Heresy 226 of wolves, dragons and other familiars

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

That's funny about Stannis, but wouldn't he have to become Lord Commander of the Watch first?

I like the parallel you've drawn between 999 as being 666 upside down. Not only is 666 the "mark of the beast", the north is upside down and under water! As I've shared earlier, 666 numerically spells out "Nero" in Greek, and it's important to note that this "monster" was simply a human. I recall a Bugs Bunny cartoon depicting Nero famously "fiddling" while Rome burned. "Fiddled" has the double meaning of playing music while his people suffered, and that he was an ineffectual leader - too involved with indulgent luxuries. "Fiddled" also makes me think of "diddled", which is sexual slang for inappropriately touching a minor child. "Fiddled" may have also led to the colloquial phrase "fiddle-fucked around", which is quite apropos for Nero!

So back to the 999 Lord Commander...will he be a monster? I think you're right that 999 is just an upside down 666 and points to a beast - like Nero, but this beast won't fiddle-fuck around! I think this is also confirmation that Coldhands was the famous Nights King of old, and if history is being "un-done", then the Nights King reborn will be a monster too. The reversal of history being that he will not be defeated. I predict that after Jon becomes the monster he'll use his undead body to take back Winterfell.

Who knows how sorcery will backfire, but I can see Stannis taking over the Watch and the Wall with nobody to stand in his way.  Especially since the NW will have assassinated their LC, an act of treason, I'm sure.  A few might be thrown into Mel's fires.  He could be the new Night King, giving his seed and his soul to Mel, sacrificing to her god.  That would be an inversion of the fire and ice business.   I can't see the place being in anything other than a state of chaos. If Borroq is right, the WWs will have shown up as well.

What I don't have any sense of if Arya's role in the trinity with Jon and Bran.  The similarities between the appearance of the kindly old man (the skull with worm crawling out his eye) and Bloodraven are close enough to wonder about.  If BR is about to expire, will Bran be involved in directing Arya in any way?  Or is she just a loose canon?  I wonder if she will be an operative from Bran is Essos.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Surely there's more to it than helping the reader or warning someone of impending trouble? If something is destined to happen, then warning people or trying to make prophecy come true will still end up being part of the fulfillment. Didn't you once bring up something about a man being killed trying to avoid prophecy outside of a tavern or something?

That was GRRM, although he [or more likely his translator - it was the Spanish interview] got some of the detail wrong. Its actually quite a well-known story that appears in Shakespeare about a guy who was warned by a woods witch to avoid castles - which he did, only to get hacked to death outside the Castle Inn in St. Albans.

As to helping the reader, I wouldn't underestimate it. GRRM does it a lot, its the way he writes through POVs

But with that, to bed. Good night all.

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Who knows how sorcery will backfire, but I can see Stannis taking over the Watch and the Wall with nobody to stand in his way.  Especially since the NW will have assassinated their LC, an act of treason, I'm sure.  A few might be thrown into Mel's fires.  He could be the new Night King, giving his seed and his soul to Mel, sacrificing to her god.  That would be an inversion of the fire and ice business.   I can't see the place being in anything other than a state of chaos. If Borroq is right, the WWs will have shown up as well.

What I don't have any sense of if Arya's role in the trinity with Jon and Bran.  The similarities between the appearance of the kindly old man (the skull with worm crawling out his eye) and Bloodraven are close enough to wonder about.  If BR is about to expire, will Bran be involved in directing Arya in any way?  Or is she just a loose canon?  I wonder if she will be an operative from Bran is Essos.

Stannis has left the Wall and is currently on the other side of a lake or pond outside of Winterfell - a long way from the Wall, and the heavy blizzard would prevent him from returning anytime soon. He's got to win against Ramsay or die trying. Melisandre stayed at Castle Black, while Selyce took her men and left for the Nightfort. 

Arya is a parallel of Lyanna. She's symbolically dead, while the Kindly Man is a compelling parallel to Howland Reed. I think the connection to Bloodraven might be a hint that Howland is a greenseer too.

Here's a link to some parallels I had noted between the Kindly Man and Howland.

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Stannis has left the Wall and is currently on the other side of a lake or pond outside of Winterfell - a long way from the Wall, and the heavy blizzard would prevent him from returning anytime soon. He's got to win against Ramsay or die trying. Melisandre stayed at Castle Black, while Selyce took her men and left for the Nightfort. 

Arya is a parallel of Lyanna. She's symbolically dead, while the Kindly Man is a compelling parallel to Howland Reed. I think the connection to Bloodraven might be a hint that Howland is a greenseer too.

