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Rose of Red Lake

Timett will steal Alayne

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5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I very much take issue with this.  We have seen no indication in her POV that she has any interest in harming Robert.  On the contrary, she seems intent on making him stronger and more confident.  As for taking power, I see no interest on her part in power for its own sake.  She has seen what lust for power does to a person (Cersei and Joffrey), and I don't think wants to go there.  As for Harry, I am skeptical that she has any real interest in marrying him (or anyone else, at this point).

She is complicit in the poisoning plot already. I don't think she will actually want to kill Robert, but she already rationalized endangering his life for short term goals. I don't expect her to become a vile poisoner - merely someone who follows the path she is on where it leads her.

Nobody said anything about power for its own sake ... power can be a means to an end. To avenge herself on Cersei, say. To restore House Stark to its former glory. To finally show the people who pushed her around what she can do. To get Winterfell back on her terms. And so on.

Sansa is one of the few characters who actually could use power as a means to an end, not for its own sake.

And it is quite clear that her picking up on Littlefinger's methods is preparing her to both understand politics and power plays as well as to exert power in a similar fashion. She is really good at playing the lady/queen and Littlefinger's whole subtle approach to power is really ideal for somebody like Sansa. She could really become a great player if she walks in his footsteps. And, no, this doesn't mean she also has to become a psychopath.

5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The rest I pretty much agree with you on.  Any kidnapping plot with Timmett would be a waste of time.   Her story is learning how to become a political player - but, unlike Baelish,Ccersei, etc. - one with a conscience; and then using that knowledge to destroy Littlefinger once she discovers his actions and true nature.  His mistake will be assuming that she is as uncaring of the welfare of others as he is.  That will lead to a split and his eventual doom.

I'd not count on Sansa destroying Littlefinger - there are others with better claims, most notably Sansa's undead mother. But Tyrion, too. It is a standard fan fantasy that Sansa will somehow magically discover Littlefinger's evil deeds and then cause his downfall, etc. But if we look realistically at this guy then he is so well-prepared that he always has an exit strategy. I can see Sansa unmasking Littlefinger or thwarting his ultimate plans to rule Westeros, but I don't see her destroying him - or at least not before he moves from 'secret villain' to 'public/unhinged villain'.

There is infinite narrative potential in him making common cause with Euron/Cersei, say, when he no longer can play the nice-guy routine.

And Sansa's immediate future seems to be rather obvious to me - get the Vale to declare for Aegon or turn against the Lannisters in his name. That is going to free Sansa from all the chains that bind her right now. Once Tommen is gone (or they turn on him) she can be herself again, with the nominal support of a new King on the Iron Throne she could be restored to Winterfell and the North and see all the enemies of her family destroyed.

And it is not difficult to predict where exactly Littlefinger's and Sansa's agendas and goals might differ in all that. In fact, I can already see her outmaneuvering Littlefinger by getting the Vale to declare for Aegon. She could do that by manipulating Harry and the others or, if one wants her in a more active role, by publicly revealing her true identity during one of the tourney feasts, and urging the assembled brave men to finally get off their asses and do something. She could both shame them into action by pointing out that their cowardice got her brother and mother killed as well as appeal to their knightly honor to defend the damsel in distress - once she reveals herself it is clear that Tommen/the Lannisters will eventually come for her (after all, Sansa Stark stands accused of regicide). And the chances are very slim that - especially the young knights and lords - just shrug off something like that. They will fall over themselves to offer Sansa Stark their swords. She could a much greater scene then Robb ever did when he was proclaimed king - without Sansa actually being offered a crown there.

And if the Young Falcon (Harry) is on board with her plan nobody would be able to stop them.

28 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Arya and Bran's "educators" also aren't physically molesting them. I think she needs to get away from him ASAP, and turn the tables by escaping. I'd rather have her find any way to escape LF creeping on her and as I explained, Timmett wouldn't actually harm her. 

But he would not help her plot. She would be stuck with a man who cannot offer her anything of substance. And I'm not only talking about things he cannot offer Sansa the person but also Sansa the fictional character. Any abduction scenario involving Sansa would be a completely pointless and nonsensical plot at this point.

