Jon Snow and Julius Caesar

[Back in Black-Snow]

I was just watching a show on Netflix about the Roman Empire narrated by Sean Bean. When I came to the assasination of Julius Caesar, I couldn't help but think of Jon Snow and "For the Watch."

There are many parallels between the two, at least on a superficial level.

So I was thinking (and this is no way based on the text, and is largely fanciful), what if somehow Sansa (as the Lady of the Vale of Arryn and last living Stark) marries Aegon Targaryen after he takes the throne from Tommen/Cercei, producing a Targaryen heir that is named after Jon, Sansa's "bastard" brother/"cousin" and possibly brother/half-brother to Aegon Targaryen?

I know this really falls apart if you think about it too much, but what do you all think?

Is this remotely possible? That the Targaryen dynasty will be carried on in the Name of Jon Snow, the bastard "brother"/cousin of Aegon Targaryen's wife, instead of Aegon Targaryen himself?

Rip me open and tear out my guts, and piss on my dead corpse, but it seems like a good ending for me.

This is all after Jon is raised from the dead, teams up with Dany and defeats the White Walkers and dies (both of them) in the process. Leaving Sansa and Aegon to march on King's Landing, taking the Throne from the Lannisters. When Aegon is killed taking King's Landing, Sansa passes the Throne to their son (born after his death, or right before, of course), Aegon Snow. Thus continuing and combining of the Starks and Targaryens.

[Back in Black-Snow]

*A Song of Ice and Fire*

[Aline de Gavrillac]

I don't like this scenario that you invented.  What you present is a wish coming from a lot of Stark fans, which I am not.  Aegon, from what we know, is a son of Illyrio Mopatis and at the best, a Blackfyre.  The Blackfyres always come up short because they are the lesser branch of the Targaryen tree.   Sansa is the least deserving of the primary characters and the least able to wear a queen's crown.  

[nyser1]

It is quite possible that his assassination (Gaius Julius Caesar) was an inspiration for how Jon's "friends" betray him. However, one would most likely end the similarities between the two there.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

I don't like this scenario that you invented.  What you present is a wish coming from a lot of Stark fans, which I am not.  Aegon, from what we know, is a son of Illyrio Mopatis and at the best, a Blackfyre.  The Blackfyres always come up short because they are the lesser branch of the Targaryen tree.   Sansa is the least deserving of the primary characters and the least able to wear a queen's crown.  

Nope. From what we know Aegon is a Targaryen that was baby swapped. There are theories that suggest Aegon is a Blackfyre but this is most certainly not cannon. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 hours ago, nyser1 said:

It is quite possible that his assassination (Gaius Julius Caesar) was an inspiration for how Jon's "friends" betray him. However, one would most likely end the similarities between the two there.

That and maybe the aftermath. The allusions to Shakespear's Julius Caesar are too strong to ignore...

Just as Wick Whittlestick barely grazed Jon's neck with the first dagger, Casca was the first to cut Ceaser with a glancing cut to the neck. Just as Caesar caught Casca by the arm, Jon caught Wick's wrist. Just as Wick retreated and put his arms up, Casca was frighted and shouted for help. (That Jon understood this to mean that Wick was denying involvement was very curious. I'm not sure what to make of that other than he might have been mistaken.) That Bowen Marsh wept and claimed to be doing it for the Watch clearly alluded to Brutus...

"Let's kill him boldly, but not wrathfully; Let's carve him as a dish fit for the gods, Not hew him as a carcass fit for hounds:"

And Brutus expected his fellow Romans to be glad, going so far as to persuade his fellow conspirators to ignore Marcus Antonius. Given the strong allusion to the assassination of Julius Caesar I'm assuming that Bowen will expect his brothers to be glad. I don't think he has a plan. And much like Brutus was forced to flee Rome in short order I think Bowen is in a very, very tight spot, because Tormund is set to play the role of Marcus Antonius. I would expect him to whip the wildings into a frenzy against Marsh and the other conspirators. 

