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Dany and child murder


Rose of Red Lake

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23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My idea - and what I think George is trying to sell us and build up towards in future novels - is that trying to pacify the slavers and trying to compromise with them is going to lead nowhere. It is a dead end because that culture and the people perpetuating it suck, and things are not going to ever look brighter if they are allowed to remain.

Which means they will have to go all. And that's what's going to happen in the future. And while it might be cruel and bloody it is not going to be, in principle, bad. Because it will be necessary to build a new society and culture, one that's not build on slavery and does not consider slavery a possibility.

...which is fair enough. But tbh, the first part of my reply was more to do with slaves in the U.S.A. And how I don't think it's something you can go like for like over. 

I wandered back to Dany at the end just to stay on topic. I don't doubt that Dany will erase the place from the map. Cleansed by fire, if you like. It's a whole different way to free the slaves but it also tears out the root of slavery. And it's fits her Targ identity to do it that way.

And her story needs to fit into a book with a ton of other characters...

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5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think Daenerys could become a self-righteous maniac.  Or her darker turn could be much more limited, towards becoming Macchiavelli's Prince, who is as cruel as she has to be.  It will be fun to find out.

Yeah, but we already have ample Machiavellian rulers in the story, Tywin, Tyrion, Roose Bolton, rulers who use fear and brutality as a means of control, etc. etc.  So, I feel like Dany's story will go somewhere more dramatic than her becoming Tywin Lannister with a better veneer.

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think Daenerys could become a self-righteous maniac.  Or her darker turn could be much more limited, towards becoming Macchiavelli's Prince, who is as cruel as she has to be.  It will be fun to find out.

To be a Prince she would need to actually sit down and play the game, and not rely on her advisors to do all the work and think for her. I think relying on and using dragons too much will make her stupider. That sounds bad, but I don't know how else to put it.

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Ending slavery inside the city was incremental progress. It's not waste of time. There are tangible benefits for letting the truce stand. She could focus her energies on making sure everyone in her city is free, including the fighters in the pits. Or she could just burn everyone. She could focus her energies on providing an example of a model city, without slavery. Or she could just burn everyone (On top of this, there is a presumption that the chickens will never come home to roost for her decision to do that). The truce would also allow her to take the higher ground as someone who keeps her word and is trustworthy (now she looks like someone who breaks her word just like a slaver); she could learn how to think creatively and outside the box to solve problems; she could work on building something tangible; she would learn things about ruling difficult factions; among other benefits that involve a combination of soft politics and hard deterrence that Jaehaerys used. But this arc is telling us, she's not that kind of Targaryen.  I think he's building her up as a war machine who misguidedly thinks the harshest decisions are always the wisest.

The thing is, you can't expect introduce those sicial changes without violence, because the slavers society simply can't/want to change and they will do everything in their hands to actually stop that change, slavery was being reintroduced slowly in Meeren, Dany was one of them there, it's incredibly easy to say that "she can learn to think out of the box" is a very unfair call, it's extremely easy to say it in theory.

Jaegarys is not only an unfairl comparison, because the man had unrealistic conveniences, the 7 PR Septons... But because it can't be be stressed enough how much Jaeharys benefited from Maegor's campaign against the faith, had Maegor not broken the Faith, House Targ could've perfectly gone extinct, had not because of the dragons, the Old Way wouldn't have ben abolished  nor the First Night, some social changes can't be achieved peacefully but at gun point.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I read a book on the US presidents a couple of years ago, but I'm not expert on those issues. Guess I blew up the Johnson fellow too much and misremembered where exactly Ohio was. Still don't know that. But then - not all CAS states are in the 'geographic south', are they?

They were. Not all southern (slave) states joined the Confedracy however. 

Ohio is in the north by Lake Erie, which also boarders Canada.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Some, but not the ruling class. Which is hardly striking since the guys owning most of the slaves - and making most of the money from training slaves - would be the Great Masters.

But the great masters are not the bulk of the population, in fact theyre probably a minority. No one rules with a 100% approval rating.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And while it is possible that there was disagreement over slavery, there is no confirmation that this is the case. We have no hint that any Meereenese had issues with slavery before Dany came, just as there is no hint that anyone in Westeros has problems with feudalism or monarchy.

So we're not privy to smallfolk or slaves thoughts. Sure we see some now and then but not often.

Still, your point is valid. However the scene in affc rings a bell, when Lancels family complains to Jaime about Beric. Something along the lines of "they lie to their lords"  There was some type a peoples resistance with the backing of the people in regards to the Brotherhood without Banners 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure. It depends what you talk about. My points were lasting societal change and how it is best accomplished. That it is wrong to kill people goes without saying. But if you are living in a world as shitty as Martinworld and you have the desire and the power to end slavery - which essentially means that countless people have to suffer for years and years without end - then one certainly can weigh the killing of a couple of thousand - or even tens of thousands - of individuals against that suffering.

It is not an ideal situation - but in a shitty world like that nothing is going to get better easily.

Word, lets (act like Cao Cao and).take morality out of the equation. Theres rationale and irrational.

Capturing 3 cities, even ones where resistance thrives with nightly murders, will eventually bring in great resources like wealth and soldiers. 

Leveling 3 cities and slaughtering the majority of its inhabitants will result in lifetime enemies with the addition of zero resources

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4 hours ago, frenin said:

Jaegarys is not only an unfairl comparison, because the man had unrealistic conveniences, the 7 PR Septons... But because it can't be be stressed enough how much Jaeharys benefited from Maegor's campaign against the faith, had Maegor not broken the Faith, House Targ could've perfectly gone extinct, had not because of the dragons, the Old Way wouldn't have ben abolished  nor the First Night, some social changes can't be achieved peacefully but at gun point.

