Dany and child murder

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

It would have been considered unusual for a husband to have the right to hand his wife over to his close friends for sex.  Dany got lucky.  If Drogo had beaten her, mated her to his dogs, hanged her if he got tired of her, she'd have had no redress.

I haven't read the books in a long time, and don't intend to reread them unless GRRM finishes the series, so I don't remember anything about mating to dogs or that he could kill her on a whim, wouldn't he have to send  her to the Dosh Kaleen? I vaguely remember something about the wife or wives, since Khals can have more than one wife, sharing her/them with the bloodriders and of course Dany thinking that her life could have been much worse if Drogo was a different kind of man, but none of that makes her a slave.  She has both rights and privileges as well as her own slaves to command, she could arguably be the 2nd most powerful person behind the Khal, and surely would be the most powerful after the Khal and his own bloodriders, as we saw in GOT where various Dothraki do her bidding even when the disagree w./her.  But we can agree to disagree here.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

A 'slave' with handmaidens to bath her and dress her?  People who cooked her food, set up her tent, took care of her horse and took oaths to protect her life?  Sorry, no this is not a slave by any stretch of the imagination, not at any time.

A 'slave' that was sold into marriage against her will, forced to have sex as he pleased, hand her over to his bloodriders if he pleases, beat her if he pleases, etc - Yes a slave by today's standards. Just because some of these things didn't happen doesn't mean they couldn't have and Daenerys would not have been able to do one thing about it. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

I haven't read the books in a long time, and don't intend to reread them unless GRRM finishes the series, so I don't remember anything about mating to dogs or that he could kill her on a whim, wouldn't he have to send  her to the Dosh Kaleen? I vaguely remember something about the wife or wives, since Khals can have more than one wife, sharing her/them with the bloodriders and of course Dany thinking that her life could have been much worse if Drogo was a different kind of man, but none of that makes her a slave.  She has both rights and privileges as well as her own slaves to command, she could arguably be the 2nd most powerful person behind the Khal, and surely would be the most powerful after the Khal and his own bloodriders, as we saw in GOT where various Dothraki do her bidding even when the disagree w./her.  But we can agree to disagree here

But she is only in the position because of who Drogo is & because of who she is. The beginning of her time with the Dothraki was not fun. She rode until she had blisters on her butt & then had to endure Drogo having sex with her regardless if she hurt or not. She was not free to leave & go on her merry way. 

The various Dothraki go to complain to Drogo that she is commanding them & Drogo basically tells them to piss off. That's why they do her bidding. Because Drogo told them to. She is nothing without Drogo - as evidenced when Drogo dies. 

Again, was she a slave in the khalasar? No. Would she be a slave by todays standards? 

-She has to marry who she is told

-She is not free to leave

- She is not allowed to refuse him sex

- Drogo can beat her

- Drogo can share her with his men

So yeah sort of. She has some liberties that are not afforded to the slaves but she most definitely isn't free nor does she have control over what she does, where she lives, what she eats (to an extent), she isn't free from the threat of physical harm or rape. 

 

[The Commentator]

8 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

There was both justice in slaying the masters as well as strategy.  Leaving boys alive who can fight back is bad.  Tywin knew that when he fought the Reynes and the Tarbecks.  Twelve years old is old enough to know better.  They've been living sinful lives and it's now the time to pay the price.  I completely agree with Daenerys on this matter.

 

5 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I don't get the sense that it was strategic. She couldn't bring herself to harm the child hostages in Meereen, after all. I think she just considers 13 to be the age of adulthood (or at least the age at which one bears the responsibilities of adults), since that's when she had to grow up.

I don't know if it was strategic.  She has more power in Mereen.  More resources.  She could afford to show mercy whereas it will almost be suicide to show mercy right after her victory in Astapor.  

Tywin did what he did to punish the obstinate families and to send a message to anyone who might be thinking the same thing.  It was punishment but it had some strategy behind it, whether you agree with Tywin or not.  The ones who disagreed kept their opinions to themselves.  

