Prediction: Littlefinger is trying (or will try) to kill Tyrion.

[argonak]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

He's been trying to get rid of Tyrion since the beginning of the story:

•  Fingered him (Har!) for the assassination attempt on Bran
• Intended to kill him on the Kings Road through his agent, Bronn
• Tried to kill him on the Blackwater through his agent, Mandon Moore
• Tried to kill him at Joffrey's wedding by poisoning his pie

If Tyrion ever makes it back to Westeros, LF will try to kill him again.

 

 

Wait what's this about Bronn working for Littlefinger?  Where is that from?  And the Pie thing?  And wasn't Mandon Moore working for Cersei?

[miyuki]

2 hours ago, argonak said:

And wasn't Mandon Moore working for Cersei?

I also always thought that.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, argonak said:

And wasn't Mandon Moore working for Cersei?

Who really knows? Cersei has never admitted it, nor even thought about it during her POVs, (granted Petyr never admitted anything like that either.)

Cersei getting blamed for crimes she didnt commit is kind of a gimmick for her. Jon Arryn, the attempt on Bran, so why not also the attempt on Tyrion?

So all we really know about Moore is he may have family in the Vale and that Jon Arryn brought him to Kingslanding.  Now, who else did Jon Arryn bring to KL? And does this person want to kill Tyrion?

3 hours ago, argonak said:

And the Pie thing?

Ok. Joff grabs his uncle's pie, takes a bite, and coughs to death. 

Tyrions trial proved that the poison was in the wine, it also proved that Tyrion had kingly ambitions and that Sansa was a murderer.

A dead king will not assist Petyr in the game of thrones, a dead dwarf can

3 hours ago, argonak said:

Wait what's this about Bronn working for Littlefinger?  Where is that from?

No idea

[argonak]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Who really knows? Cersei has never admitted it, nor even thought about it during her POVs, (granted Petyr never admitted anything like that either.)

Cersei getting blamed for crimes she didnt commit is kind of a gimmick for her. Jon Arryn, the attempt on Bran, so why not also the attempt on Tyrion?

So all we really know about Moore is he may have family in the Vale and that Jon Arryn brought him to Kingslanding.  Now, who else did Jon Arryn bring to KL? And does this person want to kill Tyrion?

Ok. Joff grabs his uncle's pie, takes a bite, and coughs to death. 

Tyrions trial proved that the poison was in the wine, it also proved that Tyrion had kingly ambitions and that Sansa was a murderer.

A dead king will not assist Petyr in the game of thrones, a dead dwarf can

No idea

Huh the pie thing.  I did a search on that and found some real rabbit-hole discussions from a few years ago on it.  it was actually really intriguing, thanks.  I always assumed it was the wine also.

[Dreadscythe95]

He has done that many times already.

[John Suburbs]

On 8/19/2019 at 11:30 AM, Lady Dacey said:

I missed this and I am very interested. Could you help me figure out what evidence we have that Bronn was Baelish's agent? 

It's sketchy. Littlefinger cannot allow Tyrion to reach King's Landing, and here is one of the most effective killers at the main gathering point on the kingsroad. Coincidence? Maybe. But consider this:

Bronn was the one who brought Shae into Tyrion's orbit. Shae is exactly the kind of operative that LF would employ: a sultry seductress who is also a commoner, which allows her to wheedle secrets from the high and mighty during pillow talk because they don't view her as any kind of threat. I can imagine LF has any number of Shaes spread across the land with instructions to infiltrate the nobility as high as they can get. Shae happened to land Tyrion, then Tywin.

Also, note that on at least three separate occasions, Shae begs Tyrion to bring her to the Purple Wedding, twice because she specifically wants to see pigeons fly out of a pie. I suspect that LF was pressuring on her to make this happen because she would then be the perfect person to snatch the poison from the hairnet and then tuck it into Tyrion's pie when she served him. Yes, this all goes back to the poison being in the pie, not the wine, and Tyrion being the target, not Joffrey.

So my guess is that Bronn was originally hired by LF to take out Tyrion, but being a sellsword, Bronn quickly realized he could get more from a son of Casterly Rock than from a landless Master of Coin. But that doesn't mean he wasn't above playing a double-game here: rescuing Tyrion from the Eyrie while still stringing LF along by bringing in Shae. And, of course, once he had gotten lands and titles from the Stokeworths, he dropped Tyrion like a hot potato.

[John Suburbs]

On 8/19/2019 at 11:45 AM, argonak said:

Wait what's this about Bronn working for Littlefinger?  Where is that from?  And the Pie thing?  And wasn't Mandon Moore working for Cersei?

