heavy in the chest and shoulders, with a round, rock-hard ale belly straining at the laces of the leather jerkin he wore in place of robes. Bristly white hair sprouted from his ears and nostrils. His brow beetled, his nose had been broken more than once, and sourleaf had stained his teeth a mottled red. He had the biggest hands that Sam had ever seen.

When Sam hesitated, one of those hands grabbed him by the arm and yanked him through the door. The room beyond was large and round. Books and scrolls were everywhere, strewn across the tables and stacked up on the floor in piles four feet high. Faded tapestries and ragged maps covered the stone walls. A fire was burning in the hearth, beneath a copper kettle. Whatever was inside of it smelled burned. Aside from that, the only light came from a tall black candle in the center of the room.

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?"

". . . obsidian," said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes.

The pasty-faced fellow is the Alchemist who now wears Pate's face and already present in the room with Marwyn.  It is not specifically said that Marwyn was spying on the conversation between Alleras and Samwell; but it seems likely to me that he was using a glass candle and the reason why he says he already knows everything that Sam has told Alleras.

So perhaps poor Pate didn't just lose his face to the Alchemist but some other body part now burnt in the copper kettle.

Edited by LynnS

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31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It does bring to mind Sam's first encounter with Marwyn.

The pasty-faced fellow is the Alchemist who now wears Pate's face and already present in the room with Marwyn.  It is not specifically said that Marwyn was spying on the conversation between Alleras and Samwell; but it seems likely to me that he was using a glass candle and the reason why he says he already knows everything that Sam has told Alleras.

So perhaps poor Pate didn't just lose his face to the Alchemist but some other body part now burnt in the copper kettle.

You’re probably correct about what’s in that kettle. Varys did describe some voice that spoke to the man that took and burned his manly parts. It was probably used to light a glass candle.

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It's like one of Varys' riddles.A sorcerer and a Faceless Man in the same room.Who wins?

I would take it Marwyn is not the FM's main objective.Intriguing set up.

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14 hours ago, redriver said:

It's like one of Varys' riddles.A sorcerer and a Faceless Man in the same room.Who wins?

I would take it Marwyn is not the FM's main objective.Intriguing set up.

I'm not sure that Marwyn isn't the one who contracted the FM to get the master key from Pate in the first place.  Marwyn leaves  immediately to travel to Mereen so can we assume that Pate still has the key. 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Kill him?" Sam said, shocked. "Why?"

"If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?" He spat. "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can."

"What will you do?" asked Alleras, the Sphinx.

"Get myself to Slaver's Bay, in Aemon's place. The swan ship that delivered Slayer should serve my needs well enough. The grey sheep will send their man on a galley, I don't doubt. With fair winds I should reach her first." Marwyn glanced at Sam again, and frowned. "You . . . you should stay and forge your chain. If I were you, I would do it quickly. A time will come when you'll be needed on the Wall." He turned to the pasty-faced novice. "Find Slayer a dry cell. He'll sleep here, and help you tend the ravens."

So I don't think Sam will be a target either.  It seems more likely to me that Pate will give Sam access to places off-limits to acolytes.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?"

When Sam does skeedaddle, he may just take that glass candle with him.  It's value as a weapon can't be lost on him.

Marwyn seems to think that the Citadel has already dispatched a maester but he means to get there first.  But I don't think he will beat Victarion and Moqorro. 

So I'll get to my cracked pot about Victarion claiming the horn.  I think he needs to literally drink from the cup of fire to claim it.  As Marwyn tells Sam lighting the glass candle involves sorcery which needs blood and fire.

Quote

"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed.

"What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.

"What feeds a dragon's fire?" Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

Assuming that winding the horn will bring a dragon to him; three others will wind the horn for him since no mortal man can wind it and live.  What then?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IX

… and folded. The dragon gave one last hiss and stretched out flat upon his belly. Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I.

Yes, I think Victarion is crazy enough to do it.  LOL

Edited by LynnS

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On 9/12/2019 at 2:26 PM, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that Marwyn isn't the one who contracted the FM to get the master key from Pate in the first place.  Marwyn leaves  immediately to travel to Mereen so can we assume that Pate still has the key. 

So I don't think Sam will be a target either.  It seems more likely to me that Pate will give Sam access to places off-limits to acolytes.

When Sam does skeedaddle, he may just take that glass candle with him.  It's value as a weapon can't be lost on him.

Marwyn seems to think that the Citadel has already dispatched a maester but he means to get there first.  But I don't think he will beat Victarion and Moqorro. 