[Hodor the Articulate]

13 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I don't know if it was strategic.  She has more power in Mereen.  More resources.  She could afford to show mercy whereas it will almost be suicide to show mercy right after her victory in Astapor.  

Tywin did what he did to punish the obstinate families and to send a message to anyone who might be thinking the same thing.  It was punishment but it had some strategy behind it, whether you agree with Tywin or not.  The ones who disagreed kept their opinions to themselves.   

I don't think she'd have kiddos killed, even if it were strategic (unlike Tywin), is what I meant. They're her weakness.

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And I'll also note that Dany herself was never a slave, despite her claims to the contrary. She was never sold, never collared, never whipped.

"Drogo is so rich that even his slaves wear golden collars [...] They dressed her in the wisps that Magister Illyrio had sent up, and then the gown [...] Last of all came the collar, a heavy golden torc emblazoned with ancient Valyrian glyphs."

“He can have her tomorrow, if he likes,” her brother said. He glanced over at Dany, and she lowered her eyes. “So long as he pays the price.”"

"Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo."

"I'd let his whole khalasar fuck you if need be, sweet sister, all forty thousand men, and their horses too if that was what it took to get my army."

She's never been whipped, though. I'll give you that.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

That wasn't murder.  That was a war for independence.  The slavers captured and bought free people and kept them prisoner in order to resell them for profit.  I think we can all agree that the Ghiscari masters had no right to treat these people as property.  They were prisoners and subjected to constant torture.  What Khaleesi did to the masters and their families was divine justice.  She had the whip, which is what passed for authority in the Harpy world and The Unsullied recognized and respected her right to command.  It was all perfectly legal.  I would add it was moral to execute every master over a certain age.  Responsibility comes at an earlier age in those times compared to what we have today.  I will say to you that what we have today, where 17 year olds don't have to face the gas chamber for doing even the most heinous of crimes is the real tragedy.  

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

That wasn't murder.  That was a war for independence.  The slavers captured and bought free people and kept them prisoner in order to resell them for profit.  I think we can all agree that the Ghiscari masters had no right to treat these people as property.  They were prisoners and subjected to constant torture.  What Khaleesi did to the masters and their families was divine justice.  She had the whip, which is what passed for authority in the Harpy world and The Unsullied recognized and respected her right to command.  It was all perfectly legal.  I would add it was moral to execute every master over a certain age.  Responsibility comes at an earlier age in those times compared to what we have today.  I will say to you that what we have today, where 17 year olds don't have to face the gas chamber for doing even the most heinous of crimes is the real tragedy.  

The Good/Wise/Great Masters are not the morally righteous side in this conflict.

[Rose of Red Lake]

The focus should be on what this power does to Dany. She is on a development in which she tries to assume the moral high ground in this instance, but as I was trying to point out, the higher she rises the more hypocritical she becomes, to the point where her sincerity is dubious. Is she really going to make abolishing slavery her life’s work or is that just a way to gain power to get her birthright back? If it’s sincere it’s still going to be bad. The more she tries to “civilize” people the more she’ll believe has the burden of building a morally superior empire. Which, psychologically, does things to people, and in literature this is usually portrayed as a fall, not a rise. Instead of a “leadership arc,” Essos could just be Dany going to tyrant school. Then if Dany continues to have non-literate peoples worshipping her as a charismatic demigod and if she never doubts her position or her righteousness, then she’ll be corrupted by it and is probably on the road to megalomania.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The Good/Wise/Great Masters are not the morally righteous side in this conflict.

Sure.  The Good/Wise/Great Masters were the Nazis/Southern Slavers in this fight.  