And Sansa is not a real person. Many characters in those books are abused or harmed or have to deal with unwanted attention - this didn't cause the author to not write such stories. And in comparison to others Littlefinger's advances are relatively mild - and might actually not need to a rape.

In fact, the way things stand right now I actually could see Sansa mastering Littlefinger by really turning the table on him - taking the initiative to seduce him at a point when he is not expecting this. The way to defeat Littlefinger is to actually make him forget that Sansa is also a pawn to him. If Sansa could make those parts of his personality win who want her as his daughter and his lover/husband she would become the one ruling him, not the other way around, because he would finally start doing things to actually please her.

28 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think you're not reading the storyline as abuser-victim who has been isolated and controlled. This storyline isn't good for Sansa. Her power is not equal to his right now, and she doesn't have "friends" in the Vale except for SR who is a little kid. You're not picking up on Myranda's jealousy and rivalry, or how Harry parallels Robert/Lyanna, or how her status as a bastard limits what she can do, or how LF can blackmail her for killing Lysa or SR. Sansa can manipulate LF better when she has people around her she knows and trusts. If not, LF will continue to draw up plans for how she'll be used, and Sansa will go along because she thinks she has no other choice. She's had no say in any of his plans and doesn't have the confidence right now to reject them. I think she needs a shock to the system. Like an opportunity to escape. 

The crucial thing is that she reveals her true identity - then she can come into her own in the Vale. Harry is a joke in comparison to her. He is descended from an Arryn on his mother's side, but his father was a nobody, and he must know this. Sansa, on the other hand, is the scion of two of the noblest families in the Realm, the former betrothed of a king.

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I've been thinking this exact thing for a while now!

We are constantly told that the Burned Men have better weapons now and that they're getting more brave and targeting more and stronger holdfasts. I don't think GRRM would be telling us this information if it won't become relevant later.

Now, whether Sansa will marry Timett or he will help her in some way or anything else, we will have to see.

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Timett is likely there for a reason, another pawn for her to play, maybe the first show of leveraging her marriage for gain. It would be somewhat symbolic, her being able to manipulate the mountain clans the same as Tyrion, showing she is at least his equal in the game of thrones. But there needs not be a kidnapping for the two to interact, and the whole Sansa getting kidnapped thing that Sansa fans seem to love in all its concoctions has never been shown to be grounded in anything. It seems more a fantasy fans pin their hopes on in the desire that Sansa gets away from LF immediately.

Her arc is playing Tyrion into power and by way of being able to manipulate him to her will, having that power for herself. She will step out from under Littlefinger to stand over Tyrion, her training run ending and her big league beginning. The LF story plays out in the Vale, her training ground, where is set up a little game of thrones with all the political pieces delicately poised, and it finishes at the showcase location, the Eyrie.

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12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That misses the whole thing about Bronn being able to take out Ser Vardis. These knights are fighting gallantly for glory in a sports game while the mountain clans are fighting for real. 

Bronn picked a fight on his terms because he could (and wasn't weighed down by armor). The tournament held at the Bloody Gate is, uh, not gonna be as vulnerable as people marching through a mountain pass.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She is complicit in the poisoning plot already. I don't think she will actually want to kill Robert, but she already rationalized endangering his life for short term goals. I don't expect her to become a vile poisoner - merely someone who follows the path she is on where it leads her.

Nobody said anything about power for its own sake ... power can be a means to an end. To avenge herself on Cersei, say. To restore House Stark to its former glory. To finally show the people who pushed her around what she can do. To get Winterfell back on her terms. And so on.

Sansa is one of the few characters who actually could use power as a means to an end, not for its own sake.

And it is quite clear that her picking up on Littlefinger's methods is preparing her to both understand politics and power plays as well as to exert power in a similar fashion. She is really good at playing the lady/queen and Littlefinger's whole subtle approach to power is really ideal for somebody like Sansa. She could really become a great player if she walks in his footsteps. And, no, this doesn't mean she also has to become a psychopath.

