Any theories about Prince Maegor, son of Aerion Brightflame?

[Daendrew]

Any theories about Prince Maegor, son of Aerion Brightflame?

His claim was stronger than Egg's. Not much is written about him. All that's mentioned of him was that he was a baby. Nothing about when he grew up.

[rotting sea cow]

He is Varys father, maybe

Or Marwyn's.

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

He probably died young or at Summerhall.  

[Seams]

Could be Littlefinger's father or grandfather. I think Baelish is descended from Elaena Targaryen, the sister of King Baelor / Daeron I and cousin of Aegon IV.

For three generations, House Targaryen's line was:

Daeron II + Myriah Martell

then

Maekar I + Diana Dayne

then

Aegon V + Betha Blackwood

Then the kings started marrying sisters again, and the Targaryen blood stopped being "watered down" by intermarriage with other families.

I am guessing that we are going to see one or more people emerge who have "purer" Targaryen (or Valyrian) blood than do the claimants to the royal family. A lot of the matching would have to be speculation, unless GRRM reveals something at a later date. For instance:

Eleana's oldest child was supposedly conceived as her first husband, Ossifer Plumm, died while bedding her on their wedding night. The historians hint that Aegon IV might have actually crawled into bed and impregnated his cousin Eleana, however, because it was important to an alliance that there be a "Plumm" heir from Eleana's marriage.

Eleana's parents were

Targaryen + Velaryon

Let's use that as a Targaryen baseline since Eleana and Daeron I had the same parents.

Then

Eleana Targaryen + Aegon IV (mother was a Rogare) = Viserys Plumm (half Targ; 1/4 Velaryon; 1/4 Rogare)

Eleana Targaryen + Velaryon = Waters and Longwaters (1/4 Targaryen; 3/4 Velaryon)

Eleana Targaryen + Penrose = House Penrose (apparently the Penroses are Targ cousins, but GRRM has not made the relationship clear)

My guess is that Baelish might be a descendant of Eleana's "Plumm" line. If her son, Viserys, married (or had issue with) a descendant of Aerion Brightflame, that would make their Targaryen/Velaryon inbreeding even closer to the family ideal.

I suspect the Waters and Longwaters descendants are allies of Petyr Baelish, helping him behind the scenes.

A Penrose was the castellan for Renly at Storm's End, protecting Robert's bastard son, Edric Storm. Edric could be a metaphor for the idea of a hidden (Targaryen) heir or descendant who would emerge to become a pretender to the throne.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

He is Varys father, maybe.

If this is the case, then Varys would likely be some bastard, not his legitimate son. George is not likely to give us a ridiculous story where Prince Maegor's legitimate son disappears only to reappear as a bald eunuch.

7 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Or Marwyn's.

That is an interesting idea, but there are other Targaryen cousins around if we actually interpret Marwyn's talk as him claiming that he has Targaryen blood. He could be Marwyn Penrose, for instance.

5 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

He probably died young or at Summerhall.  

That is actually more likely. It is also not unlikely that he is going to get an Aerea-like story, becoming a dynastic dead end like her, without being completely insignificant. A good chance is that he eventually became a pawn in the hands of one of Aegon V's enemies.

But he certainly could also live long enough to die at Summerhall. I actually like the idea that he turns out to be a completely decent guy in spite of his ominous name.

59 minutes ago, Seams said:

Could be Littlefinger's father or grandfather. I think Baelish is descended from Elaena Targaryen, the sister of King Baelor / Daeron I and cousin of Aegon IV.

That is not very likely. And we actually do know that Lord Viserys Plumm had a couple of sons - one of the younger son is, according to Tyrion, the ancestor of Brown Ben Plumm.

Lord Viserys Plumm was also born in the 170s and was thus a man grown (and likely already a father) as early as 209 AC. Prince Maegor was only born in 232 AC, making it essentially impossible that any of Lord Viserys' children (assuming he had daughters in addition to those sons of his) married Prince Maegor.

And Littlefinger has basically no connections to anyone in the Stormlands or the West - he is a descendant of Braavosi immigrants to the Vale.

[rotting sea cow]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If this is the case, then Varys would likely be some bastard, not his legitimate son. George is not likely to give us a ridiculous story where Prince Maegor's legitimate son disappears only to reappear as a bald eunuch.

 

Unless some ill befell Maegor and his family. We still need to explain Varys motivations during Aerys reign, but of course other possibilities exist.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is an interesting idea, but there are other Targaryen cousins around if we actually interpret Marwyn's talk as him claiming that he has Targaryen blood. He could be Marwyn Penrose, for instance.

True.

Thing is Brightflame starts to be mentioned at the same time that the Blackfyres which gives an structural argument that the former should play an important role too. But where are they? 

There is also Moqorro prophecy that Tyrion has met/going to meet six dragons. He has met three we know of. Jon, Aemon and Aegon. But who is the "bright" dragon?

Tyrion has met Varys, so it's a possibility. Tyrion is likely going to meet Marwyn, so it's another. 

