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RSasoiaf

So what happened to the Reeds?

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Posted (edited)

This is one of the big plot holes left by the series. 

Howland Reed is absolutely absent. He almost seems like non existent in the series. Besides the tower of joy he seems to never again show up in the story. I guess he would at least show during the Long Night, if not for the battle of the bastards. Howland should be a very strong Stark loyalist and should at least try something like he did before by sending his kids to support Bran. Which….by the way, what was the deal with Meera just saying bye and going away? Does she not understand what is at stake? She knows about the White Walkers and she knows the importance of the fight. She has experience up north and is an established warrior. Why would she not want to stay and fight? She would at least have a place as good as Lyana Mormont. Meera is also the heir to Howland as far as we know so she should have some place at any northern council. 

Where are they? I understand Howland may well be Martin´s Tom Bombadil and it may be logical to cut him out from the series but Meera should have some ending. Either dying a sad death against the White Walkers or being there at the end supporting either Bran or Sansa. 

Why just leave? 

Unless Bran did tell her his whole plan and she knows that the North will win and Bran will be king. That´s pretty much what could justify her just going home and be done with it. If that was the solution, would have been nice to have some last stand off between her and Bran where they would reveal Bran had told her what was to happen. 

Edited by RSasoiaf

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Howland Reed as Martin's Tom Bombadil? Boy are  you crazy? LOL

No, Howland Reed is a major player simply for the fact that he is an eyewitness of Jon's birth, Lyanna's death and the fallout at Starfall. He is also the custodian of Robb Stark's will and Ned Stark's body. Both are reported to have been lost in the Neck but let's be real.... He knowingly sent Jojen and Meera to Bran and they became his greatest allies. With Jojen for a son, he might even be a greenseer himself.

I mean, the possibilities are endless.

He has the potential to be a major supporting character in Sansa, Bran and Jon's arcs moving forward. Maybe even Brienne's as well.

This is a major plot hole in the TV show and will cause a lot of different changes in the books.

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It seems as though Ned and Jojen had a falling out.  As far as we know when they came back from the war they never really spoke again.  Although Ned seems to have a disturbing lack of direct contact with many of his vassal lords.

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16 hours ago, argonak said:

It seems as though Ned and Jojen had a falling out.  As far as we know when they came back from the war they never really spoke again.  Although Ned seems to have a disturbing lack of direct contact with many of his vassal lords.

I am guessing you meant Ned and Howland had a falling out?  Howland Reed was there w/ Ned, Jojen is Howland's son. 

Anyways, there are no hints of any falling out - if Ned and Howland had a falling out, why did Howland send Meera & Jojen to help Bran? I think the OP is on to something here that this is just a plot line that the series left completely unresolved. There will be something to Howland Reed (and the Reeds in general) in the books, although its hard to say what it is. 

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14 minutes ago, WeDoNotKneel_HailMance said:

I am guessing you meant Ned and Howland had a falling out?  Howland Reed was there w/ Ned, Jojen is Howland's son. 

Anyways, there are no hints of any falling out - if Ned and Howland had a falling out, why did Howland send Meera & Jojen to help Bran? I think the OP is on to something here that this is just a plot line that the series left completely unresolved. There will be something to Howland Reed (and the Reeds in general) in the books, although its hard to say what it is. 

Oops, yeah, got my brain crossed.

Well, I mean, I try to see my friends at least more often than once every 15 years.  Especially when they work for me directly and are responsible for maintaining peace in my realm.  We know Ned didn't go see Robert again for a decade because of their falling out during the war's end.

Its not like there's anything critical going on in the swamps that one of Ned's best friends and war buddies couldn't swing by for a feast once a year.

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From the show I wished they highlighted the disgust Meera felt due to the new and non-improved Bran, in which I wish with the lost of Jojen meaning nothing to him as well, would destroy the Howlands loyalty to house Stark? Just wishful thinking but the plot holes are too abundant to wrap ones head around.