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

15 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The focus should be on what this power does to Dany. She is on a development in which she tries to assume the moral high ground in this instance, but as I was trying to point out, the higher she rises the more hypocritical she becomes, to the point where her sincerity is dubious. Is she really going to make abolishing slavery her life’s work or is that just a way to gain power to get her birthright back? If it’s sincere it’s still going to be bad. The more she tries to “civilize” people the more she’ll believe has the burden of building a morally superior empire. Which, psychologically, does things to people, and in literature this is usually portrayed as a fall, not a rise. Instead of a “leadership arc,” Essos could just be Dany going to tyrant school. Then if Dany continues to have non-literate peoples worshipping her as a charismatic demigod and if she never doubts her position or her righteousness, then she’ll be corrupted by it and is probably on the road to megalomania.

The focus should be on what each person reading your thread want to focus on.  It is fair to look at the bigger picture and discuss the failures of Robb Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jon Snow, Stannis, and Renly when discussing this case.  It is counterproductive to limit the discussion because comparison is a useful tool to evaluate the morality of a leader's decisions.  

Daenerys Targaryen's rise to power does not have hypocrisy as its theme.  The main internal conflict in these Meereenese chapters is the use and the limitations of military power.  She can crush the slave masters and their allies if she so desired but instead she wants to pursue the way of cooperation in order to rule over them and lead it towards a non-slaving economy.  George is being realistic and shows how strongly the slavers will hang on to their economic system.  It's nothing to do with right and wrong to them.  They don't care if it's wrong.  The South could care less about the ethics of slavery.  Slavery gave them an easy way to become prosperous at the expense and suffering of the weak.  The only way to end slavery is by force.  A lot of people will die and that is fine.  I am not antiwar.  George might differ in his opinion because he strongly opposes war but just because I read his books does not in any way mean that I agree with him.  It is not more or less tragic for children to die.  That is just an arbitrary value decision.  We know children are not innocents.  They do bad things just as adults do.  What constitutes an adult anyway.  The age of 18 years is not dictated by the laws of mother nature but some decision made by modern softies.  I don't have a problem with the order to execute every tokar wearing person over the age of 12.  Robb and the Starks would surely have arranged the deaths of Tommen and Myrcella after they killed Joffrey.  The Starks are hypocrites and that meant they might get somebody like the Greatjon to do the killing in order to keep their conscience clean.  The truth is it doesn't really matter whether they swing the sword or not.  Another ridiculous idea that the man who does his own execution is more honorable than the person who holds themselves above that and designate an official executioner.  

I will repeat a statement that comes up again and again on this forum.  Daenerys Targaryen would have gotten more criticism if she had left the slavers alone to continue the slave trade.  Instead she took the path of most resistance in order to help the slaves.  Nobody else has the will nor the power to do this.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The focus should be on what this power does to Dany. She is on a development in which she tries to assume the moral high ground in this instance, but as I was trying to point out, the higher she rises the more hypocritical she becomes, to the point where her sincerity is dubious. Is she really going to make abolishing slavery her life’s work or is that just a way to gain power to get her birthright back? If it’s sincere it’s still going to be bad. The more she tries to “civilize” people the more she’ll believe has the burden of building a morally superior empire. Which, psychologically, does things to people, and in literature this is usually portrayed as a fall, not a rise. Instead of a “leadership arc,” Essos could just be Dany going to tyrant school. Then if Dany continues to have non-literate peoples worshipping her as a charismatic demigod and if she never doubts her position or her righteousness, then she’ll be corrupted by it and is probably on the road to megalomania.

The higher she becomes I think the more difficult the decisions get. She is letting herself go further & further over her own drawn line, in an attempt to be just, and it's a slippery slope. I don't think she believes she is hypocritical - which is where alot of the danger comes in IMO.

The more she is hailed, the more she believes in her own cause - whatever that may be (ending slavery or sitting the IT) It reinforces for her that she is just & right & knows best. 

