Dany and child murder

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

 

Who said Dany's choices don't have consequences? They obviously do. Her failure to fully disempower the Great Masters lead to the Harpy's Sons, and her compromises have allowed the restoration of slavery in some form, as well as the re-establishment of power of the GM through Hizdahr. This isn't a successful path for Dany.

That doesn't mean the overall message of the series is no compromise, blood and fire. But in this particular situation, it applies.

That's where the views differ, on whether she succeeded or failed. I think the Blot makes a good case for the former when measuring success by ending slavery in Meereen, and Dany's resulting struggle within herself to keep it or throw it away. That summarizes the entire arc. If the point was, "Dany realizes she needs to use nukes and this is the correct choice" the story would have nothing to do with that struggle.

If you define success by ending slavery everywhere instantly, of course it looks like she "failed" and her strategy didnt work. If you think she was making mistakes the whole time (I don't), then the major climax, where she finally uses Drogon, and Barristan imprisons Hizdahr, doesn't matter.

Her only allies now are sellswords and pirates, when she could have rebuilt Meereen to split off a coalition of locals to work with her in future wars. Thats the biggest mistake, IMO. I don't know why you want to typecast her as someone who cant sit down to rule effectively if she really tries. Ruling with the peace could be a viable choice, but by saying it would never work and she failed, presumes a "bad" choice. That also means she has nothing to be tempted by.

And nukes are GREAT would be the message for her, if thats how the Essos arc ends. The text does support a reading that she could achieve success, without using them. Its the first time she tried to walk softly and carry a big stick. Now she's just going to be walking loudly and stupidly. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Perhaps "hardened" would be the better term than "corrupted".

She can live in Meereen playing politics, perhaps build something real, and live to an old age to fight another day, or choose fire and blood, killing everyone in a tokar, and as a consequence later, burn herself up super fast. The consequences for choosing to be expedient.

[SeanF]

26 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She can live in Meereen playing politics, perhaps build something real, and live to an old age to fight another day, or choose fire and blood, killing everyone in a tokar, and as a consequence later, burn herself up super fast. The consequences for choosing to be expedient.

That's true, but I guess she has to be in Westeros to save the world from the Others, eventually.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

That's true, but I guess she has to be in Westeros to save the world from the Others, eventually.

It does need speeding up just to get the damn books finished, but the development of the story's #2 villain is progressing.

[Cas Stark]

I'd be surprised if the take-away on Slaver's Bay was that she should have killed 'everyone' except the slaves.  More likely, the message is that you can't reform a society on the cheap, no matter how good your intentions are or how terrible that society is, you can't roll in, take over and expect it to be fixed within a few years.  Dany's real problem is there is/was no economic plan, no idea of how to replace an economy where the slave trade was the centerpiece, and so, she has no way to co opt the elites and no path forward.

[argonak]

9 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I'd be surprised if the take-away on Slaver's Bay was that she should have killed 'everyone' except the slaves.  More likely, the message is that you can't reform a society on the cheap, no matter how good your intentions are or how terrible that society is, you can't roll in, take over and expect it to be fixed within a few years.  Dany's real problem is there is/was no economic plan, no idea of how to replace an economy where the slave trade was the centerpiece, and so, she has no way to co opt the elites and no path forward.

Dany's real problem is that she's a 16 year old girl with 3 WMDs and a host of people who expect far too much of her.  How anyone could reasonably expect her to save everyone and fix things (without being given ludicrous plot armor) is beyond me.

I think that GRRM is using Dany as a semi-realistic example of what the mythical savior trope would actually lead to.  Her first victory, astapor, she did everything like the stories would tell her to do, and it was an unmitigated disaster.  Her second victory she's trying to run the show, and its falling down as well.   

Dany is put in Ghengis Khan's position, but without his decades of hard won experience at leadership, organization, and warfare, and all his very able sons.  She's been forced onto a super accelerated leadership path due to her dragons, and it shows.  

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, argonak said:

Dany's real problem is that she's a 16 year old girl with 3 WMDs and a host of people who expect far too much of her.  How anyone could reasonably expect her to save everyone and fix things (without being given ludicrous plot armor) is beyond me.

