Heresy 226 of wolves, dragons and other familiars

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, redriver said:

To try to clarify,these are my unrecorded impressions of the talk,so I may have run away with the wrong impression.Time travel powers do exist in Wild Cards but Martin moderates heavily what they can do or not in his "shared universe".

In this story time is linear.Time's arrow points to the future.A character,(Bran) can go backwards and witness events,seemingly anywhere.That's his superpower.

Time itself cannot be changed,how characters act can.

Will see if I can obtain a transcript or some such to clarify.

 

I seem to recall an assertion by you that the wheel of time was reset at Harrenhal.As in 

time

 

itself

and everyone is destined to live some sort of inverted parallel of history until momooomoo comes along or Dr Strange.

Are you retracting that?No real agency there.Everyone is micro plastic stuck in the wheel of time.

No need to explore the human heart in conflict.Or point.

You’ve misinterpreted my theory. I did use Dr Strange as an example, but it’s history that is repeating - not the lives of the characters.

The resetting at Harrenhal was to change the area and people that the historic events happened to. For example, Robert Baratheon’s claim for the Iron Throne was a repeat of the various Blackfyre Rebellions, of which there were five counting the War of the Ninepenny Kings which was led by the last Blackfyre, Maelys the Monsterous. 

The change during the tourney at Harrenhal caused the historic rebellion event that triggered Robert’s Rebellion and the subsequent rebellions after Robert death, (the War of the Five Kings) to come from within Westeros rather than rising up from outside the realm in Essos, and to exclude any Blackfyres.

There are multiple historic events that have repeated such as:

An elder female heir getting passed over in favor of a younger male heir. We’ve seen this with both Targaryen claimants and heirs to lordships. 

The kidnapping of a maiden. (Elenei, Lyanna, the inversion was a male - Tyrion - which in turn morphed into a kidnapping where the maiden helped - Sansa)

A forced marriage or marriages with a false bride. (Lady Hornwood, Jeyne, Sansa)

The use of someone’s armor as a fake. (Rhaegar, Renly, Arys)

A lady hiding in disguise/assume new identity. (Ashara, Sansa, Arya, Lady Lenore)

A hidden dragon later becomes a noble living with commoners/small-folk. (Egg/Aegon, Edric Dayne)

A son that kills his father. (Bael’s son does unknowing, Tyrion does deliberately)

Tourneys being used to disguise political motives.

Raiding parties in disguise. (A group dressed to look like Rhaegar and his men, Gregor Clegan’s group that didn’t use any banners, the Brotherhood Without any Banners which morphed into a vigilante group led by Lady Stoneheart.)

Im sure I can come up with more...

[alienarea]

When he's at conventions like this and feels the need to clarify the behavior of time in ASoIaF you realize the story is lost.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

When he's at conventions like this and feels the need to clarify the behavior of time in ASoIaF you realize the story is lost.

 

Otherwise, how was it? Do tell. Did he answer other questions?

[alienarea]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Otherwise, how was it? Do tell. Did he answer other questions?

I wasn't there, redriver was.

My comment was meat to state that GRRM does the same thing for years: attending conventions, being cryptic, not advancing.

I'm afraid he reached a point where he makes more money out of and is more famous for an unfinished series than if he were completing the story.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I wasn't there, redriver was.

My comment was meat to state that GRRM does the same thing for years: attending conventions, being cryptic, not advancing.

I'm afraid he reached a point where he makes more money out of and is more famous for an unfinished series than if he were completing the story.

Oh hahahaha! I mixed you up with Redriver.

[Melifeather]

I'm an optimist with regards to The Winds of Winter. I think it will be published this year. I'm not so optimistic regarding A Dream of Spring though, because it has been eight years since A Dance With Dragons, and each book in the series has taken him a little longer to complete than the one before, so it may be ten years before he completes Spring and finishes the story. By then he'll be 80 years old. Certainly an age that people do surpass, but I fear for his ability to keep all the details straight, and I hope to god someone else doesn't have to step in and finish it!

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh hahahaha! I mixed you up with Redriver.

Red River is one of my favorite movies, no problem :)

[Melifeather]

I’d be interested in hearing the theories and explanations from those that do not believe history is, not only repeating, but moving backwards and “un-doing” itself, to explain what they think is going on. Where is the story heading? What is the purpose and powers of a greenseer? Will Bran be able to “do” anything?

[LynnS]

32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I’d be interested in hearing the theories and explanations from those that do not believe history is, not only repeating, but moving backwards and “un-doing” itself, to explain what they think is going on. Where is the story heading? What is the purpose and powers of a greenseer? Will Bran be able to “do” anything?