That being said I do think, thus far, she has done her best to do what is right & hasn't failed too miserably. She does make some questionable decisions but at least we know they are coming from a logical place. As morally questionable as some may find it to crucify 163 people, I get it & I would be lying if I said I wasn't glad she did it. The issue comes in, like you said, in believing her word & orders shouldn't be questioned. Relying less & less on her advisors & more on her own because she knows what's good & right. It is probably going to lead her down a path to her own destruction & many will go down with her. I don't believe she sets out to do that though if that makes sense. She truly believed & will believe, clean through the entirety of her path to the throne that she is righteous. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

It is not more or less tragic for children to die.  That is just an arbitrary value decision.  We know children are not innocents.  They do bad things just as adults do.  What constitutes an adult anyway.  The age of 18 years is not dictated by the laws of mother nature but some decision made by modern softies. 

I disagree completely. Just because children can do bad things doesn't mean that children are generally innocent. There are a few truly bad seeds but before children inherit the hatred & ideas given to them by those that surround them they are typically good hearted, loving, kind beings. That coupled with the fact that even when children do something bad they don't have the capacity to do 'bad' on the same level an adult does. They haven't even had a chance to live to see what kind of impact they can have on the world. So it is more tragic when a child dies to me. 

I do agree that what constitutes an adult is questionable though. I definitely was not an adult at 18. Not in the sense I mean it. I was probably close to 25 or 30 before I began to have the mechanisms to think things through, control my temper, have true empathy for other people etc. 

2 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

 I don't have a problem with the order to execute every tokar wearing person over the age of 12.  Robb and the Starks would surely have arranged the deaths of Tommen and Myrcella after they killed Joffrey.  The Starks are hypocrites and that meant they might get somebody like the Greatjon to do the killing in order to keep their conscience clean.

I don't necessarily have an issue with the order but it does beg the question why 12? 

As to the bolded the Starks have been taught those who pass the sentence should swing the sword. Something that we know Robb & Jon, at least, are practicing so there is no textual evidence to support your claims & there is textual evidence to support the opposite. 

[Wisconsin]

On 8/30/2019 at 4:13 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

 

I don't know if it was strategic.  She has more power in Mereen.  More resources.  She could afford to show mercy whereas it will almost be suicide to show mercy right after her victory in Astapor.  

Tywin did what he did to punish the obstinate families and to send a message to anyone who might be thinking the same thing.  It was punishment but it had some strategy behind it, whether you agree with Tywin or not.  The ones who disagreed kept their opinions to themselves.  

The world has always been brutal.  People are always competing for everything.  I hope George Martin is not so naive as to suggests we should follow the way of the people of Naath.  The ever victims are the people of Naath.  The game of thrones pretty much require that the ones on top regularly remind the rest what can happen if they are challenged.  I can see the sound reasoning behind killing the Astapori of a certain age because they are a potential threat.  I can also see the reason behind Tywin doing what he did to the Reynes and Aerys doing what he did to the Darklyns.  Robert turned out not so different because Micah died under his watch because of his ineptitude.  Thousands of families died because of Ned and Robb choosing the choices they made.  

[SeanF]

Actually, I think George Martin's attitude to slavery is summed up by Abner Marsh in Fevre Dreme, where he says he'd love to see slavery end peacefully, but if it has to be done by force, then so be it.  

So, I'd say the correct take is that Dany's anti-slavery campaign was righteous overall, but not everything she did in the course of that campaign was.  If she was alays morally perfect, she'd be a Mary Sue.

[Bowen 747]

On 8/22/2019 at 11:03 PM, Son of Man said:

I find it so silly that people over value children.  The life of a child is no more valuable nor any less than that of an elderly person.  War should be an equal opportunity killer.  The young people who died were casualties and are paying for the millenia of abuse their culture have heaped on the weak.  It's not murder.  It's war.  It's being a hypocrite to feel offended over the deaths of the young Ghiscari slavers while simultaneously turning a blind eye to what Robert's Rebellion did to the people overseas.  And Robert's reason was less valid.  