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On 8/23/2019 at 6:20 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Howland Reed as Martin's Tom Bombadil? Boy are  you crazy? LOL

No, Howland Reed is a major player simply for the fact that he is an eyewitness of Jon's birth, Lyanna's death and the fallout at Starfall. He is also the custodian of Robb Stark's will and Ned Stark's body. Both are reported to have been lost in the Neck but let's be real.... He knowingly sent Jojen and Meera to Bran and they became his greatest allies. With Jojen for a son, he might even be a greenseer himself.

I mean, the possibilities are endless.

He has the potential to be a major supporting character in Sansa, Bran and Jon's arcs moving forward. Maybe even Brienne's as well.

This is a major plot hole in the TV show and will cause a lot of different changes in the books.

I would not think the idea of Howland as a figure that has too much knowledge to show up is so far away from the concept of Bombadil being someone with too much power to have a role in the events. 

This is where and why I draw similarities :)

I understand its yet to be seen in the books if Howland will show up. But I kind of get the feeling he may well be Martin´s Bombadil. Like….he could solve a lot of problems and questions if he would show up and speak, therefore he will never do it. 

But I will grant you that this status can well change in the remaining books. 

Lets not get further into this because its really a book topic. And even one which is not yet fully resolved. Reason why I used "may well be" instead of "sure is". I was kind of being playful about it. 

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On 8/29/2019 at 2:48 AM, terloublag said:

From the show I wished they highlighted the disgust Meera felt due to the new and non-improved Bran, in which I wish with the lost of Jojen meaning nothing to him as well, would destroy the Howlands loyalty to house Stark? Just wishful thinking but the plot holes are too abundant to wrap ones head around.

Yes, some more resolution…..

I have to say I would have killed her before they reached back to the wall. But given that the producers decided to keep her alive, she should be around for the Battle of Winterfell. Or they could have someone asking where was she and some excuse being given. Its like she vanished and that´s it. There would be no reason for her not to be loyal to House Stark anymore. She should be loyal to either Jon or Sansa. And given she was at Winterfell, she should fight. 

I also think its pretty obvious they forgot to discuss her ending with Martin :D And they also had no idea and did not care what to do with her. So they ditched her at the first possible chance (cost savings?). 

Another better way of doing it would have been her going away to get reinforcements. And then someone just saying that they were not going to arrive in time. It would at least explain she was still loyal to house Stark. They could likely also say, before sending Jon with the army to KL, that the Meera would arrive soon and be a garrison for Winterfell. In this way they could tie her loose end without having to pay the actress anymore (which seems to have been among their practical concerns). 

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2 minutes ago, RSasoiaf said:

Yes, some more resolution…..

I have to say I would have killed her before they reached back to the wall. But given that the producers decided to keep her alive, she should be around for the Battle of Winterfell. Or they could have someone asking where was she and some excuse being given. Its like she vanished and that´s it. There would be no reason for her not to be loyal to House Stark anymore. She should be loyal to either Jon or Sansa. And given she was at Winterfell, she should fight. 

I also think its pretty obvious they forgot to discuss her ending with Martin :D And they also had no idea and did not care what to do with her. So they ditched her at the first possible chance (cost savings?). 

Another better way of doing it would have been her going away to get reinforcements. And then someone just saying that they were not going to arrive in time. It would at least explain she was still loyal to house Stark. They could likely also say, before sending Jon with the army to KL, that the Meera would arrive soon and be a garrison for Winterfell. In this way they could tie her loose end without having to pay the actress anymore (which seems to have been among their practical concerns). 

A lot of characters seemed like they had no purpose, particularly Jon in the final season, Meera, Arya after killing the Night King, Bran in Season 7, the whole Golden Company.

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36 minutes ago, RSasoiaf said:

Yes, some more resolution…..

I have to say I would have killed her before they reached back to the wall. But given that the producers decided to keep her alive, she should be around for the Battle of Winterfell. Or they could have someone asking where was she and some excuse being given. Its like she vanished and that´s it. There would be no reason for her not to be loyal to House Stark anymore. She should be loyal to either Jon or Sansa. And given she was at Winterfell, she should fight. 