I wouldn't even categorize it as short term goals. She literally thinks it could easily be Robert's life or her life. Don't have the ebooks in front of me, but her conversations (and LFs) with the Maester make it pretty clear she knows what's happening to SR but it matters less than her survival

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7 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Bronn picked a fight on his terms because he could (and wasn't weighed down by armor). The tournament held at the Bloody Gate is, uh, not gonna be as vulnerable as people marching through a mountain pass.

The tourney is not at the Bloody Gate but at the Gates of the Moon - which are, essentially, the very heart of the Vale of Arryn. The idea that people are about to be surprised or attacked there is not very likely.

I'm not entirely dismissing the idea that the clansmen might become a danger for the Vale in the future - but only after the bulk of the Vale's strength has left the Vale to fight elsewhere in Westeros. If, say, Sansa/Harry and/or Littlefinger have gotten the Vale to fight for Aegon then Tyrion could later activate/use his clansmen buddies to strike at the Vale. But just some good weapons is not going to change the power dynamic there - especially not while the clans are not united under a single leader (and Shagga and his gang are still in the Kingswood). If Tyrion flies with a dragon into the Mountains of the Moon he could make them his in a heartbeat. But until then we cannot expect much from them aside from usual (and likely ever more desperate) raiding for survival as the cruel winter advances...

7 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I wouldn't even categorize it as short term goals. She literally thinks it could easily be Robert's life or her life. Don't have the ebooks in front of me, but her conversations (and LFs) with the Maester make it pretty clear she knows what's happening to SR but it matters less than her survival

The short term goals were that Robert behaves, is managable, and doesn't embarrass the Lord Protector or his daughter. We get that back in AFfC where Robert has to be drugged to be able to receive various dignitaries and to be able to travel down the Giant's Lance.

But you certainly are right that Sansa has adopted Littlefinger's own rationale in the matter - that Robert is a weak and sickly child who is going to die early, anyway, that it is more important for them to secure their own survival and well-being than the longterm survival and well-being of the boy lord they are technically serving, etc. This is very evident in her last conversation with Maester Colemon on the matter where she actually insists that he be given another dose, either not understanding or not caring how great a risk this is at this point. When Colemon objects she tells him to take the matter up with her father - that's not the talk of a person who prioritizes the life of her cousin.

The alert reader does realize that sweetsleep accumulates in the body - whether Sansa exactly understands what this means isn't clear. I'd not be surprised if Robert is going to die in his sleep early in TWoW, after Sansa gave him another dose of his sweetmilk for this or that arbitrary reason.

Littlefinger has set up this whole thing rather brilliantly, converting a potential lethal poison into a tool his staff can use to manage the boy lord who is most of the time either a tyrant or a nuisance. The very nature of the dynamic there is going to mean they will use it more and more, and Sansa is actually one of the people pushing for this kind of solution.

Whether she understands that she is killing her cousin this way and doesn't really care or whether she actually underestimates the risk isn't clear at this point. I guess we'll only get her thoughts on the matter when she is confronted with Robert's cold corpse.

But considering that this will mean that she will control both Harry and the Vale thereafter I very much doubt she will have (m)any second thoughts. She never liked Robert Arryn in the first place.

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17 hours ago, Nevets said:

The rest I pretty much agree with you on.  Any kidnapping plot with Timmett would be a waste of time.   Her story is learning how to become a political player - but, unlike Baelish,Ccersei, etc. - one with a conscience; and then using that knowledge to destroy Littlefinger once she discovers his actions and true nature.  His mistake will be assuming that she is as uncaring of the welfare of others as he is.  That will lead to a split and his eventual doom.

Yep to the waste of time. George is already having trouble trying to get everything on page that he needs to do to wrap up most of the plot threads he's created. Sansa's story has also been criticized for not allowing her enough agency (although not as bad as the show), and she's finally starting to gain some again.

A plot where she gets kidnapped and taken to the wilderness adds nothing to Sansa's story or character development, wastes precious time (book pages), and turns her back into Plot McGuffin for other characters to deal with. No thanks.