I think that GRRM is using Dany as a semi-realistic example of what the mythical savior trope would actually lead to.  Her first victory, astapor, she did everything like the stories would tell her to do, and it was an unmitigated disaster.  Her second victory she's trying to run the show, and its falling down as well.   

Dany is put in Ghengis Khan's position, but without his decades of hard won experience at leadership, organization, and warfare, and all his very able sons.  She's been forced onto a super accelerated leadership path due to her dragons, and it shows.  

She also has no desire to replicate Genghis Khan's methods of dealing with dissent.

I agree that if everything went swimmingly in Slavers Bay, she'd be a Mary Sue.

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I'd be surprised if the take-away on Slaver's Bay was that she should have killed 'everyone' except the slaves.  More likely, the message is that you can't reform a society on the cheap, no matter how good your intentions are or how terrible that society is, you can't roll in, take over and expect it to be fixed within a few years.  Dany's real problem is there is/was no economic plan, no idea of how to replace an economy where the slave trade was the centerpiece, and so, she has no way to co opt the elites and no path forward.

If a society can only live by trading slaves, then I don't think an alternative economic plan is possible (and no one thinks about economic theories in the world).

I think that in reality, even in Meereen, agriculture is the biggest element of the economy, as in almost any pre-industrial society.  Dany does focus on agriculture, and with some success (the city is well-stocked with food, even under siege). Given time, I'd expect the replacement of slave labour with free labour to produce a big rise in agricultural productivity, as free labour is more efficient that slave labour.

The Great Masters were idiots to burn the olive groves around the city.  Olives are incredibly valuable crops in arid climates, but they take about 25 years before they start bearing fruit.

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If a society can only live by trading slaves, then I don't think an alternative economic plan is possible (and no one thinks about economic theories in the world).

I think that in reality, even in Meereen, agriculture is the biggest element of the economy, as in almost any pre-industrial society.  Dany does focus on agriculture, and with some success (the city is well-stocked with food, even under siege). Given time, I'd expect the replacement of slave labour with free labour to produce a big rise in agricultural productivity, as free labour is more efficient that slave labour.

The Great Masters were idiots to burn the olive groves around the city.  Olives are incredibly valuable crops in arid climates, but they take about 25 years before they start bearing fruit.

But the fact that they DID burn the olive trees is part of what leaves Dany with so few alternatives.  She could have quickly retooled things w/paid labor for agriculture, this still would take some time, but with no olives and no other products that they can export, she is stuck.  Their export was slaves, with a small helping of olives, now there are no slaves or olives to sell. 

 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

But the fact that they DID burn the olive trees is part of what leaves Dany with so few alternatives.  She could have quickly retooled things w/paid labor for agriculture, this still would take some time, but with no olives and no other products that they can export, she is stuck.  Their export was slaves, with a small helping of olives, now there are no slaves or olives to sell. 

 

Slaves were the main export - and that export has now gone.  Which means there is little money to import luxury items like spices and perfumes.  But, that doesn't really hurt the domestic economy - in fact we see that agricultural production is doing just fine.  She also got a trade treaty with Lhazar which would help.

Looking at things in modern terms, agriculture is probably worth around 50% of GDP, whereas slave dealing might be worth 10%.  Losing that 10% is an economic hit, but one that can be survived.  But, the people who made money from slave dealing are loud and influential, even if relatively few in number.

[Cas Stark]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Slaves were the main export - and that export has now gone.  Which means there is little money to import luxury items like spices and perfumes.  But, that doesn't really hurt the domestic economy - in fact we see that agricultural production is doing just fine.  She also got a trade treaty with Lhazar which would help.

Looking at things in modern terms, agriculture is probably worth around 50% of GDP, whereas slave dealing might be worth 10%.  Losing that 10% is an economic hit, but one that can be survived.  But, the people who made money from slave dealing are loud and influential, even if relatively few in number.