I also think its pretty obvious they forgot to discuss her ending with Martin :D And they also had no idea and did not care what to do with her. So they ditched her at the first possible chance (cost savings?). 

Another better way of doing it would have been her going away to get reinforcements. And then someone just saying that they were not going to arrive in time. It would at least explain she was still loyal to house Stark. They could likely also say, before sending Jon with the army to KL, that the Meera would arrive soon and be a garrison for Winterfell. In this way they could tie her loose end without having to pay the actress anymore (which seems to have been among their practical concerns). 

My best guess is that they just saved her to have that falling out moment with Bran to really drive home that Bran was dead...which strikes me as a bit unfortunate since they just decided to make "Bran" King in the end, a moment which would have meant a lot more if it was really Bran and not the 3ER.  Once Meera fulfilled that job, there was no further need for her.  Which I guess makes sense to me, since so many other characters were short-changed by the rushed S8 that cutting down side characters like Meera was necessary.

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8 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

My best guess is that they just saved her to have that falling out moment with Bran to really drive home that Bran was dead...which strikes me as a bit unfortunate since they just decided to make "Bran" King in the end, a moment which would have meant a lot more if it was really Bran and not the 3ER.  Once Meera fulfilled that job, there was no further need for her.  Which I guess makes sense to me, since so many other characters were short-changed by the rushed S8 that cutting down side characters like Meera was necessary.

I'm surprised that it felt so rushed, considering that they had two years to work out plot lines, write out loose ends, you name it.

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5 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

My best guess is that they just saved her to have that falling out moment with Bran to really drive home that Bran was dead...which strikes me as a bit unfortunate since they just decided to make "Bran" King in the end, a moment which would have meant a lot more if it was really Bran and not the 3ER.  Once Meera fulfilled that job, there was no further need for her.  Which I guess makes sense to me, since so many other characters were short-changed by the rushed S8 that cutting down side characters like Meera was necessary.

Possible! 

They could still write a more establishing farewell:

M: What should I do now? What was this all for?

B: You will go home, you are the heir of your house. You will work to help reorganize the North. There will be a need for supplies and reinforcements. 

M: And that´s it? 

B: Yes, that´s it. There is nothing left for you to do here. Just go and do your duties as you have done with me. 

M: Bran…...

B: I am not Bran anymore. We have nothing else to discuss. 

See….they would accomplish the same target but give a resolution and mission for Meera. Also an explanation why she would not show up anymore. 

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4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm surprised that it felt so rushed, considering that they had two years to work out plot lines, write out loose ends, you name it.

GRRM's had 10 years, and we appear not really close to getting the 6th book, let alone a satisfying finale :D.  With that in mind, 2 years does not seem that long.  Having said that, the writers should have realized early on that only 6 episodes was not enough to tell the story they wanted to tell.  

4 hours ago, RSasoiaf said:

Possible! 

They could still write a more establishing farewell:

M: What should I do now? What was this all for?

B: You will go home, you are the heir of your house. You will work to help reorganize the North. There will be a need for supplies and reinforcements. 

M: And that´s it? 

B: Yes, that´s it. There is nothing left for you to do here. Just go and do your duties as you have done with me. 

M: Bran…...

B: I am not Bran anymore. We have nothing else to discuss. 

See….they would accomplish the same target but give a resolution and mission for Meera. Also an explanation why she would not show up anymore. 

I don't know how much would really be explained by this, considering there was an apocalyptic event taking place throughout the North with the Others coming.  You'd think that might compel Meera and Howland to show up at Winterfell to help :dunno:,, rather than focusing on rebuilding the North which was about to be destroyed.

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1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

GRRM's had 10 years, and we appear not really close to getting the 6th book, let alone a satisfying finale :D.  With that in mind, 2 years does not seem that long.  Having said that, the writers should have realized early on that only 6 episodes was not enough to tell the story they wanted to tell.  