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20 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think something is wrong with Myranda and I don't put her in the "friend" box. She is very much another Margaery, who also pretended to be Sansa's friend. She keeps harping about how Alayne stole "her Harry." Myranda is also making comparisons between her boobs and Sansa's, and saying hers are better. Typical female rivalry stuff. Myranda also says, "well maybe I'LL marry the Lord Protector!" Also a rivalry statement. That's a typical one-up on Alayne and would make Myranda her mother in law. Good for Myranda, bad for Sansa.

I agree Yohn Royce will help, but I think Sansa will escape LF somewhere in Winds. Mainly because, I think LF is going to sexually assault her and she will be looking for an opportunity to leave after that. Enter, Timett, Schadrich or whoever--at that point I don't care just get her away from him. 

*sigh* 

I will never understand this.

If Olenna didn't tell, and Marg didn't tell who blabbed the Willas plot to the Lannisters? I would've dropped Sansa like a bad habit too. At best, she can't keep a secret. At worst, she's a Lannister spy. Either way I wouldn't tolerate that nonsense near me.

Back on topic, I highly doubt she will be kidnapped. But I also don't buy the Sansa political player angle. Well I guess it depends on how it works.

Sansa has a habit of not realizing how she looks/sounds in certain situations which has happened enough: (Hands tourney, plea for Ned, KG beating, Queens ballroom during siege, UnKiss, both weddings, Winterfell snow-castle, Lying to Bronze Yohn) That there should be a pay off with that.

I cant see Sansa really outmaneuvering anybody in the game but:

Quote

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.

 

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Littlefinger has set up this whole thing rather brilliantly, converting a potential lethal poison into a tool his staff can use to manage the boy lord who is most of the time either a tyrant or a nuisance. The very nature of the dynamic there is going to mean they will use it more and more, and Sansa is actually one of the people pushing for this kind of solution.

Whether she understands that she is killing her cousin this way and doesn't really care or whether she actually underestimates the risk isn't clear at this point. I guess we'll only get her thoughts on the matter when she is confronted with Robert's cold corpse.

 But considering that this will mean that she will control both Harry and the Vale thereafter I very much doubt she will have (m)any second thoughts. She never liked Robert Arryn in the first place.

It's pretty clear to her:

"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."
"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."
"I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep . . . you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?"
"He was sniffling," Alayne admitted, "but I saw no blood."
 
Colemon literally tells her that it doesn't leave the body and it causes nose bleeds. She's sniffed out peter's games without much guidance (and recognizes that he's not someone to be trusted) but Colemon is being truthful by looking out for SR, which tells herself earlier in the chapter.
 
 

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On 8/21/2019 at 3:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

And Sansa is not a real person. Many characters in those books are abused or harmed or have to deal with unwanted attention - this didn't cause the author to not write such stories. And in comparison to others Littlefinger's advances are relatively mild - and might actually not need to a rape.

LF’s molestation will probably escalate to forced fellatio. There is some debate on a particular passage in an Arya chapter that could foreshadow this. What then? I don’t view LF’s interactions with her as character building moments. If he was THAT important to her “development “ the author wouldn’t have written him this way. Otherwise you get into the typical trope where women’s abuse is seen as helpful, which is a debauched way of writing “female empowerment.” 

Seductive Sex kitten Sansa is pretty far fetched, I don’t subscribe to that theory. This isn’t any part of her characterization. 

Not that I like a kidnapping, but I’m pro any storyline that gets her away from LF because he is touching her in grossly inappropriate ways, and I don’t think Sansa has a way to make him stop unless someone physically removes her from his presence. I don’t want to read more scenes where Peter asks Alayne to sit on his lap and kiss him while he pontificates about the game of thrones. 

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

LF’s molestation will probably escalate to forced fellatio. There is some debate on a particular passage in an Arya chapter that could foreshadow this. What then? I don’t view LF’s interactions with her as character building moments. If he was THAT important to her “development “ the author wouldn’t have written him this way. Otherwise you get into the typical trope where women’s abuse is seen as helpful, which is a debauched way of writing “female empowerment.” 