I would think that the slave trade represented much more than 10% of their economy, probably at least 50% if not more; if it was only 10% then there is no reason that things would have fallen apart to the extent they have, people are starving everywhere in Slaver's Bay, which suggests that as city states they weren't growing that much of their own food, and were probably importing it, the entire region was built on the specialized export of slave.  But, I haven't' read Dance in quite a while so may have forgotten some of the details. 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I would think that the slave trade represented much more than 10% of their economy, probably at least 50% if not more; if it was only 10% then there is no reason that things would have fallen apart to the extent they have, people are starving everywhere in Slaver's Bay, which suggests that as city states they weren't growing that much of their own food, and were probably importing it, the entire region was built on the specialized export of slave.  But, I haven't' read Dance in quite a while so may have forgotten some of the details. 

The river that flows through Meereen is used for irrigation for 150 miles upstream, so that's a lot of land that's being cultivated.  There are also estates inland.  Meereen itself is not short of food, although other places might well be.

A loss of 10% would hurt (it would be an extremely severe recession in the modern world) and the war will have hit the economy further.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

It's very bodice-ripper-y though. And the latter books set in the Americas draaaag for me, mostly because of the addition of some very bland characters. But I won't go on about it in this thread

I love the books set in the Americas! To each their own though  

 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My girlfriend was pretty shocked when some elderly African-Americans were apparently surprised when she offered seats to them in a waiting room and a train or bus - if that's representative of the standard behavior in the US, you still have a long way to go. And if I had to guess this certainly reflects the slavery history - the whites just don't think it is necessary to offer common courtesy to their former slaves (who still constitute, in essence, a serving class if you look at the statistics).

[It might be that it is not common in the US to rise and offer seats to elderly people in general. Then I apologize for the anecdote ;-)

It is common in the US to rise & offer seats to elderly people. I don't necessarily think it's the standard of behavior I think their surprise probably had more to do with their personal experiences. Those that are respectful know they should get up & let an elderly person take their seat - but not everyone is respectful. Combine that with them being African Americans & that probably halves the amount of times they have been offered a seat by someone. 

In regards to whites not thinking it's necessary to offer common courtesy to their former slaves - I don't think this is a conscience thought if that makes sense? I would like to believe most people aren't thinking "Well their ancestors are former slaves so I don't owe them human decency" but it has to stem from this. I'm only speculating really but I can't imagine where else it came from. I think people, by & large, take their ideas of race & racism from their parents or whoever raised them. But we have to come to a certain point where we understand that it's time to think for ourselves & not adopt the ideas of our parents. Maybe that's easy for me to say because as a white woman I was never taught that someone's worth was dictated by the color of their skin. We definitely have a long way to go but there seems to be an open-mindedness among the newest generation of teens & young adults in America & I am hopeful that this is going to make strides in the fight against racism. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Today the system is much more stable, but the way it is set up still has authoritarian roots, with crucial aspects of society going back to Bismarck. Especially officials and bureaucrats see themselves as part of a ruling class or the representatives thereof rather than as civil servants.

I think this is an issue in America as well & is where alot of the racism & idea that someone is "less than" someone else comes from. Not to derail the thread with American racism but we have police officers shooting unarmed black men weekly - maybe more. Mayors & Senators who could care less & courts that rule according to someone's economic position in society rather than the actual facts of any given situation. I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist - I don't think every single person in government is out to get me or anyone for that matter but they definitely have some sense of entitlement & are power hungry. The majority of them most definitely do not see themselves as civil servants. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That's where the views differ, on whether she succeeded or failed. I think the Blot makes a good case for the former when measuring success by ending slavery in Meereen, and Dany's resulting struggle within herself to keep it or throw it away. That summarizes the entire arc. If the point was, "Dany realizes she needs to use nukes and this is the correct choice" the story would have nothing to do with that struggle.

If you define success by ending slavery everywhere instantly, of course it looks like she "failed" and her strategy didnt work. If you think she was making mistakes the whole time (I don't), then the major climax, where she finally uses Drogon, and Barristan imprisons Hizdahr, doesn't matter.

