Davos Seaworth as Admiral of a war fleet

[The Young Maester]

Been brooding recently whether Seaworth would be a capable or a great admiral of a war fleet. I know he has commanded a ship or maybe various ships throughout his time serving Stannis. And since my knowledge of sea warfare isn't as good as my knowledge of land warfare. Im curious how a former smuggler like Davos would fare as an admiral of an entire war fleet. Im aware Davos is a great sailor, and this is demonstrated when he managed to slip through the Redwyne fleet blockading Storms end. But still dont know if these stealth and sailing skills would make him one of the best Admirals in Westeros. 

[Only 89 selfies today]

54 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Been brooding recently whether Seaworth would be a capable or a great admiral of a war fleet.

It depends on who rules and what she would ask of Davos.  Smuggling and sneaky tactics are the core strengths of Davos.  Battle planning is not among his talents.  Davos has nothing that a Braavosi captain cannot offer Queen Daenerys.  In other words, she has the whole of Essos to tap talent from.  Stannis is low on resources and might have to make do with a former smuggler to lead his fleet.  

[Tywin Manderly]

7 minutes ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

 Stannis is low on resources and might have to make do with a former smuggler to lead his fleet.  

Spoiler from The Winds of Winter:
 

Spoiler

 

Quote

"Your place is where I say it is. I have five hundred swords as good as you, or better, but you have a pleasing manner and a glib tongue, and those will be of more use to me at Braavos then here. The Iron Bank has opened its coffers to me. You will collect their coin and hire ships and sellswords. A company of good repute, if you can find one. The Golden Company would be my first choice, if they are not already under contract. Seek for them in the Disputed Lands, if need be. But first hire as many swords as you can find in Braavos, and send them to me by way of Eastwatch. Archers as well, we need more bows."

The lack of resources plaguing Stannis will soon enough come to an end. He has the money now to hire any sellsail as well as every pirate on planetos.

 

 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

No. Davos is no admiral. We have no evidence of that. And it's hard to see Stannis giving this position away when arguably he himself is the best candidate to command a fleet of ships. In fairness to Davos, he could probably command a fleet to move from a to b. He clearly has knowledge of seafaring from his time as a smuggler. But commanding a war fleet from the deck and taking them into battle would be a whole bunch of other skills. Plus, he's Stannis' Hand. I don't think a king would send his hand to do this. 

If Stannis had need of an admiral then I would like to see Asha take up that position. But that ain't gonna happen. 

[The hairy bear]

I think Stannis could do much worse than Davos as admiral. In fact, he did. He choose Imry Florent to command his fleet at the Blackwater (although, to be fair, the decision was probably imposed by politics).

That's what Davos thinks about Imry's performance before the Battle of the Blackwater:

Had he been admiral, he might have done it all differently. For a start, he would have sent a few of his swiftest ships to probe upriver and see what awaited them, instead of smashing in headlong. When he had suggested as much to Ser Imry, the Lord High Captain had thanked him courteously, but his eyes were not as polite. Who is this lowborn craven? those eyes asked. (...) With four times as many ships as the boy king, Ser Imry saw no need for caution or deceptive tactics.

If Stannis' fleet had been in Davos hands, he would still have it.

[Aebram]

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Had he been admiral, he might have done it all differently. For a start, he would have sent a few of his swiftest ships to probe upriver and see what awaited them, instead of smashing in headlong. When he had suggested as much to Ser Imry, the Lord High Captain had thanked him courteously, but his eyes were not as polite. Who is this lowborn craven? those eyes asked. (...) With four times as many ships as the boy king, Ser Imry saw no need for caution or deceptive tactics.

If Stannis' fleet had been in Davos hands, he would still have it.

That's an interesting what-if.  My first thought was to agree with the other posters:  Davos is a smuggler, not an admiral, and he'd be out of his element commanding a large fleet  in a battle.  But  your quote raises an interesting point ...

We know that Davos noticed the chain boom on his way upriver.  If Davos had been in command, he would have known about it beforehand.  He would have assigned a few ships to attack the chain stations and prevent the boom from being raised.  As a result, when the wildfire attack began, Stannis' fleet would have been able to escape; or if they didn't retreat, at least they'd have more room to maneuver.  They still might not win the battle, but at least it wouldn't have been such a crushing defeat. 