Sorry, but here your own fantasies seem to be getting the better of yourself. George has long ago stated that he is never going to write a rape scene in POV - and while there could be some sort of 'forced fellatio scene' offscreen I think it is quite clear that Littlefinger actually does not want to rape Sansa.

The part of him that desires Sansa sexually (which is only a third of his personality, as per George - a part sees her as a pawn, a part sees her as his actual daughter, the one he and Cat should have had, and another part desires her sexual as a better and improved Catelyn) doesn't seem to be inclined to rush things. If he wanted her to be his sex bunny he could have long ago given her the Jeyne Poole treatment. I cannot see him suddenly raping Sansa or forcing him on her in a way that obliterates their fake father-daughter-relationship. The kisses they have are still within the framework of the affections that are proper between children and parents (the looks Littlefinger gives Sansa are not).

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

Seductive Sex kitten Sansa is pretty far fetched, I don’t subscribe to that theory. This isn’t any part of her characterization.

Well, she is growing up. I also never thought it would be part of Arya's story to pose as a child prostitute to seduce and eventually murder a man. Yet that's what she did. Sansa finally realizing that her beauty properly used can her help manipulate and control people (especially men) certainly should be part of her arc - and it already is. It is part of her managing of Lord Robert, her future managing of Harry the Heir, and already her managing of Littlefinger - who is already fooled by Sansa when she uses the same sweet lies he tells others to fool him. Pretending that she, Sansa, actually loves Littlefinger would be the next step. And since that is clearly one of Littlefinger's greatest desires Sansa controlling him in this fashion would give her a lot of power. If something is going to allow a character to mess with Littlefinger it is going to be when the man is drunken with love and happiness. That's when he might make some mistakes, mistakes others could also exploit.

It doesn't really have to start with sex (and doesn't really need to include sex) - it would be enough if she told Littlefinger that she is actually in love with him now and that she (eventually) wants to marry and live with him like her mother should have done. That could be enough, although some sort of erotic or sex scene with Sansa as the active part - Sansa the one initiating the entire thing - could also be very powerful.

I mean, imagine the tourney at the Gates of the Moon, and we have the Aegon revelation there, and Sansa either directly or indirectly (through Harry) has the Vale lords and knights declare for Aegon and to assemble an army to crush the Lannisters. Afterwards, in private, Littlefinger is furious because Sansa acted without his knowledge/consent and, perhaps, even dared to real her true identity without consulting with him first ... and then she completely turns the table on him by telling him that she did all of them for them. Because she was in love with her dear dad Petyr and this was actually her design to ensure that they could be together in the future ... and eventually rule the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros as king and queen.

That would be a really powerful scene, a moment where Sansa could truly be a plotter and a person with agency, somebody who controls events, who as a goal and a plan of her own. And Littlefinger would suspect nothing there ... because something like that should be, more or less, his heart's desire.

And this is most definitely not an unlikely or impossible scenario at this point. All she needs to pull something along those lines is an audience. And she has that now with the people who attend the tourney.

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5 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

I will never understand this.

If Olenna didn't tell, and Marg didn't tell who blabbed the Willas plot to the Lannisters? I would've dropped Sansa like a bad habit too. At best, she can't keep a secret. At worst, she's a Lannister spy. Either way I wouldn't tolerate that nonsense near me.

Maybe they should clarify that it’s a secret then? And they just up and arranged a marriage for her, like the Lannister’s for a power grab. Not exactly the sincerest motives. These aren’t real relationships that are being formed and Myranda is more of the same. At least fault Sansa for her naivety for how she is being used, not her “inability to keep a secret” that she didn’t even know was supposed to be a secret.

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Colemon literally tells her that it doesn't leave the body and it causes nose bleeds. She's sniffed out peter's games without much guidance (and recognizes that he's not someone to be trusted) but Colemon is being truthful by looking out for SR, which tells herself earlier in the chapter.

Nosebleeds? Nobody would really care about that. Nosebleed is better than falling off a mountain. He should have taken more time to explain. He’s the medical professional. Sansa isn’t a pharmacist.