I don't know how much would really be explained by this, considering there was an apocalyptic event taking place throughout the North with the Others coming.  You'd think that might compel Meera and Howland to show up at Winterfell to help :dunno:,, rather than focusing on rebuilding the North which was about to be destroyed.

:D

I know lol 

From the start I stated my opinion that they should have been there for the battle of Winterfell. 

But if the producers had cost constraints or any issues with the actress…..my proposal at least would give her a reason for staying away.

As for explanation...well, you could go with being loyal. This is the reason why I had the care to include "you will do your duties". I was working under a reasonable expectation that she would feel compelled to obey Bran. And if Bran, who is a God now, ordered her to go do something practical elsewhere, one could at least take it that she would follow. 

Besides, someone would need to reorganize the North. I know they are getting ready for the End of the World. But they are also getting ready to avoid it and hope to do so at Winterfell. So, no doubt someone should start rebuilding the North. Also, considering the amount of people they have at Winterfell, even if they expect great losses, they will need supplies and someone needs to go get that. Meera is a plausible option. Heir to a Northern house, she would be respected if she showed up under orders from Bran Stark. 

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On 9/11/2019 at 9:54 AM, RSasoiaf said:

Possible! 

They could still write a more establishing farewell:

M: What should I do now? What was this all for?

B: You will go home, you are the heir of your house. You will work to help reorganize the North. There will be a need for supplies and reinforcements. 

M: And that´s it? 

B: Yes, that´s it. There is nothing left for you to do here. Just go and do your duties as you have done with me. 

M: Bran…...

B: I am not Bran anymore. We have nothing else to discuss. 

See….they would accomplish the same target but give a resolution and mission for Meera. Also an explanation why she would not show up anymore. 

Only thing that makes me think alliances can be tested is due to Meera mentioning the lost of Jojen, Hodor and Summer. For Bran to play it off like their lives purpose was to serve an ungrateful young Stark and their deaths are just an 'oh well' by him would fester some resentment or questioning of loyalties at least. Holland Reed was loyal and knew Ned Stark and it's not clear if he had a relationship with the Stark children. He's the only person other than Ned who didn't spill to the world Jon's true parentage unlike the oath breaking Sansa and the we don't need allies Arya Stark.The new young Starks don't share the same noble compassion of their father and I don't know if Holland won't hold mix feelings with the lost of Jojen and however it's revealed to him by Meera.

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15 hours ago, terloublag said:

Only thing that makes me think alliances can be tested is due to Meera mentioning the lost of Jojen, Hodor and Summer. For Bran to play it off like their lives purpose was to serve an ungrateful young Stark and their deaths are just an 'oh well' by him would fester some resentment or questioning of loyalties at least. Holland Reed was loyal and knew Ned Stark and it's not clear if he had a relationship with the Stark children. He's the only person other than Ned who didn't spill to the world Jon's true parentage unlike the oath breaking Sansa and the we don't need allies Arya Stark.The new young Starks don't share the same noble compassion of their father and I don't know if Holland won't hold mix feelings with the lost of Jojen and however it's revealed to him by Meera.

I can follow what you say.

To me, I would still have no issues believing the Reeds would remain loyal to the Starks. Even if for a lack of better options. Because, lets face it, they would not take the Bolton´s side. And after Jon and Sansa reinstate the Starks, there is really none else the Reed´s could follow.

So...like it or not, they strike me as the kind of people who would take their duties seriously. And unless another house would replace the Starks, they would support the North and the Starks as ordered and within their possibilities.

I think its well set up in the show that Jojen had some idea he was going to give his life for Bran. Even Meera was very much ready to do the same if it came to that. They were not 21st century kids. They knew very well they could sacrífice their lives in the war to come. Meera being trained as a warrior and Jojen being a seer, they both were well aware how dark things could get.

Now, the show did not introduce the relation between Howlland and Lyanna Stark. But if we are to believe they still had the same connection as in the books, Howlland should be very loyal to Jon / Aegon. If no other reason, just him being Lyanna´s child would be very big for Howlland Reed.

Edited by RSasoiaf

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