And Davos' smuggling experience might have given him other advantages. Other posters have pointed out that, throughout ASOIAF, battles are often won by cleverness rather than brute force. Davos might have used sabotage, deception, attacking during bad weather, etc. to improve his odds of winning.  Who knows, with two more books to go, we may yet get to see him command a fleet.

BTW, a little historical tidbit:  wildfire is one of those story elements, like the Wall, that actually has a basis in facts.  "Greek fire" is an ancient incendiary weapon that was used by Greek and Roman navies in the 7th century A.D.  It apparently contained some type of oil, so it could burn when wet, and could even burn while floating on open water.

[Trigger Warning]

Imry didn't do much wrong anyway, it's Stannis that wants him to funnel the fleet into the Blackwater Rush to move his men across instead of just landing them North of the city or something. Davos' thoughts about sending scouts wouldn't do much either, they can see the enemy fleet, the entire army on the southern shore can see the fleet, the scouts aren't going to get close enough to see that the hulks are carrying wildfire because why would they? They'd report exactly what they already know that the fleet is there and there's a winch tower with a chain. So the options are simple, carry out the assault and go ahead with Stannis' plan or anchor the fleet, go ashore and tell Stannis you have some misgivings about the winch tower Stannis has failed to capture, I'm sure that conversation would go well. 

Basically tell Stannis you disagree with his strategy or go ahead with it, then again you know what I disagree with myself Imry did do a lot wrong. He should have changed the plan, there's no reason at all to fight the enemy fleet and ferry men across under fire when you can just blockade the river and land the men North of the city in complete safety instead. Dumb shit plan from the ground up. 

[The hairy bear]

18 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Imry didn't do much wrong anyway

It's true that Imry just carried out the orders that he had been given. But isn't that what any mediocre admiral would do? What a great commander does is to go beyond what's directly stated, take responsible decisions on the ground, and stay true to the spirit rather than the text of the orders.

18 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Davos' thoughts about sending scouts wouldn't do much either, they can see the enemy fleet, the entire army on the southern shore can see the fleet, the scouts aren't going to get close enough to see that the hulks are carrying wildfire because why would they?

There's no need to see the wildfire husks. When entering the Blackwater Bay, Davos immediately realizes that there's a boom chain in the towers and that the largest galleys of the Lannister fleet are not there. If the scouts had come back with this information, a sensible admiral would have been more cautious, at least. Perhaps he may even deduce what kind of plan the Lannisters had in mind.

18 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

So the options are simple, carry out the assault and go ahead with Stannis' plan or anchor the fleet, go ashore and tell Stannis you have some misgivings about the winch tower Stannis has failed to capture, I'm sure that conversation would go well

There are more options than that.

Refuse to give to the enemy what he obviously wants and avoid jamming the ships too close. Land the men North of the city. Send some tentative attacks to test the water. Try to immobilize the chain by placing to big galleys above it...

Stannis is an experienced commander. He would understand that an admiral needs to have some kind of autonomy to take decisions on the ground. Stannis would understand that when he devised his plan, he didn't know that the Lannisters would be waiting inside the river leaving the Northern bay undefended, and he couldn't suspect that there would be plenty of signs indicating there was a trap.

It seems to me that the problem with Imry was that he was overconfident. He had a much bigger fleet, and he was convinced that he would win without effort. That's why he didn't bother to send scouts, disdained Salladhor Saan, and charged directly to the enemy without further thought.

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

He probably wouldn’t have been brilliant nor would he have been terrible but he was under the command and watchful eye of Stannis who was an experienced and Talented Naval commander.

[Universal Sword Donor]

25 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

It's true that Imry just carried out the orders that he had been given. But isn't that what any mediocre admiral would do? What a great commander does is to go beyond what's directly stated, take responsible decisions on the ground, and stay true to the spirit rather than the text of the orders.

There's no need to see the wildfire husks. When entering the Blackwater Bay, Davos immediately realizes that there's a boom chain in the towers and that the largest galleys of the Lannister fleet are not there. If the scouts had come back with this information, a sensible admiral would have been more cautious, at least. Perhaps he may even deduce what kind of plan the Lannisters had in mind. 

There are more options than that.