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On 8/21/2019 at 3:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

The crucial thing is that she reveals her true identity - then she can come into her own in the Vale. Harry is a joke in comparison to her. He is descended from an Arryn on his mother's side, but his father was a nobody, and he must know this. Sansa, on the other hand, is the scion of two of the noblest families in the Realm, the former betrothed of a king.

Just revealing herself as the AMAZING SANSA and everyone bows in awe is cheesy, it’s like something Dany would do in Essos. I like the idea of her winning an army not JUST through her name, but through the love she displays to SR. He’s devoted to her because she mothers him, and he would do anything for her even as a bastard. Winning through kindness rather than fear or birthright is a big part of her arc. Fear and birthright usually only have short term benefits for characters, if at all.

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18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Maybe they should clarify that it’s a secret then? And they just up and arranged a marriage for her, like the Lannister’s for a power grab. Not exactly the sincerest motives. These aren’t real relationships that are being formed and Myranda is more of the same. At least fault Sansa for her naivety for how she is being used, not her “inability to keep a secret” that she didn’t even know was supposed to be a secret.

Nosebleeds? Nobody would really care about that. Nosebleed is better than falling off a mountain. He should have taken more time to explain. He’s the medical professional. Sansa isn’t a pharmacist.

I'm not going to post the whole scene but it's obviously very clandestine.

Quote

Lady Olenna squirmed forward. “Even when I was a girl younger than you, it was well known
that in the Red Keep the very walls have ears. Well, they will be the better for a song, and
meanwhile we girls shall speak freely.”

...

“But the queen,” Sansa went on, “she won’t let me go...”
“She will. Without Highgarden, the Lannisters have no hope of keeping Joffrey on his throne. If
my son the lord oaf asks, she will have no choice but to grant his request.”
“Will he?” asked Sansa. “Will he ask?”
Lady Olenna frowned. “I see no need to give him a choice. Of course, he has no hint of our true
purpose.”

I mean Dontos says that because he works for Littlefinger. He's pretty clearly lying. Robb is still alive and the Tyrell's don't know the Red Wedding is about to go down, so the claim is dodgy. Besides Willas will inherit Highgarden, what's the play?

Get Sansa knocked up, before Robb knocks up his Frey, so you can battle through Robb's kingdom and Moat Cailin just to get North, than drive out the Ironborn, than deal with Boltons and other truculent lords just to sit your arse in an inferior castle that could be legally taken away with a stroke of a pen...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

I'm not going to post the whole scene but it's obviously very clandestine.

That queue to Butterbumps was used to pry info from Sansa about Joffrey. She didn’t know that she would be entering a completely different convo, their plans to marry her off. If their own plan is to be Top Secret, they should tell her that. She doesn’t realize that her marriage prospect is “important intel” because she doesn’t know what’s happening to her half the time. Also, Sansa’s consent is not really present, because they sprung it on her, they offered a magical dream about HG, and she’s looking for any way out of there. They are romanticizing it, intentionally, to obfuscate what’s really going on, which is her being pawned again. It’s backwards to her development because she doesn’t see how things actually are. Which is partly her naivety and partly their manipulation. Just because Dontos is trying to delay that marriage doesn’t mean he’s wrong.

1 hour ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Besides Willas will inherit Highgarden, what's the play?

I mean there has to be some motive. Maybe because their claim to Highgarden is “a bit dodgy” as Olenna says herself? That should have been a warning sign to Sansa. Marrying into an ancient house would secure their reputation as a legitimate noble family. It’s a soft power move, which Tywin stole—but did it way worse and hamfisted than the Tyrells. Maybe they also knew Robb was doomed and wanted to act fast. You think they genuinely wanted to make Sansa’s dreams come true, and that’s it? 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Maybe they should clarify that it’s a secret then? And they just up and arranged a marriage for her, like the Lannister’s for a power grab. Not exactly the sincerest motives. These aren’t real relationships that are being formed and Myranda is more of the same. At least fault Sansa for her naivety for how she is being used, not her “inability to keep a secret” that she didn’t even know was supposed to be a secret.