Jaehaerys I was actually Maegor the Cruel with gloves. He showed the dragon, rather than use it, but everybody knew he would use it if he had to (as he did, during the few wars he had to fight). Never forget the man and his sons burned thousands of Dornishmen alive ... like so many candles.

And that's what it takes to be a king in this shitty world. People only respect you if they know you have teeth. That you will carry out your threats if they push you, that you will stand up to defend your friends when pushed around, etc. Dany is no way like that in ADwD. She is unwilling to become a butcher even if that's necessary to accomplish what she wants - she isn't even to use her hostages as hostages are used. She is like Jaehaerys I's father King Aenys in ADwD. She allows herself to be pushed around, especially by the Green Grace. She is even worse then Aenys when you consider that she allowed them to have her go through that ugly Ghiscari marriage ritual where she is essentially chained to her husband (King Aenys had at least the grace to insist on the continuation of his family tradition).

Dany has essentially become the floppy ears - a good little Harpy puppet - when the slavers finally decide to put her out of her misery with their poisoned locusts - and it is only a happy coincidence that prevents that.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

They were. Not all southern (slave) states joined the Confedracy however. 

Ohio is in the north by Lake Erie, which also boarders Canada.

Oh, that I know. I meant that I thought those presidents from the same state were those Southern presidents I imagined. Yeah, not all the geographic south was the political south.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But the great masters are not the bulk of the population, in fact theyre probably a minority. No one rules with a 100% approval rating.

True, but we actually don't know anything about the Meereenese population. Is there a middle or working class at all? Or do we talk about a pretty large class of rich slave owners who have essentially outsourced all manual labor to their slaves? We don't know. The impression we get certainly is that there are only slaves and slave owners in the Ghiscari cities - no hint that there are poor free citizens who cannot afford (m)any slaves.

Doesn't mean they don't exist, but the point to assume they do would be when we hear them mentioned. Especially in light of the fact that Ghiscari cities really are freak cities.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So we're not privy to smallfolk or slaves thoughts. Sure we see some now and then but not often.

Oh, sure, slaves may have wanted to end slavery before. I meant the Meereenese people, not their slaves. We have yet to meet some kind of enlightened Ghiscari slavery abolitionist - and George had about two novels to introduce us to one such.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Still, your point is valid. However the scene in affc rings a bell, when Lancels family complains to Jaime about Beric. Something along the lines of "they lie to their lords"  There was some type a peoples resistance with the backing of the people in regards to the Brotherhood without Banners.

Outlaws are a thing in Westeros, of course, but nobody ever wanted to abolish the monarchy or the feudal culture as such. Beric's gang still followed 'King Robert', after all.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word, lets (act like Cao Cao and).take morality out of the equation. Theres rationale and irrational.

Capturing 3 cities, even ones where resistance thrives with nightly murders, will eventually bring in great resources like wealth and soldiers. 

Leveling 3 cities and slaughtering the majority of its inhabitants will result in lifetime enemies with the addition of zero resources

Sure, and I'd only suggest the latter course if you intend to leave and you have no reason to believe your wishes and commands will be obeyed by whoever you leave in charge when you leave.

So the choice will be join me on my terms or die - either at my hand or of hunger and thirst because I will burn down all your cities and destroy your crops so that you cannot rebuild your society.

Once the Ghiscari cities are gone the international slave trade will collapse and the Free Cities will have a chance to actually permanently abolish slavery. If they had a chance to rebuild then slavery will inevitably return.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

. Yeah, not all the geographic south was the political south.

Ok, it was. So there was this law, the Missouri compromise, that drew a line across America which separated it into Free States and Slave States. The political differences was directly controlled by the geography.

However after South Carolina seceded it brought most slave states with them, but it didn't bring all. Maryland and Kentucky for example stayed with the union, which isnt that surprising considering the distance to Washington. (and Lincoln (though also Jefferson Davis) being born in Kentucky) West Virginia also broke itself apart from Virginia to stay loyal to the Union. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

True, but we actually don't know anything about the Meereenese population. Is there a middle or working class at all? Or do we talk about a pretty large class of rich slave owners who have essentially outsourced all manual labor to their slaves?

Ok, so the ones who live in the pyramids, theyre pretty well off, "richer then Westerosi lords", these are the great masters. The shavepates never lived in pyramids, so I think its safe to call them the middle class. Now the working class? Id assume so. Even if their work was using a whip. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I meant the Meereenese people, not their slaves. We have yet to meet some kind of enlightened Ghiscari slavery abolitionist - and George had about two novels to introduce us to one such.

Well Dany wasnt in Aspator for a week before she abolished slavery and started her campaigns so we were never introduced to abolitionists because she defeated slavery so quickly. 

But we were introduced to fans of enlightenment, like Cleos the great.

(He was no slave iirc, thatd put him as an owner of a small business, probably upper middle class)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Outlaws are a thing in Westeros, of course, but nobody ever wanted to abolish the monarchy or the feudal culture as such. Beric's gang still followed 'King Robert', after all.

Outlaws are a thing, smallfolk helping outlaws less so, Riverlords helping them even less. Theyre not seeking to abolish feudalism but theyre exposing the fallacy of it. Especially this for Robert business exposes the fallacy, he didnt send them out and hes dead.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, and I'd only suggest the latter course if you intend to leave and you have no reason to believe your wishes and commands will be obeyed by whoever you leave in charge when you leave.

So the choice will be join me on my terms or die - either at my hand or of hunger and thirst because I will burn down all your cities and destroy your crops so that you cannot rebuild your society.