See my above post to Lady Dacey for the Bronn angle. It's sketchy, but it's something I'm keeping my eye on.

The text is perfectly clear that the poison was in the pie, not the wine. It's a long, complicated explanation, so just search the boards for Purple Wedding and I'm sure you'll find it. Joffrey even tells us point blank that its the pie, kof kof, the pie.

Tyrion believes that Mandon Moore was working for Cersei, but recall his history. House Moore hails from the Vale and Ser Mandon was appointed to the KG at the urging of Jon Arryn who, as we know, was desperate to please his truculent wife who, as we know, is still madly in love with Littlefinger and even ends up killing Lord Jon at his direction. So it doesn't require a lot of dots to connect Mandon to Littlefinger, whereas there is nothing that connects him to Cersei.

And given that Mandon is literally described as a walking corpse, and we now have a certain pseudo-Maester working in King's Landing who specializes in walking corpses, it makes one wonder if Qyburn is somehow connected to Littlefinger as well.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Also, note that on at least three separate occasions, Shae begs Tyrion to bring her to the Purple Wedding, twice because she specifically wants to see pigeons fly out of a pie. I suspect that LF was pressuring on her to make this happen because she would then be the perfect person to snatch the poison from the hairnet and then tuck it into Tyrion's pie when she served him.

I do agree that Shae repeatedly asking to see thr pigeon pie is somewhat suspect, but not convincing enough to assume shes Petyrs agent. Firstly, Petyrs agent (Olenna) was present as Sansas hairnet lost one of its stones. Secondly, Shae was interrogated,  probably harshly, I suspect that she'd be quick to sell out Petyr if he was truly her boss

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So my guess is that Bronn was originally hired by LF to take out Tyrion, but being a sellsword, Bronn quickly realized he could get more from a son of Casterly Rock than from a landless Master of Coin. 

Bronn too, would then have had ample reason to sell out Petyr, but he doesnt as hes probably not an agent and clueless to the politics of Littlefinger. An example of this would be Bronns suprise when Tyrion vowed vengeance on being framed, thusly proving his innocence

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And, of course, once he had gotten lands and titles from the Stokeworths, he dropped Tyrion like a hot potato.

No he didnt. Tyrion dismissed Bronn while they were discussing Bronns Stokeworth prize. He then proceeds to name his stepson in honor of the Imp. Its rather obvious where his loyalty lies

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I do agree that Shae repeatedly asking to see thr pigeon pie is somewhat suspect, but not convincing enough to assume shes Petyrs agent. Firstly, Petyrs agent (Olenna) was present as Sansas hairnet lost one of its stones. Secondly, Shae was interrogated,  probably harshly, I suspect that she'd be quick to sell out Petyr if he was truly her boss

Bronn too, would then have had ample reason to sell out Petyr, but he doesnt as hes probably not an agent and clueless to the politics of Littlefinger. An example of this would be Bronns suprise when Tyrion vowed vengeance on being framed, thusly proving his innocence

No he didnt. Tyrion dismissed Bronn while they were discussing Bronns Stokeworth prize. He then proceeds to name his stepson in honor of the Imp. Its rather obvious where his loyalty lies

Right, it's sketchy. But IMO, there is enough here to keep an eye on it.

Well, Tyrion dismissed Bronn after Bronn refused to fight the mountain. So it was Bronn's call, not that I blame him.

His stepson? You mean Lollys' child resulting from half a hundred rapes by rampaging commoners? This shows Bronn's loyalty? Sounds more like an insult to me.

[argonak]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Right, it's sketchy. But IMO, there is enough here to keep an eye on it.

Well, Tyrion dismissed Bronn after Bronn refused to fight the mountain. So it was Bronn's call, not that I blame him.

His stepson? You mean Lollys' child resulting from half a hundred rapes by rampaging commoners? This shows Bronn's loyalty? Sounds more like an insult to me.

The baby doesn't have any control over the circumstances of his birth, nor does he bear any guilt.   We also haven't see anything about how Bronn feels about the child, so its hard to know whether he meant it as an insult or a memorial.   If Bronn raises the child as his own son, then I think we'll know he meant it as a positive.  

Hah, maybe we'll get a spinoff HBO story about Bronn someday.  Dude has a more interesting story than Brann at least.