Nosebleeds? Nobody would really care about that. Nosebleed is better than falling off a mountain. He should have taken more time to explain. He’s the medical professional. Sansa isn’t a pharmacist.

Nobody except the guy who knows best 

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I cannot see him suddenly raping Sansa or forcing him on her in a way that obliterates their fake father-daughter-relationship. The kisses they have are still within the framework of the affections that are proper between children and parents (the looks Littlefinger gives Sansa are not).

“platonic” father daughter kisses for a 13 year old?? It’s already crossed a line. Are you sure you want to defend that. I’m bracing myself for a DARK book. Fetishes aren’t just thrown in for people to act “rationally” about them. It’s possible he’ll slip up when it comes to his own protege. He’s already grooming her politically and sexually, which is gross as fuck. Whatever lessons are not worth the creeping molestation that, if GRRM is being realistic, only gets worse in these cases. I don’t even want him to “mildly” molest her (gag). Either way, I hope she gets the hell away from him before it gets worse and that’s why I think she’s primed for leaving.

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10 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Just revealing herself as the AMAZING SANSA and everyone bows in awe is cheesy, it’s like something Dany would do in Essos. I like the idea of her winning an army not JUST through her name, but through the love she displays to SR. He’s devoted to her because she mothers him, and he would do anything for her even as a bastard. Winning through kindness rather than fear or birthright is a big part of her arc. Fear and birthright usually only have short term benefits for characters, if at all.

This is not AMAZING SANSA, it is merely Sansa Stark, daughter of Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully, no longer Alayne Stone.

Sansa is a beautiful girl on the cusp of womanhood, likely to become one of the most beautiful women of her generation. She is not going to need tantrum or dragons to enthrall (young) men - all she needs is an audience and the right moment to tell her story.

Your comparison between Harry and Robert is way off in this regard. Yes, Harrold Hardyng is sleeping around, but as I laid out he is a NOBODY on his father's side. As the presumptive heir of the Vale - a temporal position he will only have until Lord Robert has children of his own (then he will descend rather quickly into obscurity) which nevertheless got into his head - he resents the fact that he is supposed to marry the bastard of a man who, despite being Lord of Harrenhal and Lord Protector of the Vale, still is of very low birth.

But this will COMPLETELY CHANGE once Harry realizes who Alayne actually is. Then Sansa Stark will become the PERFECT WIFE to him, a wife who, thanks to Littlefinger's teachings, will definitely control every aspect of their relationship. It is also not exactly a coincidence, one assumes, that so many Waynwoods are there at the tourney - some or all of those Waynwoods might be Stark cousins through the female line (one of Lady Jocelyn Stark's daughters by Benedict Royce married a Waynwood).

Sansa doesn't give a damn about Robert Arryn. She doesn't like his attitude, his groping, him treating her essentially as a replacement mother/Lysa, or him wanting to sleep in her bed. And as we pointed out already - she is complicit in his poisoning already and actually one of the people pushing for a continuation of the 'sweetmilk approach' to Lord Robert. Even if she had a change of heart in the future (which is not indicated nor very likely because Robert wouldn't have any symptoms causing her to change her mind - he would simply die peacefully in his sleep one night) she would still share a good chunk of the blame for his murder.

Even if this were different - Lord Robert is a preteen boy. He will never do anything to influence Vale or Westerosi policy. He is a pawn and he will be nothing else during this series. If he didn't die (which is very unlikely) the series would have to jump about a decade into the future to make him a man grown - and considering his ugly character he would likely be about as worse as Joffrey at that time.

And considering that nearly all characters having a lordship or a throne in those books have those powers because of their birthrights it is rather obvious that birthright is one of the crucial legal principles in this setting. Nobody gets anything because of merit, they get it because it is their birthright or because they are strong enough to take it and hold on to it until it becomes the birthright of their children or grandchildren. If the Starks ever get back Winterfell and the North it will be because both is their birthright - and because they are strong enough to retake it or convince other people to help them retake it.