Once the Ghiscari cities are gone the international slave trade will collapse and the Free Cities will have a chance to actually permanently abolish slavery. If they had a chance to rebuild then slavery will inevitably return.

Thats why she should leave some of her army in Slavers Bay while she heads to the Sunset. Just like Ulysses S Grant, its time to reconstruct Slavers Bay. By stationing loyal soldiers whos orders can be received pretty quickly by railroad, or dragonback. (Though America did have the telegraph, then again theres talk of glass candles...)

The international slave trade already took some fatel hits. Whatever Danys plan for Khal Pono is wont help matters either

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11 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

To be a Prince she would need to actually sit down and play the game, and not rely on her advisors to do all the work and think for her. I think relying on and using dragons too much will make her stupider. That sounds bad, but I don't know how else to put it.

The dragons are nothing like the WMD's of the show.  They're still only a couple of years old, and will still be very young when Dany gets to Westeros.  They'll be nowhere near as powerful as Balerion, Vaghar, and Meraxes. It will be Dany's armies that will make her formidable.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaehaerys I was actually Maegor the Cruel with gloves. He showed the dragon, rather than use it, but everybody knew he would use it if he had to (as he did, during the few wars he had to fight). Never forget the man and his sons burned thousands of Dornishmen alive ... like so many candles.

And that's what it takes to be a king in this shitty world. People only respect you if they know you have teeth. That you will carry out your threats if they push you, that you will stand up to defend your friends when pushed around, etc. Dany is no way like that in ADwD. She is unwilling to become a butcher even if that's necessary to accomplish what she wants - she isn't even to use her hostages as hostages are used. She is like Jaehaerys I's father King Aenys in ADwD. She allows herself to be pushed around, especially by the Green Grace. She is even worse then Aenys when you consider that she allowed them to have her go through that ugly Ghiscari marriage ritual where she is essentially chained to her husband (King Aenys had at least the grace to insist on the continuation of his family tradition).

Dany has essentially become the floppy ears - a good little Harpy puppet - when the slavers finally decide to put her out of her misery with their poisoned locusts - and it is only a happy coincidence that prevents that.

Oh, that I know. I meant that I thought those presidents from the same state were those Southern presidents I imagined. Yeah, not all the geographic south was the political south.

True, but we actually don't know anything about the Meereenese population. Is there a middle or working class at all? Or do we talk about a pretty large class of rich slave owners who have essentially outsourced all manual labor to their slaves? We don't know. The impression we get certainly is that there are only slaves and slave owners in the Ghiscari cities - no hint that there are poor free citizens who cannot afford (m)any slaves.

Doesn't mean they don't exist, but the point to assume they do would be when we hear them mentioned. Especially in light of the fact that Ghiscari cities really are freak cities.

Oh, sure, slaves may have wanted to end slavery before. I meant the Meereenese people, not their slaves. We have yet to meet some kind of enlightened Ghiscari slavery abolitionist - and George had about two novels to introduce us to one such.

Outlaws are a thing in Westeros, of course, but nobody ever wanted to abolish the monarchy or the feudal culture as such. Beric's gang still followed 'King Robert', after all.

Sure, and I'd only suggest the latter course if you intend to leave and you have no reason to believe your wishes and commands will be obeyed by whoever you leave in charge when you leave.

So the choice will be join me on my terms or die - either at my hand or of hunger and thirst because I will burn down all your cities and destroy your crops so that you cannot rebuild your society.

Once the Ghiscari cities are gone the international slave trade will collapse and the Free Cities will have a chance to actually permanently abolish slavery. If they had a chance to rebuild then slavery will inevitably return.

Even before her epiphany on the Dothraki Sea, Dany had come to see that her compromises were disgusting.   I've always thought the Shavepate made a deliberately botched assassination attempt, in order to force Dany's hand.

Aenys was like our King Stephen.  A lovely man who was the worst King in our history.  Lords knew they could defy him, and wage private wars, and face no consequences, and the commons suffered as a result.  Whereas, behave like that under Henry I or II, and off came your balls and your hands.  Successful medieval Kings and Queens were tough on crime, and even tougher on criminals.  

So, Dany really does have to put a bit of stick about. I always rather admired the way that Maegor and Visenya took on the Warrior's sons and poor fellows.

 

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany completely sucks as a politician in ADwD. There are some highlights in the first two chapters or something, but her arc really shows how a monarch fails if both her goals and her approach are not suited to resolve the problems at hand. Dany is constantly played by the people around her. They exploit her desires to be a nice queen and no tyrant to get what they want - and they clearly have no intention to live together side by side. 

And, to continue the whole Civil War/Lincoln approach - the Sons of the Harpy clearly are a variation of the Ku-Klux-Klan. 

To the bolded - yes. Have you read Steven Attewell's analysis of this on Tower of the Hand? He points out the parallels between the Sons of the Harpy and the Klan, like how both groups target freedmen who were "rising above their station".

I actually think Dany did ok in some ways. Her securing a trade agreement with Lhazar was a good move. But dealing with the slavers is where she crumpled and really showed her inexperience.

12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Ending slavery inside the city was incremental progress. It's not waste of time. There are tangible benefits for letting the truce stand. She could focus her energies on making sure everyone in her city is free, including the fighters in the pits. Or she could just burn everyone. She could focus her energies on providing an example of a model city, without slavery. Or she could just burn everyone (On top of this, there is a presumption that the chickens will never come home to roost for her decision to do that). The truce would also allow her to take the higher ground as someone who keeps her word and is trustworthy (now she looks like someone who breaks her word just like a slaver); she could learn how to think creatively and outside the box to solve problems; she could work on building something tangible; she would learn things about ruling difficult factions; among other benefits that involve a combination of soft politics and hard deterrence that Jaehaerys used. But this arc is telling us, she's not that kind of Targaryen.  I think he's building her up as a war machine who misguidedly thinks the harshest decisions are always the wisest. 