[Nevets]

On 8/22/2019 at 8:55 AM, John Suburbs said:

It's sketchy. Littlefinger cannot allow Tyrion to reach King's Landing, and here is one of the most effective killers at the main gathering point on the kingsroad. Coincidence? Maybe. But consider this:

Bronn was the one who brought Shae into Tyrion's orbit. Shae is exactly the kind of operative that LF would employ: a sultry seductress who is also a commoner, which allows her to wheedle secrets from the high and mighty during pillow talk because they don't view her as any kind of threat. I can imagine LF has any number of Shaes spread across the land with instructions to infiltrate the nobility as high as they can get. Shae happened to land Tyrion, then Tywin.

Also, note that on at least three separate occasions, Shae begs Tyrion to bring her to the Purple Wedding, twice because she specifically wants to see pigeons fly out of a pie. I suspect that LF was pressuring on her to make this happen because she would then be the perfect person to snatch the poison from the hairnet and then tuck it into Tyrion's pie when she served him. Yes, this all goes back to the poison being in the pie, not the wine, and Tyrion being the target, not Joffrey.

So my guess is that Bronn was originally hired by LF to take out Tyrion, but being a sellsword, Bronn quickly realized he could get more from a son of Casterly Rock than from a landless Master of Coin. But that doesn't mean he wasn't above playing a double-game here: rescuing Tyrion from the Eyrie while still stringing LF along by bringing in Shae. And, of course, once he had gotten lands and titles from the Stokeworths, he dropped Tyrion like a hot potato.

This case is worse than thin..  It is non-existent.  Bronn is a secondary character brought in to help move Tyrion's story along, nothing more.

And Littlefinger is not the big bad, orchestrating every bad event from behind the scenes like some great puppet-master.  He is a quick-thinking opportunist who takes advantage of faavorable situations when they prevent themselves.

i wouldn't be surprised if Shae was a spy, but Tywin is a more likely suspect for being her boss. 

[Hugorfonics]

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, Tyrion dismissed Bronn after Bronn refused to fight the mountain. So it was Bronn's call, not that I blame him.

Bronn never really refused. Heres roughly the conversation

Quote

"Why are you here, then?"

Bronn shrugged. "You once told me that if anyone ever asked me to sell you out, you'd double the price."

Yes. "Is it two wives you want, or two castles?"

"One of each would serve. But if you want me to kill Gregor Clegane for you, it had best be a damned big castle."

...

"I find myself woefully short of both castles and highborn maidens at the moment," Tyrion admitted. "But I can offer you gold and gratitude, as before."

"I have gold. What can I buy with gratitude?"

"You might be surprised. A Lannister pays his debts."

...

Bronn gave a shrug. "Might be I could take him.

...

Why should I risk it? I like you well enough, ugly little whoreson that you are... but if I fight your battle, I lose either way. Either the Mountain spills my guts, or I kill him and lose Stokeworth. I sell my sword, I don't give it away. I'm not your bloody brother."

"No," said Tyrion sadly. "You're not." He waved a hand. "Begone, then. Run to Stokeworth and Lady Lollys. May you find more joy in your marriage bed than I ever found in mine."

Bronn hesitated at the door. "What will you do, Imp?"

"Kill Gregor myself. Won't that make for a jolly song?"

"I hope I hear them sing it." Bronn grinned one last time, and walked out of the door, the castle, and his life.

Bronn chose to meet Tyrion knowing that he doesnt have 2 castles at his disposal, after a few days of not showing up. I think part of him wanted to fight for Tyrion and wanted to get convinced, but Tyrion wound up agreeing with him. 

10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

His stepson? You mean Lollys' child resulting from half a hundred rapes by rampaging commoners? This shows Bronn's loyalty? Sounds more like an insult to me.

I think Tyrion (Lannister) will be amused and flattered. More amused.

Nah that's not an insult. Thats gratitude. Naming your son after your former employer? Respect.

Petyr may think that widowhood will become Sansa, but Bronn knows Tyrion is coming home

[John Suburbs]

On 8/23/2019 at 11:21 AM, argonak said:

The baby doesn't have any control over the circumstances of his birth, nor does he bear any guilt.   We also haven't see anything about how Bronn feels about the child, so its hard to know whether he meant it as an insult or a memorial.   If Bronn raises the child as his own son, then I think we'll know he meant it as a positive.  

Hah, maybe we'll get a spinoff HBO story about Bronn someday.  Dude has a more interesting story than Brann at least.

Um, it's a baseborn bastard, born of rape. In a culture where just plain old bastards are said to be wanton and treacherous by nature, having been born of lust, lies and weakness, I can only imagine the stigma that a rape baby will carry. Cersei's reaction when Tanda Stokeworth wants to name the baby after Tywin is all you need to conclude that having this child as your namesake can be seen as nothing but a tremendous insult.