But slavery didn't end, did it? A slave market was operating right outside the city walls. Even within Meereen, the Great Masters were slowly reintroducing the old ways, starting with the fighting pits. That's how Tyrion, who was enslaved at the time, got into Meereen, remember? This city was heading in a direction the GM favored even before Volantis was a factor. Calling this success is like calling the Targs successful during Robert's Rebellion because Randyll Tarly won that one battle. Actually, it's not even that since Dany lost ground.

I think the ultimate takeaway from this arc is that war against slavery is a worthy war. It's what Dany realises in the Dothraki sea, as she goes back to the way she was before the start of this arc, back to being Dragon and Mhysa... and no floppy ears. You may not like that conclusion but, well, GRRM isn't writing for you.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that is my picture, too. I interpret 'reconstruction' as 'reintegrating the South into the Union'. 

I think the terms more about the midwest really, the final frontier and all that. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 Didn't the US also have a couple of Southern presidents shortly after the Civil War?

Lol of course not. 5 out of 7 were Republicans from Ohio (mid west) and the other 2 were from the north east (one of the 2 being a Democrat). The eighth being Woodraw Wilson, a Southern Democrat who led America into WW1. 

Having said that, immediately after the Civil War (well, during as well because Lincoln was from the south) Andrew Johnson, a southerner became President. However he wasnt elected in (replacing Lincoln after his assassination) and was promptly impeached and regularly overruled by Congress. Some say he was the worst president in us history, and that's counting 45 lol

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, it is how a nation and the citizen and the culture see themselves - how the general narrative is framed and the self-image is constructed. Successful rebellions and revolutions are part of American and French national identity - this doesn't mean those were good revolutions or as successful as they should have been. But it is a difference if you have such things in your history compared to groups who don't have them.

Germany never saw a successful revolution. We were an authoritarian state until the end of World War I - and the parliamentary democracy afterwards was pretty much doomed because bureaucratic, cultural, political, and, especially, the military elites remained the same.

1945 pretty much no German wanted to return to democracy - that was forced on us by the Allies.

Today the system is much more stable, but the way it is set up still has authoritarian roots, with crucial aspects of society going back to Bismarck. Especially officials and bureaucrats see themselves as part of a ruling class or the representatives thereof rather than as civil servants.

Word.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But we can say that George doesn't really give us sympathetic Ghiscari, does he? None of them (those who joined her, like the Shavepate aside) give any indication they are willing to change - and without her nobody would have wanted to abolish slavery, anyway.

But shavepates to join her, I assume a decent amount of the population. Then with the threat of terrorism and murder they wear masks to conceal their face.

And pre Dany, its not unrealistic to think some were arguing against slavery (its kinda ruining the economy and city of Volantis) 

But sympathy aside, just because I feel no pity for them doesnt mean theyre not to be pitied. After all, theyre human.

It reminds me of an SSM, something about king Aragorn probably killing all the baby orcs. That's fucked up, and Orcs are pretty bad. Certainly worse then humans.

And just like Ulysses S Grant, boots on the ground. In time parts of the culture will change. At gun point, unsullied spear point, or dragon point

[Hodor the Articulate]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, and it is certainly possible that the eradication of slavery culture in Essos is going to cause Dany to be less forgiving to the Westerosi when she arrives there - because the lesson she learns is that harshness and cruelty do work, whereas being the nice girl is likely to get her killed. That certainly could cause complications, although I don't think she is going to want to be cruel to the Westeros when she arrives there. She really has to get a lot of shit from her enemies there (whoever they may turn out to be) to take the eradication approach to Westeros - if she ever does that.

Agreed. The type of resistance she will experience in Westeros will be different to that of SB, since her goal there will be to claim the IT, not to bring about social change (not at first, anyway).

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I think the ultimate takeaway from this arc is that war against slavery is a worthy war. It's what Dany realises in the Dothraki sea, as she goes back to the way she was before the start of this arc, back to being Dragon and Mhysa... and no floppy ears. You may not like that conclusion but, well, GRRM isn't writing for you.