A model city with no slavery already exists. It's called Braavos. And just across a sea, there's a whole continent where there's no slavery. Slavers Bay wasn't the centre of the slave trade because they lacked good role models, and Yunkaii and Volantis, etc aren't going to give up slaving just because this one shitty city became slave-free. What a weird argument to make.

Anyway, the re-opening of the fighting pits, among other things, shows the city was regressing. Any incrementalism was in a direction the slavers favoured.

People upthread have responded to the Jaehaerys part better I could have, so I'll just refer you to their posts.

12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Wow, did 21st century audiences need a lesson in the evils of slavery? You can't think of a more valuable message for readers? Here he has an opportunity to illustrate something meaningful about power, and lesson is, slavery is bad, we should fight it???? Groundbreaking. 

Well, no one needs to be told that feudalism sucked but that's still a theme explored in the series. You don't like it? Take it up with GRRM.

I will say though, given some of the things that's been said in this thread, it seems there are people who need to be reminded that slavery is bad and the Civil War was good.

12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

You're confusing several identities here. 

The dragon choice is killing innocents and enemies alike, because they represent chaos. That's not "mhysa." Mhysa is a revolutionary figure who stands outside the power structure who cares for people. But as she sits down to rule within the power structure, she has to wear the floppy ears. Something Aerys had to do after he conquered Westeros. Suck it up and adopt the customs. 

If Dany is thinking she can be a dragon and be a mhysa figure and still rule as queen, in both Westeros and Essos, all at the same time, she's wrong. Also, the choices presented her depend on some element of them being real to actually TEMPT her on that path; that's the strongest argument to me for why the peace wasn't fake or a waste of time.

"Man wants to be the king o’ the rabbits, he best wear a pair o’ floppy ears"

Out of context, you could say "floppy ears" simply represents assimilating with her people, but when the rabbits are slavers, it means becoming a slaver. That's obviously in direct conflict with her desire to protect her freedmen - her Mhysa side. "Floppy ears" was not positive symbol.

Thus, she will once again be Dragon and Mhysa, as she once was before she donned the floppy ears, because she can't be Mhysa while suppressing her literal and figurative dragon. Whether that will be relevant to whatever happens in Westeros (and how) remains to be seen.

13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Finally, she is an unreliable narrator. She wants perfection, instantly. Just because she believes she should use dragons to solve her problems, doesn't mean it's the best choice, or that the author is endorsing it (in fact, he talks about the limitations of such power in interviews). I think he's simply raising questions for debate while he also works toward building Dany as a tyrant who wants to burn down the world.   

I can't say what future plans GRRM might have for his characters, but I'm fairly certain he's saying slavery has no merits, not asking us to debate the merits of slavery.

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8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, so the ones who live in the pyramids, theyre pretty well off, "richer then Westerosi lords", these are the great masters. The shavepates never lived in pyramids, so I think its safe to call them the middle class. Now the working class? Id assume so. Even if their work was using a whip.

If pretty much every free Meereenese lives in a proper house and is served and pampered by a slave servant, a slave cook, etc. then slavery is part of everybody's life. In Volantis everybody seems to be profiting from the slavery system considering that the state seems to be owning slaves, too, which are forced to do public labor like military stuff (the tiger soldiers) and remove waste (the garbage slaves).

If Slaver's Bay has a similar system in place then not owning slaves makes you still directly profiting from the slavery system if you live in Meereen.

But considering that Slaver's Bay is a hub of the slave trade slaves that have not yet been trained to be special slaves should be pretty cheap, meaning that pretty much anyone should be able to afford, say, an ugly house slave.

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well Dany wasnt in Aspator for a week before she abolished slavery and started her campaigns so we were never introduced to abolitionists because she defeated slavery so quickly.

If there had been such people both in Yunkai and Meereen they should have come forth and be granted authority. Instead, we only get people who joined her after her victory none of which is said to have been against slavery throughout his career.

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But we were introduced to fans of enlightenment, like Cleos the great.

(He was no slave iirc, thatd put him as an owner of a small business, probably upper middle class)

Cleon the Great was a former slave who worked as a butcher and a cook, indicating (but not confirming) that most craftsmen and workers in Ghiscari society are, in fact, slaves.

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Outlaws are a thing, smallfolk helping outlaws less so, Riverlords helping them even less. Theyre not seeking to abolish feudalism but theyre exposing the fallacy of it. Especially this for Robert business exposes the fallacy, he didnt send them out and hes dead.

The whole thing looks to me like Robin Hood fighting for a dead Richard the Lionheart. That wasn't against monarchy and feudalism, either.

The Riverlords are helping them because they all fight against the Lannisters. If they were trying to establish communism at the end of the war they would be quickly be put down.

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats why she should leave some of her army in Slavers Bay while she heads to the Sunset. Just like Ulysses S Grant, its time to reconstruct Slavers Bay. By stationing loyal soldiers whos orders can be received pretty quickly by railroad, or dragonback. (Though America did have the telegraph, then again theres talk of glass candles...)

She could do that, too, but it would be basically a similar thing she did in Astapor and Yunkai. I doubt she is going to repeat that mistake.

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The international slave trade already took some fatel hits. Whatever Danys plan for Khal Pono is wont help matters either

Dothraki society can only continue if they abolish slavery, too.