[The Sunland Lord]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

That and maybe the aftermath. The allusions to Shakespear's Julius Caesar are too strong to ignore...

Just as Wick Whittlestick barely grazed Jon's neck with the first dagger, Casca was the first to cut Ceaser with a glancing cut to the neck. Just as Caesar caught Casca by the arm, Jon caught Wick's wrist. Just as Wick retreated and put his arms up, Casca was frighted and shouted for help. (That Jon understood this to mean that Wick was denying involvement was very curious. I'm not sure what to make of that other than he might have been mistaken.) That Bowen Marsh wept and claimed to be doing it for the Watch clearly alluded to Brutus...

"Let's kill him boldly, but not wrathfully; Let's carve him as a dish fit for the gods, Not hew him as a carcass fit for hounds:"

And Brutus expected his fellow Romans to be glad, going so far as to persuade his fellow conspirators to ignore Marcus Antonius. Given the strong allusion to the assassination of Julius Caesar I'm assuming that Bowen will expect his brothers to be glad. I don't think he has a plan. And much like Brutus was forced to flee Rome in short order I think Bowen is in a very, very tight spot, because Tormund is set to play the role of Marcus Antonius. I would expect him to whip the wildings into a frenzy against Marsh and the other conspirators. 

So can we expect an epic speech by Tormund like that of Antonius? "Friends, freefolk, countrymen, lend me ye ears".

Btw I always thought that Robb had more in common with Caesar than Jon. 

[Victor Newman]

Inspiration it might be but those two guys were killed for different reasons.  Marsh killed Jon because he had no choice.  Jon had given up reason by that point and the only way to stop him from attacking the Boltons is by the point of a dagger.  

[Corvo the Crow]

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Nope. From what we know Aegon is a Targaryen that was baby swapped. There are theories that suggest Aegon is a Blackfyre but this is most certainly not cannon. 

For all we know Aegon could be the pisswater prince.

Targaryens’ looks are not uncommon in many of the free cities and is too common even among the commoners of Volantis and Lys. Not to mention all the descendants of any Valyrians that came to the Valyrian outposts with Targaryens or even before them and the seeds of the dragonseeds, who were/are themselves not few in numbers.

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

So can we expect an epic speech by Tormund like that of Antonius? "Friends, freefolk, countrymen, lend me ye ears".

Btw I always thought that Robb had more in common with Caesar than Jon. 

Tormund's more like to eat their ears. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

For all we know Aegon could be the pisswater prince.

Targaryens’ looks are not uncommon in many of the free cities and is too common even among the commoners of Volantis and Lys. Not to mention all the descendants of any Valyrians that came to the Valyrian outposts with Targaryens or even before them and the seeds of the dragonseeds, who were/are themselves not few in numbers.

Well sure, anyone could be anyone. But my comment was to the poster that said "from what we know Aegon is a Blackfyre" which isn't true. As far as we know Aegon is a Targaryen. That's how he is presented to us. He may be someone else but we certainly don't know it. 

[James West]

One can find similarities if he looks hard enough.  My opinion.  Brutus was a friend of Julius.  Bowen was not a friend of Jon's.  Brutus personally betrayed Julius.  Bowen Marsh didn't betray Jon because he was only doing his job.  Bowen was acting in his professional capacity and did his sworn duty to protect the realm of man against an ailing lord commander.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Al Czervik said:

One can find similarities if he looks hard enough.  My opinion.  Brutus was a friend of Julius.  Bowen was not a friend of Jon's.  Brutus personally betrayed Julius.  Bowen Marsh didn't betray Jon because he was only doing his job.  Bowen was acting in his professional capacity and did his sworn duty to protect the realm of man against an ailing lord commander.  

I'm trying my very best to not turn this into another Jon vs Bowen thread so I'll just say this:

 

No. 