Dany completely sucks as a politician in ADwD. There are some highlights in the first two chapters or something, but her arc really shows how a monarch fails if both her goals and her approach are not suited to resolve the problems at hand. Dany is constantly played by the people around her. They exploit her desires to be a nice queen and no tyrant to get what they want - and they clearly have no intention to live together side by side.

And, to continue the whole Civil War/Lincoln approach - the Sons of the Harpy clearly are a variation of the Ku-Klux-Klan.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think the terms more about the midwest really, the final frontier and all that. 

Lol of course not. 5 out of 7 were Republicans from Ohio (mid west) and the other 2 were from the north east (one of the 2 being a Democrat). The eighth being Woodraw Wilson, a Southern Democrat who led America into WW1. 

Having said that, immediately after the Civil War (well, during as well because Lincoln was from the south) Andrew Johnson, a southerner became President. However he wasnt elected in (replacing Lincoln after his assassination) and was promptly impeached and regularly overruled by Congress. Some say he was the worst president in us history, and that's counting 45 lol

I read a book on the US presidents a couple of years ago, but I'm not expert on those issues. Guess I blew up the Johnson fellow too much and misremembered where exactly Ohio was. Still don't know that. But then - not all CAS states are in the 'geographic south', are they?

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But shavepates to join her, I assume a decent amount of the population. Then with the threat of terrorism and murder they wear masks to conceal their face.

Some, but not the ruling class. Which is hardly striking since the guys owning most of the slaves - and making most of the money from training slaves - would be the Great Masters.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

And pre Dany, its not unrealistic to think some were arguing against slavery (its kinda ruining the economy and city of Volantis).

The Volantenes are buying slaves from Slaver's Bay, too. They are not competitors.

And while it is possible that there was disagreement over slavery, there is no confirmation that this is the case. We have no hint that any Meereenese had issues with slavery before Dany came, just as there is no hint that anyone in Westeros has problems with feudalism or monarchy.

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But sympathy aside, just because I feel no pity for them doesnt mean theyre not to be pitied. After all, theyre human.

It reminds me of an SSM, something about king Aragorn probably killing all the baby orcs. That's fucked up, and Orcs are pretty bad. Certainly worse then humans.

Sure. It depends what you talk about. My points were lasting societal change and how it is best accomplished. That it is wrong to kill people goes without saying. But if you are living in a world as shitty as Martinworld and you have the desire and the power to end slavery - which essentially means that countless people have to suffer for years and years without end - then one certainly can weigh the killing of a couple of thousand - or even tens of thousands - of individuals against that suffering.

It is not an ideal situation - but in a shitty world like that nothing is going to get better easily.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

But slavery didn't end, did it? A slave market was operating right outside the city walls. Even within Meereen, the Great Masters were slowly reintroducing the old ways, starting with the fighting pits. That's how Tyrion, who was enslaved at the time, got into Meereen, remember? This city was heading in a direction the GM favored even before Volantis was a factor. Calling this success is like calling the Targs successful during Robert's Rebellion because Randyll Tarly won that one battle. Actually, it's not even that since Dany lost ground.

Ending slavery inside the city was incremental progress. It's not waste of time. There are tangible benefits for letting the truce stand. She could focus her energies on making sure everyone in her city is free, including the fighters in the pits. Or she could just burn everyone. She could focus her energies on providing an example of a model city, without slavery. Or she could just burn everyone (On top of this, there is a presumption that the chickens will never come home to roost for her decision to do that). The truce would also allow her to take the higher ground as someone who keeps her word and is trustworthy (now she looks like someone who breaks her word just like a slaver); she could learn how to think creatively and outside the box to solve problems; she could work on building something tangible; she would learn things about ruling difficult factions; among other benefits that involve a combination of soft politics and hard deterrence that Jaehaerys used. But this arc is telling us, she's not that kind of Targaryen.  I think he's building her up as a war machine who misguidedly thinks the harshest decisions are always the wisest.

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I think the ultimate takeaway from this arc is that war against slavery is a worthy war. 