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Even before her epiphany on the Dothraki Sea, Dany had come to see that her compromises were disgusting.   I've always thought the Shavepate made a deliberately botched assassination attempt, in order to force Dany's hand.

No, the people behind that were Hizdahr, the Green Grace and, especially, the Yunkai'i elite who likely came to Daznak's Pit to watch how Daenerys Targaryen would die.

But this is not the place to discuss this.

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

To the bolded - yes. Have you read Steven Attewell's analysis of this on Tower of the Hand? He points out the parallels between the Sons of the Harpy and the Klan, like how both groups target freedmen who were "rising above their station".

No, I came up with that all by myself. But it is quite striking, also the targeting of those who collaborate with the slaves, etc. The strongest hint that the Green Grace is the one behind the Sons of the Harpy is the fact that the former slaves who took the shop from Galazza's own cousin - and who wanted compensation from Dany - are targeted. Dany herself doesn't see the connection because some time has passed and she has a lot on her mind, but the reader can and should see that connection.

Just as us learning Hizdahr likes spicy food later gives away his lie that hot spices don't agree with him (when Selmy questions him).

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I actually think Dany did ok in some ways. Her securing a trade agreement with Lhazar was a good move. But dealing with the slavers is where she crumpled and really showed her inexperience.

Yeah, the trade agreement and her original intention to be a just queen for all was pretty good. The problem is that she never draw up a proper political agenda how things are going to be run. She allowed her various advisers to influence and slowly undermine and twist her original intentions.

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I can't say what future plans GRRM might have for his characters, but I'm fairly certain he's saying slavery has no merits, not asking us to debate the merits of slavery.

It is actually be pretty disgusting to read people using Dany's approach to slavery as means to vilify her. That makes you half (or fully) a slavery apologist yourself.

I mean, the very idea that the Astapori should have been treated fairly is, frankly, ridiculous if you think what they do for a living. How many people they have tortured and would continue to torture if nobody put a stop to that. Nobody says Dany killed them all only out of the goodness of her heart, but it is, in the end, the cruelty and malice she saw in the slavers there which caused her to turn the weapons they themselves created against them.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And that's what it takes to be a king in this shitty world. People only respect you if they know you have teeth. That you will carry out your threats if they push you, that you will stand up to defend your friends when pushed around, etc. Dany is no way like that in ADwD. She is unwilling to become a butcher even if that's necessary to accomplish what she wants - she isn't even to use her hostages as hostages are used. She is like Jaehaerys I's father King Aenys in ADwD. She allows herself to be pushed around, especially by the Green Grace. She is even worse then Aenys when you consider that she allowed them to have her go through that ugly Ghiscari marriage ritual where she is essentially chained to her husband (King Aenys had at least the grace to insist on the continuation of his family tradition).

I do agree for once with Daario and Plumm on that matter, the whole "I'm not a butcher thing" makes no sense when up until that point, Dany's been nothing but one, she even specifies to that she din't mind killing those she considers her enemies, tho she won't kill innocents, that Dany, the same who butchered 163 for what they did to innocent children,  that Dany vanish in Adwd and as you say, Aenys emerges, the Slaver Bay and Co, is a very non subtle homage of the South post civil war ans¡d the reconstruction era and the Harpies coercing free slaves and trying to get rid of scalawags like Shavepate and redeemed Meeren.

There is no posible compromise in this, as it was in Westeros where Aegon I needed only not interfere with the Faith and the rest of religions and could reign in peace, slavery and slave society is something more than economy, it's  cultural, personal, slavery as it was in the South, is the cornestone of their civilization and this is how it's understood and protected by the harpies,  believing that a compromise can be made is fooling one self.

That doesn't mean the campaign won't teach Dany the wrong lessons and would cement her fall to a Tyrant, something i dislike btw every ending but mad, cause of genetics,  Dany would be better imo, but to believe that Dany realizing she has to break the Slavers bay will so slavery can end, it's not craziness. Until the Faith was not broken, no solution could ever be made, Aegon I and the High Septon always reigned with a Damocles sword. 

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On 9/5/2019 at 12:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

That is more about aristocratic and royal elitism. But, sure, one of the rarely discussed roots of racism is actually the construct of special noble or royal blood evident in all aristocratic and monarchistic societies.

The Targaryens are only different in degree there. It doesn't really matter whether you only marry your sisters or merely your own noble peers who are, for the most part, your cousins to various degrees (which is what the rest of the nobility of Westeros do).

Looked at plainly, yes. But look closer at the "blood of the dragon must remain pure"-wisdom and the widespread notion that "their purple eyes and silver hair set them apart from common men" and it sure smells like racism. Magically achieved racism but still. Shall we call it magicism? Varamyr is being a magicist when discarding non-warg offspring as "runts"? No, of course not - Varamyr's behaviour is based on what they can do, not what they look like. If individual value is based on racial typical looks its textbook racism.

On 9/5/2019 at 12:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

Considering it is five slaves on one free Volantene and the entire Volantene military are slaves it is quite clear how this will turn out. The slaves will rise up and put down all members of the Old Blood besides those few they might overlook/be able to flee.

I mean, it is pretty clear that the Widow of the Waterfront is going to become a future triarch, possibly the only triarch. And she is not going to be a merciful mistress...

Numerally slaves have the advantage, certainly. Volantis has a lot of sellswords too though. Set them to defend the black wall and we at least get a siege.

I'd like very much to get peek behind that wall and if tWotW is my ticket I very much hope she'll do it and tell Dany the tale when they meet. But idk, still have it in the back of my head that tWotW has a bunch of enemies that will use the chaos to off her before it can happen.