Bran's powers, that's a good question. 

- can watch from any weirwood tree

- can see the past, present and future

- can skin change any animal and Hodor

- can open someone else's third eye (Jon)

- can talk to Theon

- can talk to Ghost-Jon

- can see all of Westeros and Essos from great heights

- potentially, he can enter people's dreams

I don't know if history is moving backwards, but I do think events are repeating; and that Bran needs Jon in order to undo past mistakes.  If the world is going to be broken; I suspect this will have something to do with the hinges of the world; the Wall and something else on the fire side.  Dany may be instrumental in breaking that hinge.

So we have the end days where both a hero and a beast will be born from the sea; if you think Martin is making his own version of revelations.  The Red Faith seems to be very close in it's belief that a messiah will come and the faithful will be saved.

What happens when the hinges or the lock on the door is broken?  Is it pandora's box unleashed upon the world?

Who are the beasts and who are the heroes born from the sea?  The Dothraki Sea, Under-the-Sea and the Sailing Sea?  Seems there could be three of each. 

[LynnS]

Where did we leave off with Mel's ruby?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

The wrong-way rangers. Massey and Horpe had ridden south, not north. Whatever they had learned did not concern the Night's Watch, but Jon was curious all the same. "If it would please His Grace." He followed the young squire back across the yard. Ghost padded after them until Jon said, "No. Stay!" Instead the direwolf ran off.

In the King's Tower, Jon was stripped of his weapons and admitted to the royal presence. The solar was hot and crowded. Stannis and his captains were gathered over the map of the north. The wrong-way rangers were amongst them. Sigorn was there as well, the young Magnar of Thenn, clad in a leather hauberk sewn with bronze scales. Rattleshirt sat scratching at the manacle on his wrist with a cracked yellow fingernail. Brown stubble covered his sunken cheeks and receding chin, and strands of dirty hair hung across his eyes. "Here he comes," he said when he saw Jon, "the brave boy who slew Mance Rayder when he was caged and bound." The big square-cut gem that adorned his iron cuff glimmered redly. "Do you like my ruby, Snow? A token o' love from Lady Red."

Jon ignored him and took a knee. "Your Grace," announced the squire Devan, "I've brought Lord Snow."

"I can see that. Lord Commander. You know my knights and captains, I believe."

"I have that honor." He had made it a point to learn all he could of the men around the king. Queen's men, all. It struck Jon as odd that there were no king's men about the king, but that seemed to be the way of it. The king's men had incurred Stannis's ire on Dragonstone if the talk Jon heard was true.

"There is wine. Or water boiled with lemons."

"Thank you, but no."

"As you wish. I have a gift for you, Lord Snow." The king waved a hand at Rattleshirt. "Him."

Lady Melisandre smiled. "You did say you wanted men, Lord Snow. I believe our Lord of Bones still qualifies."

Jon was aghast. "Your Grace, this man cannot be trusted. If I keep him here, someone will slit his throat for him. If I send him ranging, he'll just go back over to the wildlings."

"Not me. I'm done with those bloody fools." Rattleshirt tapped the ruby on his wrist. "Ask your red witch, bastard."

Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue. The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt's wrist was brightening and darkening as well. "So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said. "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow."

Perhaps not, Jon thought, but you do.

"I'll range for you, bastard," Rattleshirt declared. "I'll give you sage counsel or sing you pretty songs, as you prefer. I'll even fight for you. Just don't ask me to wear your cloak."

Mance is certainly flaunting his disguise, such that Mel sees fit to strengthen the glamor.  Jon sees the connection between the two rubies and Mel confirms that she has power over Mance with the ruby, if only to conceal his identity.  Bound blood and soul is an interesting turn of phrase.  I'm not sure what it means.

It's interesting that Jon sees Mel as a liar.  The flames may give true visions but Mel will lie about them.  Indeed she gets it wrong a few times.  It makes me laugh to think that the first lesson she learns is to detect danger to herself.  She repeatedly asks to see Stannis and sees Jon instead.  R'hllors instrument, apparently.  Then we have Aemon telling Jon to read that passage in the Jade Compendium; the one that tells Jon how to make a burning sword.  I think Mel is missing the message.   

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Bran's powers, that's a good question. 