Yes, there is that and the question of whether he will prevail over Ramsey or not.  Mel does seem a lot less interested in Stannis these days.  So perhaps Tormund will take over, the wildlings at least.  The immediate concern would be the arrival of the WWs.  Even Mel tells Jon she felt the cold when talking about his assassins.  That's striking for someone who doesn't normally feel the cold.  Surprising that she can experience the cold from a vision.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

"I know their names."

"Do not be so certain." The ruby at Melisandre's throat gleamed red. "It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold."

I don't know what to make of Howland.  My sense is that he was Eddard's batman throughout the war, but more significantly ensured that Ned wasn't killed by Arthur.  Ned must live! lol to produce the necessary offspring.  And Jon must be born as well.

I'm guessing that if Howland makes an appearance in TWOW it won't be at the Isle of the Gods.  I think he's already been seeded as a character incognito into the story.  I think what we learn about Lyanna will come from Meera who has already said this is a sad story for another time.  Bran may very well observe the events at the tourney and the ToJ through his ability to look into the past.

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, there is that and the question of whether he will prevail over Ramsey or not.  Mel does seem a lot less interested in Stannis these days.  So perhaps Tormund will take over, the wildlings at least.  The immediate concern would be the arrival of the WWs.  Even Mel tells Jon she felt the cold when talking about his assassins.  That's striking for someone who doesn't normally feel the cold.  Surprising that she can experience the cold from a vision.

I don't know what to make of Howland.  My sense is that he was Eddard's batman throughout the war, but more significantly ensured that Ned wasn't killed by Arthur.  Ned must live! lol to produce the necessary offspring.  And Jon must be born as well.

I'm guessing that if Howland makes an appearance in TWOW it won't be at the Isle of the Gods.  I think he's already been seeded as a character incognito into the story.  I think what we learn about Lyanna will come from Meera who has already said this is a sad story for another time.  Bran may very well observe the events at the tourney and the ToJ through his ability to look into the past.

I do like the theory that Howland is the High Sparrow. It could make an interesting inversion to a greenseer. 

What nags at me the most is how Melisandre described Jon's many "enemies". She said they would smile to his face and sharpen their knives behind his back. Bowen Marsh never hid his dislike for Jon, so he cannot be one of the "smiling enemies" Melisandre saw. It's one of the clues that I think point towards the wildlings as being Jon's hidden and smiling enemy.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I do like the theory that Howland is the High Sparrow. It could make an interesting inversion to a greenseer. 

What nags at me the most is how Melisandre described Jon's many "enemies". She said they would smile to his face and sharpen their knives behind his back. Bowen Marsh never hid his dislike for Jon, so he cannot be one of the "smiling enemies" Melisandre saw. It's one of the clues that I think point towards the wildlings as being Jon's hidden and smiling enemy.

And so we come back to Mel's ruby and what influence she can exert over people with it.

[corbon]

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I’d be interested in hearing the theories and explanations from those that do not believe history is, not only repeating, but moving backwards and “un-doing” itself, to explain what they think is going on.

Well, you asked, but I bet most could predict 90% of what I'll write.

History repeats, sure.
People are people. They make the same mistakes, or choices, as others did in the past because they have the same general motivations and rarely have or take the opportunity to learn from the past and make better choices.
There are a limited number of 'motifs' , at least if one generalises them enough so that vague similarities become repeats. So some 'motifs' repeat as well.
Neither of these mean anything significant to the story, IMO. At least not generally.

What is going on? I'm waiting to find out to a certain extent. A bunch of people are doing what seems best to them, creating interesting conflict for us to read about. Probably its leading up to a second war for the Dawn, though I think this will happen rather organically from people doing what they think best at the time. I think most of the prophecy and history and backstory will remain vaguely relevant, if you twist things enough to suit, but I don't think its 'driving' anything - I think Mel and Benerro, who are the only people consciously trying to 'drive' things, have mislead themselves and their religion has things twisted around enough that though they may contribute to the end, their 'driving' is in the wrong direction.
I think Dany is not a conscious 'driver' despite her talk about breaking the wheel etc. I think that her story is organic for her. Her breaking the wheel thing has come out of compassion and empathy for the powerless, ie organically from her heart, not from a driving to personally fulfill or achieve anything. 
I think GRRM does a great job of seeding all these extras into his story, that are interesting and create awesome interconnections for those looking in the right places. But I don't think these things are drivers of the story, at least not mostly. I think they are artifacts of humanity - kind of a 6 degrees of separation thing - there is a connection from any one thing to any other thing if you decide to make one.

But while I think more or less the opposite of your ideas is 'real', its still interesting to hear them and think on them.
I doubt many people could sya the same in reverse, which is point to you I guess. 

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Where is the story heading?