On 9/5/2019 at 12:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

I really don't see the corruption there. It is like saying the Freys and Boltons are there to corrupt the Starks because they desire vengeance.

I know it's dumb. But I have started to suspect the slavers awfulness will be used to turn Dany into something equally awful in time. I've always felt that stomping slavers into the ground is an end that justifies the means but certain events earlier this summer has made me struggle with keeping ill notions at bay. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If pretty much every free Meereenese lives in a proper house and is served and pampered by a slave servant, a slave cook, etc. then slavery is part of everybody's life. In Volantis everybody seems to be profiting from the slavery system considering that the state seems to be owning slaves, too, which are forced to do public labor like military stuff (the tiger soldiers) and remove waste (the garbage slaves).

If Slaver's Bay has a similar system in place then not owning slaves makes you still directly profiting from the slavery system if you live in Meereen.

But considering that Slaver's Bay is a hub of the slave trade slaves that have not yet been trained to be special slaves should be pretty cheap, meaning that pretty much anyone should be able to afford, say, an ugly house slave.

If there had been such people both in Yunkai and Meereen they should have come forth and be granted authority. Instead, we only get people who joined her after her victory none of which is said to have been against slavery throughout his career.

Cleon the Great was a former slave who worked as a butcher and a cook, indicating (but not confirming) that most craftsmen and workers in Ghiscari society are, in fact, slaves.

The whole thing looks to me like Robin Hood fighting for a dead Richard the Lionheart. That wasn't against monarchy and feudalism, either.

The Riverlords are helping them because they all fight against the Lannisters. If they were trying to establish communism at the end of the war they would be quickly be put down.

She could do that, too, but it would be basically a similar thing she did in Astapor and Yunkai. I doubt she is going to repeat that mistake.

Dothraki society can only continue if they abolish slavery, too.

No, the people behind that were Hizdahr, the Green Grace and, especially, the Yunkai'i elite who likely came to Daznak's Pit to watch how Daenerys Targaryen would die.

But this is not the place to discuss this.

No, I came up with that all by myself. But it is quite striking, also the targeting of those who collaborate with the slaves, etc. The strongest hint that the Green Grace is the one behind the Sons of the Harpy is the fact that the former slaves who took the shop from Galazza's own cousin - and who wanted compensation from Dany - are targeted. Dany herself doesn't see the connection because some time has passed and she has a lot on her mind, but the reader can and should see that connection.

Just as us learning Hizdahr likes spicy food later gives away his lie that hot spices don't agree with him (when Selmy questions him).

Yeah, the trade agreement and her original intention to be a just queen for all was pretty good. The problem is that she never draw up a proper political agenda how things are going to be run. She allowed her various advisers to influence and slowly undermine and twist her original intentions.

It is actually be pretty disgusting to read people using Dany's approach to slavery as means to vilify her. That makes you half (or fully) a slavery apologist yourself.

I mean, the very idea that the Astapori should have been treated fairly is, frankly, ridiculous if you think what they do for a living. How many people they have tortured and would continue to torture if nobody put a stop to that. Nobody says Dany killed them all only out of the goodness of her heart, but it is, in the end, the cruelty and malice she saw in the slavers there which caused her to turn the weapons they themselves created against them.

I think that Dany took out the Astapori elite, and her orders were fairly discriminate.  We know that most free Astapori survived her attack, because Cleon enslaved them.

I don't think Martin would expect us to endorse every act of violence against slavers and their families, but I certainly think he would expect us to view Dany's campaign as righteous.  Slavers Bay is his version of Mordor.

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4 hours ago, frenin said:

I do agree for once with Daario and Plumm on that matter, the whole "I'm not a butcher thing" makes no sense when up until that point, Dany's been nothing but one, she even specifies to that she din't mind killing those she considers her enemies, tho she won't kill innocents, that Dany, the same who butchered 163 for what they did to innocent children,  that Dany vanish in Adwd and as you say, Aenys emerges, the Slaver Bay and Co, is a very non subtle homage of the South post civil war ans¡d the reconstruction era and the Harpies coercing free slaves and trying to get rid of scalawags like Shavepate and redeemed Meeren.

Sure, there is a difference between cruelty in war and cruelty in peace time - and between being a just ruler and a tyrant. Dany did punish the slavers for their murder and allowed them to be killed during war, but she does not want to continue to butcher them. As an intention that is admirable, it is just not very realistic if the circumstances are such that they continue to plot against her and plan to restore slavery.

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

Looked at plainly, yes. But look closer at the "blood of the dragon must remain pure"-wisdom and the widespread notion that "their purple eyes and silver hair set them apart from common men" and it sure smells like racism. Magically achieved racism but still. Shall we call it magicism? Varamyr is being a magicist when discarding non-warg offspring as "runts"? No, of course not - Varamyr's behaviour is based on what they can do, not what they look like. If individual value is based on racial typical looks its textbook racism.

It makes no sense to see the Targaryens as 'a race'. They are just a family and the Targaryens who are Targaryens are Targaryens no matter how they look - Alysanne Targaryen, Alyssa Targaryen, Rhaenys Targaryen, Baelor Targaryen, Duncan Targaryen, Rhaenys Targaryen all were Targaryens no matter that they did not look like prototypical Valyrians.

However, aristocratic elistism is based on the idea that special noble or royal blood sets you apart from lesser men, causing you to only marry among a special group of people. The point of that is to keep the bloodlines pure and to continue to breed only those special people who are qualified to rule. The reason why nobles don't intermarry with peasants is that this could essentially cause them to lose the abilities to lead and rule.