So I'll get to my cracked pot about Victarion claiming the horn.  I think he needs to literally drink from the cup of fire to claim it.  As Marwyn tells Sam lighting the glass candle involves sorcery which needs blood and fire.

Assuming that winding the horn will bring a dragon to him; three others will wind the horn for him since no mortal man can wind it and live.  What then?

Yes, I think Victarion is crazy enough to do it.  LOL

And he might be undead enough to get away with it.The popular theory being that Moqorro killed and revived Victarion when healing his arm.It might have merit,-monkeys hurling themselves off the ship,the chapter ending out of strict POV.

Edited by redriver

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Kill him?" Sam said, shocked. "Why?"

"If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?" He spat. "The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons.

Is Marwyn implicating the Citadel here for the demise of the dragons? The first time I read the books, that's how i took it, however I think their efforts were more of a coincidence. They might think they eradicated the dragons, but I think its more likely that the door to magic had been closed and it just took 150 years for any residual magic to dissipate. But if Marwyn is referring to killing off people - well, that's a different story. The Citadel has probably killed a lot of people including eight of Aerys and Rhaella's children.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can."

Is Marwyn claiming to be of Targaryen blood? Sometimes we're given the last name of maesters like Walys Flowers for example, but Marwyn is just Marwyn or Marwyn "the Mage". Is that what he's talking about? Mage? He seems to have an inordinate amount of interest in magic and knows how to light a glass candle (blood sacrifice - Pate's penis perhaps?), so is his interest in magic the reason why the Citadel should not trust him?

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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I also thought that was an odd thing to say.  The citadel doesn't trust Aemon, not because he is personally interested in magic, but because of his family history.  As a consequence of this lack of trust, Aemon is sent to the Wall and not the Citadel, and is never an Archmaester.

Marwyn says he isn't trusted, and implies it is for the same reasons.   Regardless of if he is Targaryen or another family associated with magic, or it is just his personal interest, he isn't sent to the Wall and he is raised to Archmaester. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I also thought that was an odd thing to say.  The citadel doesn't trust Aemon, not because he is personally interested in magic, but because of his family history.  As a consequence of this lack of trust, Aemon is sent to the Wall and not the Citadel, and is never an Archmaester.

Marwyn says he isn't trusted, and implies it is for the same reasons.   Regardless of if he is Targaryen or another family associated with magic, or it is just his personal interest, he isn't sent to the Wall and he is raised to Archmaester. 

 

If I recall, Aemon volunteered to go to the Wall out of respect for Bloodraven. He was part of Bloodraven's honor escort. Bloodraven was banished to the Wall for leading Aenys Blackfyre to believe it was safe for him to attend a Great Council and plead his claim as a successor to Maekar. The Great Council chose Maekar's youngest son Aegon V, and one of Aegon's first decrees was to charge Bloodraven with murder, but he was allowed to choose the black.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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42 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If I recall, Aemon volunteered to go to the Wall out of respect for Bloodraven. He was part of Bloodraven's honor escort. Bloodraven was banished to the Wall for leading Aenys Blackfyre to believe it was safe for him to attend a Great Council and plead his claim as a successor to Maekar. The Great Council chose Maekar's youngest son Aegon V, and one of Aegon's first decrees was to charge Bloodraven with murder, but he was allowed to choose the black.

Marwyn's wording seems to back what you say, "allowed to waste his life".  But also implies Aemon would not be an Archmaester of the Citadel even if he chose differently, nor would someone from a different family with Aemon's aptitude be allowed to join the Watch if they volunteered. 

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59 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Marwyn's wording seems to back what you say, "allowed to waste his life".  But also implies Aemon would not be an Archmaester of the Citadel even if he chose differently, nor would someone from a different family with Aemon's aptitude be allowed to join the Watch if they volunteered. 

Maybe Aemon realized that the Citadel wouldn't promote him and that helped make his decision?

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I thought the official explanation, is that Aemon voluntarily went to the Wall to avoid being used as a pawn by those who didn’t want his younger brother to be king.  

Perhaps he believed that the Citadel might have been the group most likely to use him to contest his brother’s throne??

This would explain why Aemon would have wanted to leave Oldtown.

But it doesn’t really explain Marwyn’s comments.

Unless of course Marwyn’s point was that once Aemon was too old to be used as a tool for the throne, the Citadel was more than happy to leave him up at the Wall.  

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2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I thought the official explanation, is that Aemon voluntarily went to the Wall to avoid being used as a pawn by those who didn’t want his younger brother to be king.  

Yeah, you're right. I misspoke. I had forgotten that part! But Marywn does make it sound like it was more complicated.

 

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