We should be thinking of the millions of slave children who suffered at the hands of the Ghiscari (and will continue to suffer unless the Ghiscari are stopped) instead of feeling sorry for the Little Masters.  The Little Masters and the countless generations before them have benefited from slavery.  They are now reaping the fruits of their way of life.  Its payment for the luxury they have enjoyed for years at the expense of their slaves.  The amount of lives ended and destroyed by slavery far overshadow the deaths of these Little Masters.  

Stannis was contemplating the burning of his nephew for personal gain.  Theon murdered two innocent farm boys.  It would not have been so bad if it had been Bran and Rickon who are enemies of his family.  But no, he picked two boys who had nothing to do with this fight.  The watch put young boys in harm's way in service to the kingdom.  Knights put their squires in danger all the time.  The expressed concern for the deaths of the Little Masters is just propaganda and hot air to me.

 

I too find it ridiculous how much value and compassion the young get.  They should get no more and no less than any other person.  It's emotional sentiments rather than natural law.  More adults are parents and they care too much for their children and they project that in the culture.  Capital punishment should be an option for child criminals but it will never pass because parents are scared their own children will commit a crime.  There is that personal stake that warps the values of the culture.  Children contribute the least and use up resources.  The most useful people are the ones of working age.  

Ordering the execution of every master 12 and older is fair when you consider the sins these people are guilty of.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, Bowen 747 said:

I too find it ridiculous how much value and compassion the young get.  They should get no more and no less than any other person.  It's emotional sentiments rather than natural law.  More adults are parents and they care too much for their children and they project that in the culture.  Capital punishment should be an option for child criminals but it will never pass because parents are scared their own children will commit a crime.  There is that personal stake that warps the values of the culture.  Children contribute the least and use up resources.  The most useful people are the ones of working age.  

Ordering the execution of every master 12 and older is fair when you consider the sins these people are guilty of.

It's absolutely natural law. Children do not possess the capacity to differentiate right & wrong the way adults do, nor do they have the ability to understand the consequences of their actions further than a few minutes into the future. 

Let me ask you this: do you believe mentally handicapped people should be held to the same standard as someone who is not when it comes to committing a crime? 

As to the bolded I think the amount of horrendous child abuse cases we see, all across the world, every single day, proves that wrong. People don't care enough about their children. The reason it's more tragic for a child to die is because they are generally more innocent & haven't been given a chance at life. People aren't scared their own children will commit a crime, they just understand that children cannot & do not process things the way adults do. That doesn't mean they don't get punished at all, it just means there is some leniency & understanding involved. 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 8/21/2019 at 6:38 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Quote 1: “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.” - Daenerys, ASOS

Quote 2: “In death he looked even younger than he had with blade in hand. “A boy,” said Dany. “He was only a boy.”
“Six-and-ten,” Hizdahr insisted. “A man grown, who freely chose to risk his life for gold and glory. No children die today in Daznak’s, as my gentle queen in her wisdom has decreed.” - Daenerys, ADWD

Quote 3: "A boy came, younger than Dany, slight and scarred, dressed up in a frayed grey tokar trailing silver fringe. His voice broke when he told of how two of his father's household slaves had risen up the night the gate broke. One had slain his father, the other his elder brother. Both had raped his mother before killing her as well. The boy had escaped with no more than the scar upon his face, but one of the murderers was still living in his father's house, and the other had joined the queen's soldiers as one of the Mother's Men. He wanted them both hanged. I am queen over a city built on dust and death. Dany had no choice but to deny him. She had declared a blanket pardon for all crimes committed during the sack. Nor would she punish slaves for rising up against their masters."- Daenerys, ADWD

Several questions here - 

First, is everyone who wears a tokar a slave master? Or, is the tokar the garment worn by free people, some of which are slave owners, some are not?

Second, at what age is a person in Slavers Bay responsible for slavery?

Third, would a person wearing a tokar, who is 12 years old, have been killed in the sack? If so, did Dany sanction child murder? (quotes 1, 2, 3)

Fourth, if she thinks 16 is a child, where did she come up with the number 12 before this? (referring to quote 1 and 2)

Finally, would you consider Mirri Maz Duur a slave who rose up against her master? (referring to Quote 3)

1st. Tokar's are worn by the wealthy. So it's not unfair to assume that any person wearing one has a big hand in slavery.