- can watch from any weirwood tree

- can see the past, present and future

- can skin change any animal and Hodor

- can open someone else's third eye (Jon)

- can talk to Theon

- can talk to Ghost-Jon

- can see all of Westeros and Essos from great heights

- potentially, he can enter people's dreams

I don't know if history is moving backwards, but I do think events are repeating; and that Bran needs Jon in order to undo past mistakes.  If the world is going to be broken; I suspect this will have something to do with the hinges of the world; the Wall and something else on the fire side.  Dany may be instrumental in breaking that hinge.

So we have the end days where both a hero and a beast will be born from the sea; if you think Martin is making his own version of revelations.  The Red Faith seems to be very close in it's belief that a messiah will come and the faithful will be saved.

What happens when the hinges or the lock on the door is broken?  Is it pandora's box unleashed upon the world?

Who are the beasts and who are the heroes born from the sea?  The Dothraki Sea, Under-the-Sea and the Sailing Sea?  Seems there could be three of each. 

If all Bran can do is see the past, present, and future, but not be able to do anything about it, it seems like a pointless power.

The same goes for helping Jon open his third eye - which he hasn't demonstrated that he can even do deliberately while awake. And now that he's been stabbed, he's either unconscious from blood loss or dead. We already know he can open his third eye while asleep, but again, what is the point of seeing through Ghost's eyes if he cannot do anything with the gift? He hasn't learned how to control Ghost no more than Bran ever did with Summer.

Regarding Revelations - I do understand that the traditional interpretation of that book is about a coming apocalypse, but Roman history scholars actually know that John wrote that book from Patmos as a coded letter to the various Christian congregations to inform them that they were all witnessing the fulfillment of a prophecy and not about some far-off future. The Christians living in Roman territory at that time were suffering intense persecution, so letters written to the various congregations were often written in code lest they were intercepted.

Bringing up Revelations is actually pretty serendipitous, because we're discussing prophecy! John was convinced that Jesus's prophecies were coming true. When Jesus was brought before Pilate he foretold that the kingdom of God was coming soon, but that terrible suffering must come first. Earthquakes, famine, war, and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Great Temple.  He said, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down."

When John had fled the war in Judea a generation after Jesus was crucified, he witnessed the events that lead to an outbreak of a war in Jerusalem in 66CE when militant Jews attacked Roman soldiers. After four years of fighting, Rome sent 60,000 troops to siege the city and starve its inhabitants. After they defeated the Jews they burned the Great Temple to the ground and left the inner city in ruins. John was shocked and convinced that the prophecy was unfolding. Added to that was another part of prophecy that had also came true. A great mountain that burned with fire and was thrown into the sea: Mount Vesuvius in Italy had erupted just ten years before, which added to John's convictions. So Revelations was actually a propaganda letter written in code, and was intended to inspire hope to Christians that their persecution was soon coming to an end and that God would take vengeance against the Romans.

Revelations was originally written in Greek, which if you are at least a little bit familiar with the Greek alphabet you would know that the first three letters are alpha, beta, and gamma, basically one, two, and three. If you translate the number 666 it spells out "Neron Kasar" or Nero Caesar in Hebrew. Nero is the great beast 666 in Revelations. After his suicide in 68, the four horsemen signaling the apocalypse had arrived. Two years after the Temple was destroyed and Nero committed suicide, four Roman emperors were in turn, crowned and assassinated in relatively short order - in a single year in fact - Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian. These historic events convinced John that Jesus was soon to return and so he was spreading this good news to the congregations in his coded letter called Revelations.

If you're interested in learning more about the symbolism in John's Revelations, you can pickup Elaine Pagels book, Revelations: Visions, Prophecy, & Politics in the book of Revelation.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

If all Bran can do is see the past, present, and future, but not be able to do anything about it, it seems like a pointless power. 

Knowledge is power according to Aemon.  If he can see what was, what is and what may be; how can he change it or break the wheel?  If Bran the Builder is just another verison of the Bran boy; then he helped build the Wall; possibly has something to do with the magic the Wall.  Who is keeping the ward intact in front of the cave of skulls?  Who brought down the hammer of the waters?  We haven't seen Bran's full potential yet.  He may even be able to raise the dead in spite of Bloodraven's warning.  He can't physically move now and he is trapped in the cave of skulls; but he has Jon potentially as his agent.

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The same goes for helping Jon open his third eye - which he hasn't demonstrated that he can even do deliberately while awake. And now that he's been stabbed, he's either unconscious from blood loss or dead. We already know he can open his third eye while asleep, but again, what is the point of seeing through Ghost's eyes if he cannot do anything with the gift? He hasn't learned how to control Ghost no more than Bran ever did with Summer.