Wow, did 21st century audiences need a lesson in the evils of slavery? You can't think of a more valuable message for readers? Here he has an opportunity to illustrate something meaningful about power, and lesson is, slavery is bad, we should fight it???? Groundbreaking.

1 hour ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

It's what Dany realises in the Dothraki sea, as she goes back to the way she was before the start of this arc, back to being Dragon and Mhysa... and no floppy ears.

You're confusing several identities here.

The dragon choice is killing innocents and enemies alike, because they represent chaos. That's not "mhysa." Mhysa is a revolutionary figure who stands outside the power structure who cares for people. But as she sits down to rule within the power structure, she has to wear the floppy ears. Something Aerys had to do after he conquered Westeros. Suck it up and adopt the customs.

If Dany is thinking she can be a dragon and be a mhysa figure and still rule as queen, in both Westeros and Essos, all at the same time, she's wrong. Also, the choices presented her depend on some element of them being real to actually TEMPT her on that path; that's the strongest argument to me for why the peace wasn't fake or a waste of time. 

Finally, she is an unreliable narrator. She wants perfection, instantly. Just because she believes she should use dragons to solve her problems, doesn't mean it's the best choice, or that the author is endorsing it (in fact, he talks about the limitations of such power in interviews). I think he's simply raising questions for debate while he also works toward building Dany as a tyrant who wants to burn down the world.  

[Cas Stark]

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I read a book on the US presidents a couple of years ago, but I'm not expert on those issues. Guess I blew up the Johnson fellow too much and misremembered where exactly Ohio was. Still don't know that. But then - not all CAS states are in the 'geographic south', are they?

Yes.  They are all in the South.  There were some areas of the Midwest, the Southern areas of states like Missouri, Illinois, Indiana where there was much sympathy for the Confederacy.  Ohio is in the Midwest and was not a slave state.

[SeanF]

13 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Ending slavery inside the city was incremental progress. It's not waste of time. There are tangible benefits for letting the truce stand. She could focus her energies on making sure everyone in her city is free, including the fighters in the pits. Or she could just burn everyone. She could focus her energies on providing an example of a model city, without slavery. Or she could just burn everyone (On top of this, there is a presumption that the chickens will never come home to roost for her decision to do that). The truce would also allow her to take the higher ground as someone who keeps her word and is trustworthy (now she looks like someone who breaks her word just like a slaver); she could learn how to think creatively and outside the box to solve problems; she could work on building something tangible; she would learn things about ruling difficult factions; among other benefits that involve a combination of soft politics and hard deterrence that Jaehaerys used. But this arc is telling us, she's not that kind of Targaryen.  I think he's building her up as a war machine who misguidedly thinks the harshest decisions are always the wisest.

Wow, did 21st century audiences need a lesson in the evils of slavery? You can't think of a more valuable message for readers? Here he has an opportunity to illustrate something meaningful about power, and lesson is, slavery is bad, we should fight it???? Groundbreaking.

You're confusing several identities here.

The dragon choice is killing innocents and enemies alike, because they represent chaos. That's not "mhysa." Mhysa is a revolutionary figure who stands outside the power structure. But as she sits down to rule within the power structure, she has to wear the floppy ears. Something Aerys had to do after he conquered Westeros. Suck it up and adopt the customs.

If Dany is thinking she can be a dragon and be a mhysa figure and still rule as queen, in both Westeros and Essos, all at the same time, she's wrong. Also, the choices presented her depend on some element of them being real to actually TEMPT her on that path; that's the strongest argument to me for why the peace wasn't fake or a waste of time. 

Finally, she is an unreliable narrator. She wants perfection, instantly. Just because she believes she should use dragons to solve her problems, doesn't mean it's the best choice, or that the author is endorsing it (in fact, he talks about the limitations of such power in interviews). I think he's simply raising questions for debate while he also works toward building Dany as a tyrant who wants to burn down the world.  

I think Daenerys could become a self-righteous maniac.  Or her darker turn could be much more limited, towards becoming Macchiavelli's Prince, who is as cruel as she has to be.  It will be fun to find out.