2nd. I don't think that there is a definitive answer to that. Slavery is a huge part of their culture. People are born into it. Dany had to smash them to get them to cease. In my opinion, 12 is young enough to of not actively purchased a human being at auction. Though they would of benefited from slavery they may not of had a chance to propagate it. 

3rd. Yes and yes. You don't get to the top of the pyramid with all of your principles intact. 

4th. Iirc, she's looking upon a sixteen year old and realising that this person is essentially a child. Not that much different to a 12 year old. It's never going to be an exact science. I have a thirteen year-old brother who hasn't been through puberty yet. I went through it at 12. 

5th. Yep. Mirri rose up in defiance of Drogo and Dany and I suppose the Dothraki as a whole. Dany really is in the middle of all of this. And if it hadn't of cost Dany her love and her child, then I believe Dany would of supported her actions. 

As another poster said early on, killing a child isn't too different than killing an adult. I think that the North may be somewhat different considering they have harsh winters to weather and so rely on keeping children safe so as to re-emerge on the other side of winter with plenty of people to start again. It's a question of practicality - not ethics. Even so, it's a good way of having readers warm to certain characters.

And despite the inevitable hypocrisy of starting a war and expecting children to go unharmed, it is preferable to those who kill indiscriminately such as Tywin and Gregor Clegane. It's a grey area and true to form, GRRM has given us varying shades of grey. I worry that Dany will turn darker and darker the more she's pushed. It's her potential that frightens me. If she flips, the whole world will too. Fire & blood. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

1st. Tokar's are worn by the wealthy. So it's not unfair to assume that any person wearing one has a big hand in slavery.

2nd. I don't think that there is a definitive answer to that. Slavery is a huge part of their culture. People are born into it. Dany had to smash them to get them to cease. In my opinion, 12 is young enough to of not actively purchased a human being at auction. Though they would of benefited from slavery they may not of had a chance to propagate it. 

3rd. Yes and yes. You don't get to the top of the pyramid with all of your principles intact. 

4th. Iirc, she's looking upon a sixteen year old and realising that this person is essentially a child. Not that much different to a 12 year old. It's never going to be an exact science. I have a thirteen year-old brother who hasn't been through puberty yet. I went through it at 12. 

5th. Yep. Mirri rose up in defiance of Drogo and Dany and I suppose the Dothraki as a whole. Dany really is in the middle of all of this. And if it hadn't of cost Dany her love and her child, then I believe Dany would of supported her actions. 

As another poster said early on, killing a child isn't too different than killing an adult. I think that the North may be somewhat different considering they have harsh winters to weather and so rely on keeping children safe so as to re-emerge on the other side of winter with plenty of people to start again. It's a question of practicality - not ethics. Even so, it's a good way of having readers warm to certain characters.

And despite the inevitable hypocrisy of starting a war and expecting children to go unharmed, it is preferable to those who kill indiscriminately such as Tywin and Gregor Clegane. It's a grey area and true to form, GRRM has given us varying shades of grey. I worry that Dany will turn darker and darker the more she's pushed. It's her potential that frightens me. If she flips, the whole world will too. Fire & blood. 

All sympathetic characters in this series are shades of grey.  Every one.  I'm confident that Daenerys will never turn into the mad Nazi/Satan travesty that D & D gave us.  For one thing, D & D whitewashed Tyrion, whereas Martin has described Tyrion as "the villain (but we all love a good villain)."  Why would he then want to turn Daenerys into a bigger villain?

I do think her story will go down a darker path in TWOW, however. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

All sympathetic characters in this series are shades of grey.  Every one.  I'm confident that Daenerys will never turn into the mad Nazi/Satan travesty that D & D gave us.  For one thing, D & D whitewashed Tyrion, whereas Martin has described Tyrion as "the villain (but we all love a good villain)."  Why would he then want to turn Daenerys into a bigger villain?