To a bittersweet conclusion. Probably to do with Jon and Dany and Bran and Arya and Tyrion. 

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

What is the purpose and powers of a greenseer?

They are largely organic background, IMO, though Bran's abilities may play a key part somehow - probably in key knowedge or support of someone else's actions I suspect, more than his own.
If the greenseers were all-powerful, their culture wouldn't be on the cusp on total death.

8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Will Bran be able to “do” anything?

He already can. I don;t think he'll be able to 'do' super powerful stuff, but I think he will 'do' something critical that enables another character. 
I could be wrong. But that's what I think so far.

We only seem to be about 70% (5/7) through the story....

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

When John had fled the war in Judea a generation after Jesus was crucified, he witnessed the events that lead to an outbreak of a war in Jerusalem in 66CE when militant Jews attacked Roman soldiers. After four years of fighting, Rome sent 60,000 troops to siege the city and starve its inhabitants. After they defeated the Jews they burned the Great Temple to the ground and left the inner city in ruins. John was shocked and convinced that the prophecy was unfolding. Added to that was another part of prophecy that had also came true. A great mountain that burned with fire and was thrown into the sea: Mount Vesuvius in Italy had erupted just ten years before, which added to John's convictions. So Revelations was actually a propaganda letter written in code, and was intended to inspire hope to Christians that their persecution was soon coming to an end and that God would take vengeance against the Romans.

If GRRM has drawn inspiration from Roman history, Nero, and Revelations for the Nights King, then Kings Landing may end up with a fate similar to Jerusalem. The Faith Militant could be a parallel to the militant Jews and the 60,000 Roman soldiers that laid siege to the city might be a collective force mustered from Houses of the realm,  or maybe even an army of the dead that descended all the way down from the north, killing all human life in Kings Landing, and burn the great “temple” which could be the Red Keep, Iron Throne, or the Sept of Baelor or all three.

[Melifeather]

On second thought - I forgot 666 got turned upside down. The messianic savior from the east is not coming! “Mount Vesuvius” will rain burning ice and destroy “Pompeii”. I wonder who the four horsemen are? Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, then Cersei? Will Caesar, I mean, Cersei “fiddle” while Rome burns? Then the militant “Jews” will defeat the “Romans”, and “salvation” will come from the second coming of the beast. 

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

... Even Mel tells Jon she felt the cold when talking about his assassins.  That's striking for someone who doesn't normally feel the cold.  Surprising that she can experience the cold from a vision.

 

It depends how literally you take that statement. It may be a bit like smelling water and of course smelling rain, and smelling cold. I'm not necessarily saying that she can smell something through a vision, but rather making the point that senses are complex things even among us humans and that she may be able to "see" cold.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, corbon said:

Well, you asked, but I bet most could predict 90% of what I'll write.

History repeats, sure.
People are people. They make the same mistakes, or choices, as others did in the past because they have the same general motivations and rarely have or take the opportunity to learn from the past and make better choices.
There are a limited number of 'motifs' , at least if one generalises them enough so that vague similarities become repeats. So some 'motifs' repeat as well.
Neither of these mean anything significant to the story, IMO. At least not generally.

What is going on? I'm waiting to find out to a certain extent. A bunch of people are doing what seems best to them, creating interesting conflict for us to read about. Probably its leading up to a second war for the Dawn, though I think this will happen rather organically from people doing what they think best at the time. I think most of the prophecy and history and backstory will remain vaguely relevant, if you twist things enough to suit, but I don't think its 'driving' anything - I think Mel and Benerro, who are the only people consciously trying to 'drive' things, have mislead themselves and their religion has things twisted around enough that though they may contribute to the end, their 'driving' is in the wrong direction.
I think Dany is not a conscious 'driver' despite her talk about breaking the wheel etc. I think that her story is organic for her. Her breaking the wheel thing has come out of compassion and empathy for the powerless, ie organically from her heart, not from a driving to personally fulfill or achieve anything. 
I think GRRM does a great job of seeding all these extras into his story, that are interesting and create awesome interconnections for those looking in the right places. But I don't think these things are drivers of the story, at least not mostly. I think they are artifacts of humanity - kind of a 6 degrees of separation thing - there is a connection from any one thing to any other thing if you decide to make one...

 

I think that I'd agree with all of this. Sure GRRM references the Wheel of Time series, just as he references Lord of the Rings but this isn't his take on either of those. One of the themes we've invested a lot of time on in Heresy over the years is identifying some of the very many influences on his work, ranging from the subtle such as the Mabinogion, to the outright plagiarist, such as Conrad's Heart of Darkness, and to real life events such as the Cold War and the fall of the Berlin Wall, but all of them are seeded into a story which is none of them. 