Refuse to give to the enemy what he obviously wants and avoid jamming the ships too close. Land the men North of the city. Send some tentative attacks to test the water. Try to immobilize the chain by placing to big galleys above it...

Stannis is an experienced commander. He would understand that an admiral needs to have some kind of autonomy to take decisions on the ground. Stannis would understand that when he devised his plan, he didn't know that the Lannisters would be waiting inside the river leaving the Northern bay undefended, and he couldn't suspect that there would be plenty of signs indicating there was a trap.

It seems to me that the problem with Imry was that he was overconfident. He had a much bigger fleet, and he was convinced that he would win without effort. That's why he didn't bother to send scouts, disdained Salladhor Saan, and charged directly to the enemy without further thought.

Honestly all they really needed to do was scout, see the booms, and make the decision to ferry the troops to the north shore and assault those gates. He had more than enough ships to engage the Lannister fleet while ferrying Stannis' men to wherever they needed to go. The really glaring thing is that they already *knew* about the boom towers from the fishermen and that Stannis had been unable to take them. They're obviously there for a reason, so avoiding a trap is basically 100% common sense.

Edit: Also meant to add that the Florents are clearly meant to be incompetent / untrustworthy as a family. Leaving Selyse aside, Imry falls into a trap bc of stubborness and overconfidence, Alester "betrays" Stannis and his cause, and Axell is just a brown nosing, dumb asshole.

[Trigger Warning]

6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Honestly all they really needed to do was scout, see the booms, and make the decision to ferry the troops to the north shore and assault those gates. He had more than enough ships to engage the Lannister fleet while ferrying Stannis' men to wherever they needed to go. The really glaring thing is that they already *knew* about the boom towers from the fishermen and that Stannis had been unable to take them. They're obviously there for a reason, so avoiding a trap is basically 100% common sense.

Edit: Also meant to add that the Florents are clearly meant to be incompetent / untrustworthy as a family. Leaving Selyse aside, Imry falls into a trap bc of stubborness and overconfidence, Alester "betrays" Stannis and his cause, and Axell is just a brown nosing, dumb asshole.

6 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It's true that Imry just carried out the orders that he had been given. But isn't that what any mediocre admiral would do? What a great commander does is to go beyond what's directly stated, take responsible decisions on the ground, and stay true to the spirit rather than the text of the orders.

There's no need to see the wildfire husks. When entering the Blackwater Bay, Davos immediately realizes that there's a boom chain in the towers and that the largest galleys of the Lannister fleet are not there. If the scouts had come back with this information, a sensible admiral would have been more cautious, at least. Perhaps he may even deduce what kind of plan the Lannisters had in mind.

There are more options than that.

Refuse to give to the enemy what he obviously wants and avoid jamming the ships too close. Land the men North of the city. Send some tentative attacks to test the water. Try to immobilize the chain by placing to big galleys above it...

Stannis is an experienced commander. He would understand that an admiral needs to have some kind of autonomy to take decisions on the ground. Stannis would understand that when he devised his plan, he didn't know that the Lannisters would be waiting inside the river leaving the Northern bay undefended, and he couldn't suspect that there would be plenty of signs indicating there was a trap.

It seems to me that the problem with Imry was that he was overconfident. He had a much bigger fleet, and he was convinced that he would win without effort. That's why he didn't bother to send scouts, disdained Salladhor Saan, and charged directly to the enemy without further thought.

The thing is the first assumption would be that the chain is likely there to attempt to deny them the river or in the event of them entering the river to then cut the fleet in half, with that information they may still attack since they'd still have a vast numerical advantage even if they the chain was raised. The missing and critical information is the wildfire, without that the chains are a problem but not indicative of a problem that's necessarily worth changing the entire plan, the mere existence of a lowered chain boon isn't enough to make anyone jump to the conclusion that they're going to blow up the entire river if anything the Lannisters would simply appear to be attempting to shift the odds in their favour by ensuring that the ships attack the fleet in the river instead of leisurely landing men to the North out in the bay where they could bring their full strength to bear. 