[The Sunland Lord]

2 hours ago, Al Czervik said:

One can find similarities if he looks hard enough.  My opinion.  Brutus was a friend of Julius.  Bowen was not a friend of Jon's.  Brutus personally betrayed Julius.  Bowen Marsh didn't betray Jon because he was only doing his job.  Bowen was acting in his professional capacity and did his sworn duty to protect the realm of man against an ailing lord commander.  

Brutus also thought he was doing his job, which was saving the Republic, just like Bowen (stupidly) thinks he is saving the Realm.

Brutus thought that Rome needed him to save her. But this was just paranoia. It was Brutus who destroyed the Republic.

Brutus and Cassius got their asses handed to them by Antonius and Octavius on Philippi and now really the Republic was done for. It's just ironic how big a damage the messianic complex can do. If Caesar stayed in power, the Republic might have stood.

Now Bowen thinks that he is some kind of Messiah who will save the Realm. While in fact the Realm can't be saved by an obscure character that is Bowen.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Al Czervik said:

One can find similarities if he looks hard enough.  My opinion.  Brutus was a friend of Julius.  Bowen was not a friend of Jon's.  Brutus personally betrayed Julius.  

Good points. 

[teej6]

3 hours ago, Al Czervik said:

Bowen was acting in his professional capacity and did his sworn duty to protect the realm of man against an ailing lord commander.  

Bowen Marsh is an idiot who’s soon going to be very dead. He’s a bean counter with no other skill — a short-sighted bigoted bureaucrat. Please explain what “professional capacity” gives him the right to assassinate the LC? Tell me where in the books does it state or show that you can kill the LC if you disagree with him. Bowen Marsh and his cronies are no better than the mutineers at Craster’s. If he was such a paragon, he should have written to Eastwatch, Shadow Tower, and rallied the men at Castle Black instead of stabbing the LC in the cover of dark with a few conspirators. Bowen Marsh is nothing but a coward and a mutineer and I can’t wait for the next book to see him get his dues.

[Back in Black-Snow]

I have read all your thoughts, and I enjoyed reading all of them. Please keep it coming.

I apologize that I haven't been a bigger part of the conversation. Ususally when I start a new thread, I tend to like to see if it will "take off" or not before I weigh in. But for my work I'm on call 24-7 and havent had the chance to weigh in yet. But to some extent, I agree with everyone who has commented so far (to some extent- before I am taken out of context).

Again, thank you all for commenting, and please keep discussing this.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

5 hours ago, Travis said:

I have read all your thoughts, and I enjoyed reading all of them. Please keep it coming.

I apologize that I haven't been a bigger part of the conversation. Ususally when I start a new thread, I tend to like to see if it will "take off" or not before I weigh in. But for my work I'm on call 24-7 and havent had the chance to weigh in yet. But to some extent, I agree with everyone who has commented so far (to some extent- before I am taken out of context).

Again, thank you all for commenting, and please keep discussing this.

I too have read the comments before mine.  I doubt there's more to add.  You either like Bowen or you don't.  I think he did the right thing when he stabbed Jon Snow.  I can't make the same claim for Brutus.  

[Hodor the Articulate]

I'm confused. Who are Sansa and fAegon supposed to parallel? Or are they just a rando couple to produce Jon's "heir", who for some reason adopts a bastard surname but not Jon's first name?

[kissdbyfire]

On 8/19/2019 at 11:53 PM, Al Czervik said:

One can find similarities if he looks hard enough.  My opinion.  Brutus was a friend of Julius.  Bowen was not a friend of Jon's.  Brutus personally betrayed Julius.  Bowen Marsh didn't betray Jon because he was only doing his job.  Bowen was acting in his professional capacity and did his sworn duty to protect the realm of man against an ailing lord commander.  

His "job" as a member of a military order is to obey his commanding officers, not betray and stab them because he didn't like them or their orders.