And that is racist and historically actually one of the roots of modern racism - as modernity approached people started to extend the special in-groups. Not only the English aristocracy was 'special and superior to lesser men' but also all the English (and Germanic) people, etc.

In a sense, the entire aristocracy of Westeros count as a 'special race of people' set apart from lesser men by breeding. That is true there as it is in real world nobility.

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

Numerally slaves have the advantage, certainly. Volantis has a lot of sellswords too though. Set them to defend the black wall and we at least get a siege.

There are no Volantene sellswords mentioned that I'm aware of. The Volantenes use their own standing military and navy - which are tiger slaves. The Three Daughters employ sellswords companies and also have citizens serving in their military (as FaB revealed for Lys at least) but this has not yet been confirmed for the Volantenes.

I doubt that filthy sellswords are allowed to pass beyond the black wall. If the Old Blood have soldiers they are likely Unsullied and house slaves, etc. And, of course, the tiger soldiers might man the defenses on the wall in the name of the triarchs.

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

I'd like very much to get peek behind that wall and if tWotW is my ticket I very much hope she'll do it and tell Dany the tale when they meet. But idk, still have it in the back of my head that tWotW has a bunch of enemies that will use the chaos to off her before it can happen.

We will have to wait and see how things unfold in Volantis. Could happen off-screen, could only happen when Dany shows up above the city on Drogon. But I'm sure the tiger soldiers going to Volantis will turn on their masters as soon as Moqorro gives the sign.

4 hours ago, Sigella said:

I know it's dumb. But I have started to suspect the slavers awfulness will be used to turn Dany into something equally awful in time. I've always felt that stomping slavers into the ground is an end that justifies the means but certain events earlier this summer has made me struggle with keeping ill notions at bay. 

That sounds like nothing George would do. If Dany deals harshly with the Westerosi it will be because of the Second Dance of the Dragons - and, frankly, Aegon is no hero in this story. I don't see Dany becoming 'evil' fighting him or any of the other nut cases (Euron, Cersei, Littlefinger, Stannis, etc.).

She might still fail and die but not in the way madmen would write it.

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On 8/30/2019 at 10:20 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I don't get the sense that it was strategic. She couldn't bring herself to harm the child hostages in Meereen, after all. I think she just considers 13 to be the age of adulthood (or at least the age at which one bears the responsibilities of adults), since that's when she had to grow up.

That may be but there is also a subtle but real difference.  The hostages in Meereen have been defeated.  In other words, yes their families are in active soft rebellion, but she has already defeated them on the battlefield.  In Astapor, she was leading a rebellion.  Stannis, Ned, and Tywin would have killed those cup bearers in Meereen, and perhaps she may have to do that if the slavers continue their rebellion.  I would not be against killing the cup bearers.  

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If pretty much every free Meereenese lives in a proper house and is served and pampered by a slave servant, a slave cook, etc. then slavery is part of everybody's life. In Volantis everybody seems to be profiting from the slavery system considering that the state seems to be owning slaves, too, which are forced to do public labor like military stuff (the tiger soldiers) and remove waste (the garbage slaves).

If Slaver's Bay has a similar system in place then not owning slaves makes you still directly profiting from the slavery system if you live in Meereen.

But considering that Slaver's Bay is a hub of the slave trade slaves that have not yet been trained to be special slaves should be pretty cheap, meaning that pretty much anyone should be able to afford, say, an ugly house slave.

Alright. So the great masters dont have to work, maybe paperwork and what not. But maybe/probably they used freemen to do all that, along with Nurse's type of job. I suppose all the generals and officers were also freemen. 

Every freeborn in SB was profiting of slavery, it seems like the only jobs there were in civil service or slavery.

But still after Dany took the city the men shaved their heads in a symbolic turn of their culture. Now Dany herself isnt sure if all shavepates are earnest (let alone The Shavepate lol) but they younger generations will see it and the slaving ways of the Ghiscari expunged.

Dany is turning her enemies into subjects, burning SB wouldn't be logical

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cleon the Great was a former slave who worked as a butcher and a cook, indicating (but not confirming) that most craftsmen and workers in Ghiscari society are, in fact, slaves.

Word. My mistake. Thanks

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The whole thing looks to me like Robin Hood fighting for a dead Richard the Lionheart. That wasn't against monarchy and feudalism, either.

The Riverlords are helping them because they all fight against the Lannisters. If they were trying to establish communism at the end of the war they would be quickly be put down.

I thought Richard was alive and fighting in the crusades.

See, they are kinda red (just look at Thoros lol) I didn't even mention it. I mean who goes around giving titles to peasents?

So, if it were to happen anywhere... The last head honcho of the Riverlands gave up his title and castle for the sake of the people... :commie:

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She could do that, too, but it would be basically a similar thing she did in Astapor and Yunkai. I doubt she is going to repeat that mistake.

Just tweek the mistakes. In Astapor she didnt leave troops behind to defend the new regime. In Yunkai she let the old regime stay in power.

This is clsssic Andrew Johnson stuff, keeping the plantation owners in charge of the municipalities and allowing criminals and militias to assemble like they werent just defeated in war.

Fuck that, reconstruction time lol

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dothraki society can only continue if they abolish slavery, too.

(Oh 19th century America, how relevant you are lol) 

So the Dothraki, although similar to the Mongols, are easily comparable to the Comanche. (A Native American tribe, supposedly the best archers on horseback, they were a pretty fearsome lot defeating armies of Spanish, Mexican, Confederate and American despite their few numbers) Once the civil war ended their days were numbered before America forced them on the reservation. This is largely due in part to America having an actual standing army, but mainly because they killed most of the buffalo, the Comanches number one resourse (food, clothing, shields, etc), but also because slaverys illigal. Who can the Comanche sell slaves (their number two resource) to now that there are no slavers? 