Well he has demonstrated that his eye is open when he is awake.  He's not asleep here:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

He was walking beneath the shell of the Lord Commander's Tower, past the spot where Ygritte had died in his arms, when Ghost appeared beside him, his warm breath steaming in the cold. In the moonlight, his red eyes glowed like pools of fire. The taste of hot blood filled Jon's mouth, and he knew that Ghost had killed that night. No, he thought. I am a man, not a wolf. He rubbed his mouth with the back of a gloved hand and spat.

We don't know Jon's full power yet either.  "The Wall is his" and the Wall has power that he can use, if he wishes. According to Mel anyway. If he is the 3EC, then he demonstrated some of his future power when he visited Bran in the coma dream.

As for revelations; I only meant that Martin is using some of those elements very loosely.  The seven headed dragon was metaphor for the papacy and the lands it rule.  The Beast was the ruler empowered by the papacy. 

 

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Knowledge is power according to Aemon.  If he can what was, what is and what may be; how can he change it or break the wheel?  If Bran the Builder is just another verison of the Bran boy; then he helped build the Wall; possibly has something to do with the magic the Wall.  Who is keeping the ward intact in front of the cave of skulls.  Who brought down the hammer of the waters.  We haven't seen Bran's full potential yet.  He may even be able to raise the dead in spite of Bloodraven's warning.  He can't physically move now and he is trapped in the cave of skulls; but he has Jon potentially as his agent.

Well he has demonstrated that his eye is open when he is awake.  He's not asleep here:

We don't know Jon's full power yet either.  "The Wall is his" and the Wall has power that he can use, if he wishes. According to Mel anyway. If he is the 3EC, then he demonstrated some of his future power when he visited Bran in the coma dream.

As for revelations; I only meant that Martin is using some of those elements very loosely.  The seven headed dragon was metaphor for the papacy and the lands it rule.  The Beast was the ruler empowered by the papacy. 

 

We had discussed the difference between the third eye opening, wolf dreams, and the connection between a skinchanger and familiar a page or so back. Tasting the blood of a kill is simply part of the bond and does not require opening the third eye to experience. Part of the skinchanger is in the familiar and part of the familiar is in the skinchanger. Both are aware of emotions, smells, and tastes the other has - maybe even touch - but that is not the same thing as being fully immersed in the animal and seeing what the animal sees or controlling what the animal does, which is what the third eye facilitates.

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

We had discussed the difference between the third eye opening, wolf dreams, and the connection between a skinchanger and familiar a page or so back. Tasting the blood of a kill is simply part of the bond and does not require opening the third eye to experience. Part of the skinchanger is in the familiar and part of the familiar is in the skinchanger. Both are aware of emotions, smells, and tastes the other has - maybe even touch - but that is not the same thing as being fully immersed in the animal and seeing what the animal sees or controlling what the animal does, which is what the third eye facilitates.

Very well.  What is your point though?  Why do you think Jon and Bran are insignificant?  

[Melifeather]

27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Very well.  What is your point though?  Why do you think Jon and Bran are insignificant?  

Lol! I don’t! I think they will have significant roles to play! I agree with you that Bran will be like a god with powers. I guess my questions earlier were directed at those that don’t think there’s a wheel of time or that history isnt repeating itself. I was curious about alternate thoughts regarding what they thought would happen.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

If all Bran can do is see the past, present, and future, but not be able to do anything about it, it seems like a pointless power.

Not necessarily. So much of this book is told through what people see and tell. Revealing what happened to readers through Bran is consistent. Bran warning that something is going to happen in the future depending on what happens now, is hardly pointless, for example the undying warned Danaerys the Dragonlord that some of the visions she saw were of futures that might be, or could have happened, but none were certain 

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Lol! I don’t! I think they will have significant roles to play! I agree with you that Bran will be like a god with powers. I guess my questions earlier were directed at those that don’t think there’s a wheel of time or that history isnt repeating itself. I was curious about alternate thoughts regarding what they thought would happen.

Gotcha.  I don't judge.  I just don't understand.  Sometimes things are over my head or my memory is the pits.  For example: I remember that your post of the wheel up thread made a lot of sense to me and I understood it.  But I can't remember what you said without going back and reading it.  LOL!  I can't hold all the information about the inversion theory in my head either.  All I remember is Myrcella's spots but not the connection.  That might be amusing if it wasn't just a little bit scary. 