As to what's going on? Well that's what's keeping us all going, but on balance I think that GRRM is very conscious that A Song of Ice and Fire is what he is going to be remembered for and that he is not only concerned about writing his own original work, but about properly developing the themes and ideas from his own, earlier work; not only The Ice Dragon of course but other work such as A Song for Lya

[LynnS]

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

"I'll be sure to read it."

Maester Aemon wiped his nose. "Knowledge is a weapon, Jon. Arm yourself well before you ride forth to battle."

Terrible knowledge:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

 

[Melifeather]

Pompeii got covered in ash when Mount Vesuvius erupted. Winterfell is currently being blanketed by snow - the Wall is deteriorating. How much snow will a 700 foot wall of ice create? Will Winterfell be completely buried?

[redriver]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Pompeii got covered in ash when Mount Vesuvius erupted. Winterfell is currently being blanketed by snow - the Wall is deteriorating. How much snow will a 700 foot wall of ice create? Will Winterfell be completely buried?

Where did you access the notion that the Wall is deteriorating?

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, redriver said:

Where did you access the notion that the Wall is deteriorating?

Magic and wards are what holds the 700 feet of ice together. There's a threadbare rug in the House of the Undying that Daenerys noted which I believe is meant to represent the condition of the wards holding the spells on the Wall together. We know that magic has been leaking out of the Wall since the beginning of A Game of Thrones - the proof is the return of white walkers and dragons. There's a massive blizzard that has encompassed the area from the Wall down to Winterfell. I'm theorizing that this blizzard is actually the Wall disintegrating and blowing in the wind like the mountain that Mirri told Daenerys about.

[redriver]

19 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Magic and wards are what holds the 700 feet of ice together. There's a threadbare rug in the House of the Undying that Daenerys noted which I believe is meant to represent the condition of the wards holding the spells on the Wall together. We know that magic has been leaking out of the Wall since the beginning of A Game of Thrones - the proof is the return of white walkers and dragons. There's a massive blizzard that has encompassed the area from the Wall down to Winterfell. I'm theorizing that this blizzard is actually the Wall disintegrating and blowing in the wind like the mountain that Mirri told Daenerys about.

Well colour me....

...somewhat unconvinced.

You've gone from a rug to a Pompeii like burial of Winterfell.Knight's move thinking,but only if the knights have sprouted wings and gone insane.

I suppose if Winterfell gets completely buried in snow the survivors will have to dig themselves out and bash each other on the head in a bid for supremacy?

 

[Melifeather]

11 minutes ago, redriver said:

Well colour me....

...somewhat unconvinced.

You've gone from a rug to a Pompeii like burial of Winterfell.Knight's move thinking,but only if the knights have sprouted wings and gone insane.

I suppose if Winterfell gets completely buried in snow the survivors will have to dig themselves out and bash each other on the head in a bid for supremacy?

 

There are also multiple references to a " rusted and squeaky iron hinge". The Wall is one of the great hinges of the world, and iron is a substance known for its use to ward against magic. The Winterfell crypts have iron bars and iron swords are lain across the crypts to keep the spirits in. Melisandre calls the Wall a hinge, because a hinge holds a door - basically the Wall is a door to magic that has been warded shut. The use of rusted and squeaky to describe the hinge indicates that the wards are very old. I realize that symbolism and metaphors aren't some people's cup of tea, but it's there for those that do recognize it and catch the drift (har).

[redriver]

No iron bars in the WF crypts as far as I recall,but open to correction.

Rusty and squeaky hinges refer to Eurons transgressions in Aeron's POVs,never to the Wall.Again,open to correction.

There is nothing in text that 'rusted and squeaky' refers to the Wall in either Mel's or Aeron's accounts.

By the way,you're knight's move thinking has progressed apace.Now they time travel too.

Congrats on being the self appointed champion of symbolism and metaphor.The rest of of us can only dream of aspiring to your lofty heights.

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, redriver said:

No iron bars in the WF crypts as far as I recall,but open to correction.

Rusty and squeaky hinges refer to Eurons transgressions in Aeron's POVs,never to the Wall.Again,open to correction.

There is nothing in text that 'rusted and squeaky' refers to the Wall in either Mel's or Aeron's accounts.

By the way,you're knight's move thinking has progressed apace.Now they time travel too.

Congrats on being the self appointed champion of symbolism and metaphor.The rest of of us can only dream of aspiring to your lofty heights.

Wow. I don't claim to be right. It's just a theory. I didn't mean to cause offense.

 

[redriver]

No offense caused.I'm just attacking your theory because I think it's wrong.

Not you,your theory.