The days of Khallasars roaming the Dothraki Sea are at an end, like Braves of the Great Plains

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She might still fail and die but not in the way madmen would write it.

As long as shes smiling :)

 

 

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20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It makes no sense to see the Targaryens as 'a race'. They are just a family and the Targaryens who are Targaryens are Targaryens no matter how they look - Alysanne Targaryen, Alyssa Targaryen, Rhaenys Targaryen, Baelor Targaryen, Duncan Targaryen, Rhaenys Targaryen all were Targaryens no matter that they did not look like prototypical Valyrians.

I muddled it up perhaps: didn't mean Targs were a race, but valyrians are: and those things I quoted are things said about valyrians which is textbook racism. And running with it I said Targs could be a parallel to modern american racism. 

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In a sense, the entire aristocracy of Westeros count as a 'special race of people' set apart from lesser men by breeding. That is true there as it is in real world nobility.

This is certainly true, "highborn" vs "lowborn" or "born on the wrong side of the blanket", but its not a race thing when they are all caucasian but a sociological hierarchy. Targs as valyrians differ with silver hair and purple eyes found only in valyrians.

It does reminisce old european aristocracy's history of "blue blood", "visible veins in the temples", "pale skin" and what have you, but the big diff is whether those traits are objectively racial or not. The notion of "blue blood" was entirely made up, and the other "traits" weren't exclusively aristocratic either.

Purple eyes and silver hair is textually established as exclusively valyrian traits. (disregarding the Dayne mystery)

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There are no Volantene sellswords mentioned that I'm aware of. The Volantenes use their own standing military and navy - which are tiger slaves. The Three Daughters employ sellswords companies and also have citizens serving in their military (as FaB revealed for Lys at least) but this has not yet been confirmed for the Volantenes.

I doubt that filthy sellswords are allowed to pass beyond the black wall. If the Old Blood have soldiers they are likely Unsullied and house slaves, etc. And, of course, the tiger soldiers might man the defenses on the wall in the name of the triarchs.

Hm! I was sure that Volantis primarily had sellsword companies to do their wars for them but now I can't find anything to support it :P 

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That sounds like nothing George would do. If Dany deals harshly with the Westerosi it will be because of the Second Dance of the Dragons - and, frankly, Aegon is no hero in this story. I don't see Dany becoming 'evil' fighting him or any of the other nut cases (Euron, Cersei, Littlefinger, Stannis, etc.).

She might still fail and die but not in the way madmen would write it.

I pray you're in the right about this.

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1 hour ago, Sigella said:

I muddled it up perhaps: didn't mean Targs were a race, but valyrians are: and those things I quoted are things said about valyrians which is textbook racism. And running with it I said Targs could be a parallel to modern american racism.

The Valyrians as such count, perhaps, as 'a race' (if we use that type - scientifically there are no 'human races') but we have no evidence that their slavery was based on or justified by race the way it was in America. I mean, we do have the example of slavery in Lys where the Valyrian elite with striking Valyrian features breed even more strikingly looking Valyrian slaves. If you live in Lys your looks don't give away whether you are master or slave.

And, one imagines, that this was not so different in Valyria of old. Valyrians of ancient houses and high birth likely could becomes slaves, too, if they lost their fortunes and became indebted to their rivals, etc.

It seems clear that the bulk of the slaves would have been foreigners and barbarians, but we also know that Valyria the city was a melting pot, so one assumes that only the Valyrian elites - the dragonlords, sorcerer princes, wealthy lords freeholder, etc. - married among themselves and their sisters, in a similar 'aristocratic racisim' as the Westerosi nobility.

But one can assume that the Valyrians considered themselves to be the rulers of the world, the apex of civilization, and looked down on the rest of the world the way Europeans and Americans do to this day. We also see this kind of behavior with the Qartheen or even the Dothraki in the books.

The Westerosi seem to be the greatest racists and bigots in Martinworld if we think how the Kingslanders and especially Torrhen Manderly treated Larra Rogare and her brothers.

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

This is certainly true, "highborn" vs "lowborn" or "born on the wrong side of the blanket", but its not a race thing when they are all caucasian but a sociological hierarchy. Targs as valyrians differ with silver hair and purple eyes found only in valyrians.

The Targaryens are set apart from their subjects, but that's more royal propaganda, they are not seen as a proper 'race' - unless we use that term also for a single family (which I'd not do - but we can use it, I think, for the noble class as such).

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

It does reminisce old european aristocracy's history of "blue blood", "visible veins in the temples", "pale skin" and what have you, but the big diff is whether those traits are objectively racial or not. The notion of "blue blood" was entirely made up, and the other "traits" weren't exclusively aristocratic either.

Racial differences are not objective but, to various degrees, constructed. There were historical eras when Asian people were described as white, and American natives not as red, etc.

Human skin color is much more differentiated than the constructed, so-called races imply. But in the end the crucial aspects are not the physical looks but (completely made up) claims about intelligence, strength, etc. that allow racists to differentiate between ruling races and slave races - and those aspects very much are part of an aristocratic society.

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Purple eyes and silver hair is textually established as exclusively valyrian traits. (disregarding the Dayne mystery)

Yeah, but as I showed above looking Valyrian doesn't make you a member of the ruling class of any society. Not even in Westeros - as people like Gaemon Palehair and the Hull boys (before they were legitimized) show.

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

I pray you're in the right about this.

George is never going to give any of his POVs (and a major protagonist at that) the kind of treatment Dany got in the show. The very idea is ridiculous.

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