I do think her story will go down a darker path in TWOW, however.

As will all of our protagonists. Jon isn't coming back a dove, Arya's still finishing her list (now with magic ninja skills!), Bran's going into people's heads, Tyrion wants to rape his sis, and if we're going to talk about child murder... Sansa's poisoning her own cousin. No one's coming out of winter with clean hands.

[John Suburbs]

On 8/30/2019 at 1:05 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

No they only had a choice because they were no longer slaves. They had the choice to go back into slavery, a choice they were not given the first time. 

It still points up the fallacy that slavery is not a choice. These people chose slavery. It was their choice. As slaves they also have a choice, even if it is choosing the lesser of two evils. Being a peasant in Westeros is not a choice either. Do you think a swineheard would choose swinehearding if he could be a noble instead? Would a noble choose to be a swineheard? Very few people in this world have actual choices.

Do you remember the tale of the three weaverwomen? Their master came to Dany asking for a cut of their business because he trained them and they were using his loom. Dany told him to take a hike because they had already paid their debts. Then they were killed by the SoH.

So here were three women who were living a fairly comfortable lives making tapestries in exchange for food, clothing, a nice place to live and protection -- pretty much the same deal that a free weaver in Westeros would get. Along comes Dany and frees them, essentially giving them their "freedom" but taking away their comfortable lives (since I can't believe their is huge demand for tapestries in Meereen at the moment; Dany has one, and that was "given" to her) and, more importantly, their protection. They paid with their lives, and they had no choice in any of this: no choice to be a slave, no choice to be free, and no choice but to be raped and killed.

 

On 8/30/2019 at 1:09 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes the Unsullied. I'm not saying they had some burning desire to be free - they had no burning desire to be anything because it was tortured & beaten out of them. What I said was they could not have been at all satisfied with their situation. Their situation previous to Daenerys was worse than what it was after. After getting a taste of what it might be do you think they would choose to go back? Like the household slaves? 

I get what you are saying & they are both terrible situations but one set of people are directly responsible for enslaving another set of people. You or I, or most of anyone in aSoiaF haven't done anything to directly cause poverty, if we have it was unknowingly. The Slavers cannot say the same. 

If they were unsatisfied with their situation they had all the means at their disposal to change it, just like Craster's wives. They were the only armed men in Astapor. But you are forgetting one salient fact about the Unsullied: they drink daily doses of the wine of courage. Ostensibly this is to deaden their pain, but I suspect it has a mind-deadening, hypnotic affect as well to make them docile and obedient. So they are a special case when considering whether they are satisfied or not, since they are basically drugged. I suspect that Varys' little birds are given the same thing.

But their situation is no better or worse now that they follow Dany. They are soldiers. They fight, they die. Nothing has changed for them. Even their "choice" to follow her as free men is the same as the "choice" between slavery and death. Those that do not follow her will die, as sure as shootin'. And in following her they devote themselves totally to her cause and must follow her orders to the death, all with no pay, just like slaves.

But I get what you are saying as well. Freedom is always preferable to bondage. But I submit that you look at this situation through the eyes of the characters, not those of a 21st Century member of a free, liberal, democratic society. Most Westerosi commoners abhor the idea of slavery because their religion and their culture has taught them that bondage is bad. Many slaves in Essos, if not most, are terrified at the thought of freedom because of all the uncertainty it brings to life. Send some glib-talking, power figure into either society, however, who tells people how much better life will be under their leadership, and see how many will fight and die to upend the old order.

And one more point before I leave this thread: you and I are not responsible for poverty, and you absolve Dany of any blame for all the misery that has happened since she crushed Astapor and Meereen, and yet you do place responsibility for 10,000 years of slavery on some tokar-wearing boy who has done nothing to cause it either and has never harmed anyone, slave or free, in his life. Sorry, but to that I have to call major league hypocrisy.