And Bronn is going to adopt this child and raise it on his own? This Bronn?

Quote

"My bitch sister has sold you a lame horse. The girl's dim-witted."

"If I wanted wits, I'd marry you."

"Lollys is big with another man's child."

"And when she pops him out, I'll get her big with mine."

"She's not even heir to Stokeworth," Tyrion pointed out. "She has an elder sister. Falyse. A married sister."

"Married ten years and still barren," said Bronn. "Her lord husband shuns her bed. It's said he prefers virgins."

"He could prefer goats and it wouldn't matter. The lands will still pass to his wife when Lady Tanda dies."

"Unless Falyse should die before her mother."

Tyrion wondered whether Cersei had any notion of the sort of serpent she'd given Lady Tanda to suckle.

Sorry, but I don't see Bronn as the adoptive fathering type. It's more likely that he'll kill it and throw it in the moat just to prevent any possible counter-claim to his new castle. And then maybe he'll name his true-born son after Tyrion, if he feels like honoring the Imp.

[John Suburbs]

On 8/23/2019 at 7:40 PM, Nevets said:

This case is worse than thin..  It is non-existent.  Bronn is a secondary character brought in to help move Tyrion's story along, nothing more.

And Littlefinger is not the big bad, orchestrating every bad event from behind the scenes like some great puppet-master.  He is a quick-thinking opportunist who takes advantage of faavorable situations when they prevent themselves.

i wouldn't be surprised if Shae was a spy, but Tywin is a more likely suspect for being her boss. 

Yeah, I know it's weak. Just something I'm going to keep my eye on, for now. Feel free to ignore it.

Secondary characters have a way of becoming important, BTW: Gendry, Loras, Roose Bolton, Jeyne Poole . . .

[John Suburbs]

On 8/23/2019 at 8:10 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Bronn never really refused. Heres roughly the conversation

Bronn chose to meet Tyrion knowing that he doesnt have 2 castles at his disposal, after a few days of not showing up. I think part of him wanted to fight for Tyrion and wanted to get convinced, but Tyrion wound up agreeing with him. 

I think Tyrion (Lannister) will be amused and flattered. More amused.

Nah that's not an insult. Thats gratitude. Naming your son after your former employer? Respect.

Petyr may think that widowhood will become Sansa, but Bronn knows Tyrion is coming home

It was still Bronn's decision. He decided that the risk was too great for the reward.

This is not Bronn's son. It is a baseborn bastard sired by rape. But of all people, Tyrion might laugh at the thought of a little Tyrion Waters running around Stokeworth, but even he would not see it as a true honor. Just a joke.

[argonak]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Um, it's a baseborn bastard, born of rape. In a culture where just plain old bastards are said to be wanton and treacherous by nature, having been born of lust, lies and weakness, I can only imagine the stigma that a rape baby will carry. Cersei's reaction when Tanda Stokeworth wants to name the baby after Tywin is all you need to conclude that having this child as your namesake can be seen as nothing but a tremendous insult.

And Bronn is going to adopt this child and raise it on his own? This Bronn?

Sorry, but I don't see Bronn as the adoptive fathering type. It's more likely that he'll kill it and throw it in the moat just to prevent any possible counter-claim to his new castle. And then maybe he'll name his true-born son after Tyrion, if he feels like honoring the Imp.

Naming the baby Tyrion only drew Cersei's ire, so I don't see that Bronn has anything positive to gain from it.  Seems like he's memorializing a former employer and something of a friend to me.  I doubt he cares much about any Westerosi prejudices, the guy has likely experienced them all already.  He's a homeless vagrant sellsword when we meet him, who probably never even hoped to get one-one hundredth the success he has.

If Bronn wanted the baby dead, the baby would be dead.  "Dead in childbirth" would be pretty easily done.   And that would be Lolly's one step closer to being pregnant again, nursing a baby will likely add a half a year or more before she can conceive.  Anyway, I don't expect he'd adopt it, but that doesn't mean he's going to chuck it out a window.   

Side question, is adoption even a thing in Westeros?

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It was still Bronn's decision. He decided that the risk was too great for the reward.

Sure. Well, he decided that the risk is too great for no reward, certainly not the loss of a reward

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is not Bronn's son. It is a baseborn bastard sired by rape. But of all people, Tyrion might laugh at the thought of a little Tyrion Waters running around Stokeworth, but even he would not see it as a true honor. Just a joke.

In all probability, Young Tyrion wasn't named for honor or a joke, but politics. Perhaps Bronn knew that Cersei and his father inlaw would bug out and botch an assassination on him, thus strengthening his hold on Stokeworth. After all, Bronn knows Cersei. 