Some have suggested Daario too, maybe a grandson?, but I don't find him significant enough yet.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

That is not very likely. And we actually do know that Lord Viserys Plumm had a couple of sons - one of the younger son is, according to Tyrion, the ancestor of Brown Ben Plumm.

Lord Viserys Plumm was also born in the 170s and was thus a man grown (and likely already a father) as early as 209 AC. Prince Maegor was only born in 232 AC, making it essentially impossible that any of Lord Viserys' children (assuming he had daughters in addition to those sons of his) married Prince Maegor.

And Littlefinger has basically no connections to anyone in the Stormlands or the West - he is a descendant of Braavosi immigrants to the Vale.

Yeah, I don't think we need anything of that sort to explain Littlefinger

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Unless some ill befell Maegor and his family. We still need to explain Varys motivations during Aerys reign, but of course other possibilities exist.

While such scenarios are not implausible, there is the fact that Aerys II was born in 244 AC, when Prince Maegor would have been twelve. Aerys II and Rhaella and other members of the court would have known Maegor's wife and children, and with the strong family resemblance in the inbred Targaryen bloodline (we see this in FaB with Aegon the Uncrowned looking like the Conqueror, Jaehaerys I looking like Maegor, one of Saera's sons looking like their grandfather, etc.) it seems to be basically out of the question that nobody realized Aerys II pet eunuch didn't resemble the king or the Prince of Dragonstone rather strongly - and I'm not talking about Valyrian hair and eyes here, but about the face, shape of nose and ears, etc.

It is also not really convincing, I'd say, that Aegon V would allow Maegor's son to grow up in slavery even if Maegor himself betrayed him. Granted, there are scenarios imaginable where Maegor's child or children are presumed dead, but all this would be very convenient.

Not impossible but certainly not really my preferred scenario. If Varys were a Targaryen descendant then Maegor's mother would be a much more interesting candidate - if Daenora lived she could have left Westeros.

6 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Thing is Brightflame starts to be mentioned at the same time that the Blackfyres which gives an structural argument that the former should play an important role too. But where are they? 

No, Aerion Brightflame is first mentioned in ACoK, whereas Daemon Blackfyre is first mentioned in ASoS.

I certainly concede that George may have originally thought to make Varys/Illyrio/Aegon a plot tied to the son of Aerion's that was passed over, but when he continued Dunk & Egg he came up with the Great Bastards and the Blackfyre pretenders - which both provide background for the main series while, at the same time, make the times of Dunk & Egg more interesting and troubled.

This is why I think Maegor is more likely to have a Aerea-like story than a story giving him dynastic importance

6 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

There is also Moqorro prophecy that Tyrion has met/going to meet six dragons. He has met three we know of. Jon, Aemon and Aegon. But who is the "bright" dragon?

Bloodraven, perhaps? He is at least white. And the talk is not necessarily that Tyrion meets all those guys but rather that he is in the middle of them - which could also imply that he is part of their machinations or plays a significant part in their stories, etc. Actual interaction wouldn't be necessary.

But I'm not sure that we have any reason to interpret Moqorro's talk as him meaning human dragons. Viserion can be described as bright, just as Drogon can be described as a dark dragon, no? And there is no reason to assume that magic/R'hllor/whoever creates the images in the flames has to be consistent in depicting Targaryen/Blackfyre descendants as dragons - especially not when there is an actual vision of the Dany's real dragons in addition to those referencing people. Mel also seems to have seen a glimpse of the real dragons in one of her visions, and we can be reasonably sure that the visions are not going to obscure the existence of actual dragons by depicting them as people or by using some other weird symbology.

[asongofheresy]

On 8/17/2019 at 5:58 PM, Daendrew said:

Any theories about Prince Maegor, son of Aerion Brightflame?

His claim was stronger than Egg's. Not much is written about him. All that's mentioned of him was that he was a baby. Nothing about when he grew up.

I like to theorize he married a Dayne lady and that's why Ashara, Gerold and Ned has Targaryen features. We have no other Dayne's compared to Targaryen's before them, and Maekar's wife Dyanna Dayne seem to have common features like her son Daeron. More crazier theory is about Ashara and Gerold being children of Rhaella and Aerys. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

How 'bout a little crackpot, eh? The red witch is old, very old, and she keeps herself young in appearance through some voodoo, right? And Shiera Seastar was said to bathe in the blood of virgins to maintain her beauty, right? Well maybe Varys is Maegor! Mayhaps the fat man's sorcerer sacrifices his little birds without the tongues once they grow too old for his service in the bowels of the Red Keep...  Hey, it's better than Varys is a mermaid. 

Seriously, we can be pretty sure that from the very beginning the real fat man planned to have Aegon dance with Daenerys. And we can be pretty sure that he wanted the reader to question the hidden prince's identity. I suspect that the George originally intended for the reader to trace the possible descent from Aerion, but then started digging the Blackfyre, and plugging that subplot into the foreshadowing of the second dance. (@Ran has confirmed that the Blackfyre was not quickened before the end of Clash.)

But maybe we'll still get a pretender descended from Aerion. 