[Melifeather]

56 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Not necessarily. So much of this book is told through what people see and tell. Revealing what happened to readers through Bran is consistent. Bran warning that something is going to happen in the future depending on what happens now, is hardly pointless, for example the undying warned Danaerys the Dragonlord that some of the visions she saw were of futures that might be, or could have happened, but none were certain 

Surely there's more to it than helping the reader or warning someone of impending trouble? If something is destined to happen, then warning people or trying to make prophecy come true will still end up being part of the fulfillment. Didn't you once bring up something about a man being killed trying to avoid prophecy outside of a tavern or something?

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Gotcha.  I don't judge.  I just don't understand.  Sometimes things are over my head or my memory is the pits.  For example: I remember that your post of the wheel up thread made a lot of sense to me and I understood it.  But I can't remember what you said without going back and reading it.  LOL!  I can't hold all the information about the inversion theory in my head either.  All I remember is Myrcella's spots but not the connection.  That might be amusing if it wasn't just a little bit scary. 

LOL, the spots! Red spots connect Wenda the White Fawn, Cersei's childhood friend Melara who had freckles, Myrcella's handmaiden who had fake red spots applied to her face, and Arianne's friend Spotted Sylva. The theory being that the "spots" are repeated parallels to the blood spatter Theon saw on Lyanna's dress and act as a type of herald that something bad is about to happen. Cersei also said once of Melara that she was "healthy as a little horse", which seems to be another connection to Lyanna. I also think it may somehow be connected to the "bleeding" star.

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Surely there's more to it than helping the reader or warning someone of impending trouble? If something is destined to happen, then warning people or trying to make prophecy come true will still end up being part of the fulfillment. Didn't you once bring up something about a man being killed trying to avoid prophecy outside of a tavern or something?

Well, I think that Jon will be Bran's instrument as much as he is R'hllor's instrument.   I have this gut feeling that when Bran looks into the heart of darkness, that he is looking into Jon's soul.  Unless he does something to derail that outcome, the cycle will repeat itself.  He has established a connection to Ghost-Jon; so I think Bran will still be able to communicate with Jon, even if he is trapped in Ghost's body for a time.  Bran may even be instrumental in getting Jon back into his body if Coldhands is anything to go by.  Since we are dealing with slippery time where Bran is concerned; Coldhands might well be Bran's monster.  In other words resurrected by future Bran.  Highly speculative on my part and I know how much people hate this idea.

Who knows what shadow beasts Melisandre will conjure up from the Night Fort.  Who will be the 999 Lord Commander? If your inversion theory holds; then that should be 666th LC. LOL.  Stannis?   

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well, I think that Jon will be Bran's instrument as much as he is R'hllor's instrument.   I have this gut feeling that when Bran looks into the heart of darkness, that he is looking into Jon's soul.  Unless he does something to derail that outcome, the cycle will repeat itself.  He has established a connection to Ghost-Jon; so I think Bran will still be able to communicate with Jon, even if he is trapped in Ghost's body for a time.  Bran may even be instrumental in getting Jon back into his body if Coldhands is anything to go by.  Since we are dealing with slippery time where Bran is concerned; Coldhands might well be Bran's monster.  In other words resurrected by future Bran.  Highly speculative on my part and I know how much people hate this idea.

Who knows what shadow beasts Melisandre will conjure up from the Night Fort.  Who will be the 999 Lord Commander? If your inversion theory holds; then that should be 666th LC. LOL.  Stannis?   

That's funny about Stannis, but wouldn't he have to become Lord Commander of the Watch first?

I like the parallel you've drawn between 999 as being 666 upside down. Not only is 666 the "mark of the beast", Patchface said the north is upside down and under water! As I've shared earlier, 666 numerically translates to “Nero" in Greek, and it's important to note that this "monster" was simply a human. I recall a Bugs Bunny cartoon depicting Nero famously "fiddling" while Rome burned. "Fiddled" has the double meaning of playing music while his people suffered, and that he was an ineffectual leader - too involved with indulgent luxuries. "Fiddled" also makes me think of "diddled", which is sexual slang for inappropriately touching a minor child. "Fiddled" may have also led to the colloquial phrase "fiddle-fucked around", which is quite apropos for Nero!

So back to the 999 Lord Commander...will he be a monster? I think you're right that 999 is just an upside down 666 and points to a beast - like Nero, but this beast won't fiddle-fuck around! I think this is also confirmation that Coldhands was the famous Nights King of old, and if history is being "un-done", then the Nights King reborn will be a monster too. The reversal of history being that he will not be defeated. I predict that after Jon becomes the monster he'll use his undead body to take back Winterfell.