9 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I mean there has to be some motive. Maybe because their claim to Highgarden is “a bit dodgy” as Olenna says herself? That should have been a warning sign to Sansa. Marrying into an ancient house would secure their reputation as a legitimate noble family. It’s a soft power move, which Tywin stole—but did it way worse and hamfisted than the Tyrells. Maybe they also knew Robb was doomed and wanted to act fast. You think they genuinely wanted to make Sansa’s dreams come true, and that’s it? 

The Tyrells are well-established as the ruling family of the Reach during the main series. They just destroyed the Florents, they don't need Sansa to look more noble. But it is quite clear that Sansa is the presumptive heir of the doomed King Robb, so by securing her they certainly secure a claim to Winterfell and the North. And that means both power and prestige. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that Robb is a dead man walking after the Blackwater. They would have dealt with him somehow, even if there hadn't been a Red Wedding.

10 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Timett is a small player.  The person of interest in Sansa's line is Shadrich.  

There are also stupid fan fantasies that Shadrich is going to abduct Sansa. They are equally nonsensical as are all stupid fantasies about an abducted Sansa. However, Shadrich as a possible former little mouse and a knife/informer Varys placed in Littlefinger's court certainly can take steps to influence events in the Vale into a Varys/Aegon favorable direction - possible by pointing out to Alayne that a Targaryen king on the Iron Throne could really help her position. He could also raise Sansa's suspicions about Littlefinger or give her actual evidence pointing to his involvement in certain things (arrest and execution of Ned, say).

The fact that Shadrich is Varys' agent is subtly implied in the new Alayne chapter when Sansa enters Littlefinger's study and the window is open and the papers on his desk seem to be in disorder due to the wind - it was the old modus operandi of Varys' little mice back in Pentos to climb through windows and chimneys to go through the papers of a target and memorize the contents to gain knowledge to blackmail or exploit them.

And it is quite clear that a Vale entering the war on Aegon's side - or at least openly opposing/attacking the Lannisters/King Tommen - would be very much in Varys' interest at this point. Not to mention that Haldon mentioning the Vale as a likely neutral faction in the War of the Five Kings when he goes through the papers at Griffin's Roost implies that they will attempt to secure the allegiance of the Arryns sooner rather than later.

9 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

“platonic” father daughter kisses for a 13 year old?? It’s already crossed a line. Are you sure you want to defend that. I’m bracing myself for a DARK book. Fetishes aren’t just thrown in for people to act “rationally” about them. It’s possible he’ll slip up when it comes to his own protege. He’s already grooming her politically and sexually, which is gross as fuck. Whatever lessons are not worth the creeping molestation that, if GRRM is being realistic, only gets worse in these cases. I don’t even want him to “mildly” molest her (gag). Either way, I hope she gets the hell away from him before it gets worse and that’s why I think she’s primed for leaving.

I don't know what kind of behavior is appropriate between father and daughter in this world. It is clear that Sansa doesn't like the whole thing - but that's because Littlefinger is not actually her father.

And we all get that you don't like this plot - which is irrelevant to what plot there's going to be. I was disgusted by the Dany-Drogo love story, but that didn't change it, did it? The point remains that Sansa is at the right place right now to actually make a difference and come into her own - and she definitely owes Littlefinger for that. Not to mention that the entire Harry plot makes it actually more likely he is not exactly all that keen to get under her gown - after all, he essentially urges her to enthrall or even seduce another man. If he was as obsessed with Sansa as you apparently believe he is he would have acted more like Marillion.

And this is not really a fetish. A fetish an item or sexual practice that really gets you (exclusively) going, it is not you having a thing for the daughter of your dead love (and Littlefinger honestly believes Catelyn was his love, once). Littlefinger's mind is pretty warped, but it was, at least in all things Cat and Sansa, actually warped by love. The man he is to today was shaped by a tragic love triangle - which is what makes his story compelling and interesting. Without his background - which George basically stole from his own character Arkin Ruark from Dying of the Light - Littlefinger wouldn't be interesting at all.

If you put yourself in Littlefinger's shoes for a moment it is quite clear he cannot but fall in love with/desire Sansa. That's who he is.

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