[Daendrew]

 

 

 

1

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

How 'bout a little crackpot, eh? The red witch is old, very old, and she keeps herself young in appearance through some voodoo, right? And Shiera Seastar was said to bathe in the blood of virgins to maintain her beauty, right? Well maybe Varys is Maegor! Mayhaps the fat man's sorcerer sacrifices his little birds without the tongues once they grow too old for his service in the bowels of the Red Keep...  Hey, it's better than Varys is a mermaid. 

I came, I laughed, you conquered.

[Rose of Red Lake]

If I recall, no one wanted him to rule because he was a baby and because they were worried he would be mad. To me this proves that the series won't end with a pure blood incest baby on the throne.

[The hairy bear]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If I recall, no one wanted him to rule because he was a baby and because they were worried he would be mad. To me this proves that the series won't end with a pure blood incest baby on the throne.

AFAIK, no one in Westeros has ever correlated inbreedness with madness. This is a modern perception.

Maegor was thought mad because his father was seen as mad. But among the best valued Targaryen kings there are plenty of men born out of incest.

[Lord Varys]

On 10/25/2019 at 9:32 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

How 'bout a little crackpot, eh? The red witch is old, very old, and she keeps herself young in appearance through some voodoo, right? And Shiera Seastar was said to bathe in the blood of virgins to maintain her beauty, right? Well maybe Varys is Maegor! Mayhaps the fat man's sorcerer sacrifices his little birds without the tongues once they grow too old for his service in the bowels of the Red Keep...  Hey, it's better than Varys is a mermaid. 

Seriously, we can be pretty sure that from the very beginning the real fat man planned to have Aegon dance with Daenerys. And we can be pretty sure that he wanted the reader to question the hidden prince's identity. I suspect that the George originally intended for the reader to trace the possible descent from Aerion, but then started digging the Blackfyre, and plugging that subplot into the foreshadowing of the second dance. (@Ran has confirmed that the Blackfyre was not quickened before the end of Clash.)

But maybe we'll still get a pretender descended from Aerion. 

With FaB showing as that the Valyrian inbreeds pretty much all look alike I've gotten very skeptical that there could have been a close relation of Aerys II himself at his court without anybody ever noticing who the guy was. And even before that, we knew Viserys III looked essentially like Rhaegar, and can assume that Aerys II basically looked like his two sons, and Jaehaerys II like a weaker version of his son and grandsons, while Aegon V would have been a stronger version of both Jaehaerys II and Aerys II, looking pretty much exactly like his brother Aerion.

If Varys sort of looked like Aerys II's grandfather he would notice that. And other people knowing the Targaryens of old would, too.

Either Aerys II knew who Varys was - and that was the reason why he was hired and trusted with the secrets of the castle he clearly got from the Targaryens - or he is not that closely related.

That could also mean that whatever Blackfyre branch Varys is descended from didn't do much incest in the last couple of years. I expect Haegon to have married one of his sisters, but the other brothers may have been forced to look elsewhere for brides.

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

AFAIK, no one in Westeros has ever correlated inbreedness with madness. This is a modern perception.

Maegor was thought mad because his father was seen as mad. But among the best valued Targaryen kings there are plenty of men born out of incest.

Yeah, they only make short-term calculations - like a son might inherit the traits of a father or mother. But not that a nephew might have the traits of his uncle, or a grandson those of his grandparent, etc.

I mean, if you check FaB it is really fun to see how the traits jump across generations and genders.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

With FaB showing as that the Valyrian inbreeds pretty much all look alike I've gotten very skeptical that there could have been a close relation of Aerys II himself at his court without anybody ever noticing who the guy was. And even before that, we knew Viserys III looked essentially like Rhaegar, and can assume that Aerys II basically looked like his two sons, and Jaehaerys II like a weaker version of his son and grandsons, while Aegon V would have been a stronger version of both Jaehaerys II and Aerys II, looking pretty much exactly like his brother Aerion.

If Varys sort of looked like Aerys II's grandfather he would notice that. And other people knowing the Targaryens of old would, too.

Either Aerys II knew who Varys was - and that was the reason why he was hired and trusted with the secrets of the castle he clearly got from the Targaryens - or he is not that closely related.

That could also mean that whatever Blackfyre branch Varys is descended from didn't do much incest in the last couple of years. I expect Haegon to have married one of his sisters, but the other brothers may have been forced to look elsewhere for brides.

Yeah, they only make short-term calculations - like a son might inherit the traits of a father or mother. But not that a nephew might have the traits of his uncle, or a grandson those of his grandparent, etc.

I mean, if you check FaB it is really fun to see how the traits jump across generations and genders.

No, when Jaime goes down the list of who to put on the throne, he rules out Aegon VI, who he thinks could be mad, and Aerys is his grandson. My point was that Westeros is likely to see Dany's child, if she ever has one, the same way.

[Back door hodor]

On 8/17/2019 at 10:58 AM, Daendrew said:

Any theories about Prince Maegor, son of Aerion Brightflame?

His claim was stronger than Egg's. Not much is written about him. All that's mentioned of him was that he was a baby. Nothing about when he grew up.