He also knows Tyrion. The man likes living and paying his debts. Hes going to come home, and having your namesake in the closest castle to KL is a good sign of loyalty.

1 hour ago, argonak said:

Side question, is adoption even a thing in Westeros?

Err, maybe? So, Snow. What else would you call Jon? Then again, Jon and the world thinks hes Neds, so its like a secret adoption. Likewise theres Young Griff and Alayne, who know theyre adopted though the world doesnt.

Speaking of Alayne, her "father" refers to Lord Robert as his stepson. Though a stepchild is not an adopted child. Then theres an orphanage overseen by Lady Stoneheart, though taking care of orphans is not the same as adoption

 

[argonak]

29 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Err, maybe? So, Snow. What else would you call Jon? Then again, Jon and the world thinks hes Neds, so its like a secret adoption. Likewise theres Young Griff and Alayne, who know theyre adopted though the world doesnt.

Speaking of Alayne, her "father" refers to Lord Robert as his stepson. Though a stepchild is not an adopted child. Then theres an orphanage overseen by Lady Stoneheart, though taking care of orphans is not the same as adoption

 

I meant is there legal adoption.  It doesn't seem like it, or else you wouldn't need crown authorization to legitimize a bastard, you could just adopt them.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, argonak said:

Naming the baby Tyrion only drew Cersei's ire, so I don't see that Bronn has anything positive to gain from it.  Seems like he's memorializing a former employer and something of a friend to me.  I doubt he cares much about any Westerosi prejudices, the guy has likely experienced them all already.  He's a homeless vagrant sellsword when we meet him, who probably never even hoped to get one-one hundredth the success he has.

If Bronn wanted the baby dead, the baby would be dead.  "Dead in childbirth" would be pretty easily done.   And that would be Lolly's one step closer to being pregnant again, nursing a baby will likely add a half a year or more before she can conceive.  Anyway, I don't expect he'd adopt it, but that doesn't mean he's going to chuck it out a window.   

Side question, is adoption even a thing in Westeros?

Are we certain that the babe is not already dead? We've had no word from Stokeworth since Falyse was sent to the black cells.

But I stand corrected on one point. He is not Tyrion Waters. He is Tyrion Tanner.

I doubt they have formal adoption agencies and paperwork and all that, but orphans are adopted or "taken in." Hot Pie is essentially adopted by the innkeeper and his wife. If you are an older couple with no children of your own and need help on the farm, you take in an orphan, probably through the church. But whether this means the orphans become the parents' children in the legal sense is unclear. For smallfolk, it would be moot, unless maybe if the parents were wealthy merchants or tradesmen. For highborns it would matter, but I don't think we have any examples of a lord adopting someone as their legal son. A ward is probably the closest we can get.

[Hugorfonics]

20 hours ago, argonak said:

I meant is there legal adoption.  It doesn't seem like it, or else you wouldn't need crown authorization to legitimize a bastard, you could just adopt them.

Word, so theres this

Quote

Prince Jacaerys announced (with the prompting of Mushroom, if his Testimony is to be believed) that any man or woman who could ride one of these dragons would be ennobled.

Many attempted to mount the dragons that were still available on Dragonstone. The most perilous of these were the wild dragons, so it was no wonder that the dragons who had previously accepted riders were the first to find new riders. Among these new dragonriders was Addam of Hull—a brave and noble youth who was brought by his mother, Marilda of Hull, to try for a dragon along with his brother Alyn. She revealed that the boys were the sons of Laenor Velaryon—a fact that many found remarkable, but which Lord Corlys did not question when he adopted them both into House Velaryon.

Mushroom puts forward a more plausible possibility on Addam and Alyn's parentage: that it was Lord Corlys himself who fathered both boys, back when he spent many of his days at the shipyards of Hull where Marilda's father was a shipwright.

This is the only case of legal adoption that I could find, its not the best precedent pertaining to our discussion, with Addam being family and a dragonrider, but its something

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Are we certain that the babe is not already dead? We've had no word from Stokeworth since Falyse was sent to the black cells.

Lol, cold. Im certain of nothing, but when Bronn was asked if hed kill a baby with no questions asked, he said no, hed ask about a reward first. What'd be the reward for killing Young Tyrion? Hes just an innocent bastard baby

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But I stand corrected on one point. He is not Tyrion Waters. He is Tyrion Tanner.

No, don't. What kind of name is Tanner? Certainly not a bastards name. I see wiki also calls Young Tyrion a Tanner, I take issue with that. The kids gotta be a Waters