The river denies Stannis' fleet the ability to envelop the Lannister fleet and the chain offers them the chance to split Stannis' fleet in half, obviously accepting this means fighting on the enemies terms but sometimes you have to do that to accomplish your objectives, the Lannister fleet would simply appear to be taking advantage of this, a wildfire bomb plot wouldn't be obvious I don't think. Now assuming that Stannis is militarily competent and the battle wasn't just written this way as a spectacle then he must have had a reason to want to land his men directly under the walls and expose his fleet to the Red Keep and walls in doing so in the first place, the most likely reason to do this would have to be time, ferrying his men across the river would be the fastest and most dangerous option, again if this is Stannis' intention I doubt he'd alter the entire plan just because of a chain and if he considered it that great of a threat would have made more of an attempt to take it before the arrival of the fleet. He intends to assault a walled city via an amphibious landing, taking one winch tower shouldn't prove too great a task. (again another reason why I think the blackwater's contrived, if he intended to have his fleet ferry his men across the river why would a chain boon winch tower not be priority number 1) 

Simply put, had Imry stopped I think Stannis would simply tell him to go ahead with the attack as planned and likely chastise him for wasting time but to be honest my opinion has always been that the black water's a pretty hokey battle anyway, it's written as a big fun spectacle and a lot of it doesn't really make sense, but it's fun to play devil's advocate for Imry every now and then, who I think as much as a dick as he was basically just did what he was ordered to do and unfortunately met with an unexpected obstacle, remember they never even expected them to have so much wildfire. He was overconfident but an admiral that's too cautious and manages to avoid a threat nobody expected would be a bad admiral 99/100 times too. 

 

 

[Arthur Peres]

On 9/2/2019 at 9:38 AM, The hairy bear said:

That's what Davos thinks about Imry's performance before the Battle of the Blackwater:

Had he been admiral, he might have done it all differently. For a start, he would have sent a few of his swiftest ships to probe upriver and see what awaited them, instead of smashing in headlong. When he had suggested as much to Ser Imry, the Lord High Captain had thanked him courteously, but his eyes were not as polite. Who is this lowborn craven? those eyes asked. (...) With four times as many ships as the boy king, Ser Imry saw no need for caution or deceptive tactics.

Good points, Davos, might be able to avoid the total annihilation of the fleet.

I never read much about  navy warfare and navigation, the closest thing was One Piece Lol.

But could Imry be blamed for incidents that happened before the battle that delayed them or was just bad lucky and bad weather?

"They had lost two cogs to the rocks of Shipbreaker Bay on the very day they set sail, a poor way to begin. One of the Myrish galleys had foundered in the Straits of Tarth, and a storm had overtaken them as they were entering the Gullet, scattering the fleet across half the narrow sea. All but twelve ships had finally regrouped behind the sheltering spine of Massey’s Hook, in the calmer waters of Blackwater Bay, but not before they had lost considerable time."

[Universal Sword Donor]

18 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Simply put, had Imry stopped I think Stannis would simply tell him to go ahead with the attack as planned and likely chastise him for wasting time but to be honest my opinion has always been that the black water's a pretty hokey battle anyway, it's written as a big fun spectacle and a lot of it doesn't really make sense, but it's fun to play devil's advocate for Imry every now and then, who I think as much as a dick as he was basically just did what he was ordered to do and unfortunately met with an unexpected obstacle, remember they never even expected them to have so much wildfire. He was overconfident but an admiral that's too cautious and manages to avoid a threat nobody expected would be a bad admiral 99/100 times too.  

Literally none of that would have prevented Imry from sending some scout ships to verify the boom is functioning or in place at least. Stannis might have well said "fuck it" but that goes against basically every instinct he has as a methodical, proven commander. at the very least Stannis would want to guard against his entire navy being behind the chain (or vulnerable to an unknown fleet / force ) of ships preventing his non warships from ferrying boats outside the boom.

This entire situation *screams* trap and we know that he isn't prone to rash tactical / strategic decision (Fair Isle - a trap, not attacking the Celtigar island, foregoing Dreadfort for Deepwood). Imagine how much more effective his attack would have been if his forces had attacked the riverside gates as well as the Iron gate, which is about as close to the water but on the opposite side of the city.

[Lord Lannister]

Davos' main advantage and disadvantage would be he doesn't think conventionally. His lack of understanding and experience in warfare might haunt him, but it also might enable him to do something utterly unconventional to surprise an enemy.