Dany and child murder

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Meereen would actually be an easily defensible city to beat back Volantis if there was a clear cut line between external aggressor and defender, which the peace would have helped with. It was important that the shadow war stop, to unite against any other attacks and also to identify people who were still going to work with her. Now it’s just chaos and more people will die than is necessary because she can’t tell friend from foe.

Hizdahr is one example of how slavery can be ended with mercantilism. When the slave market crashed he made a different investment. So they can be reasoned with and sometimes it’s not necessary to burn them allz to send a message. Barth says the unspoken threat is more useful than the obvious one. Dany hasn’t really grasped subtlety so she will probably nuke lots of people, including reasonable opportunists who would have worked with her. 

Dany can’t fix these regions by herself across an entire continent in a short time, so compromising for the time being, not actually riding dragons to burn people but keeping them around, and only focusing on Meereen was working.

Perhaps, but Volantis is the regional superpower.  And, they will have local allies.

Really, the East is a powder keg, and Daenerys was the spark that lit it.

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Perhaps, but Volantis is the regional superpower.  And, they will have local allies.

Really, the East is a powder keg, and Daenerys was the spark that lit it.

Volantis could also be swallowed up in slave revolts. What’s the bigger message overall. It seems like it’s about how to achieve political goals. Dany used her wits and her brain and got a good result, just like the other characters who are seen as wise because they actually built something (Jaehaerys, Daeron, Brandon). The characters who blow shit up and just react on emotions and are unable to make achievements last are devolving. Unfortunately, that’s Dany.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

On 9/2/2019 at 12:55 PM, SeanF said:

All sympathetic characters in this series are shades of grey.  Every one.  I'm confident that Daenerys will never turn into the mad Nazi/Satan travesty that D & D gave us.  For one thing, D & D whitewashed Tyrion, whereas Martin has described Tyrion as "the villain (but we all love a good villain)."  Why would he then want to turn Daenerys into a bigger villain?

I do think her story will go down a darker path in TWOW, however. 

Yes, every character is a shade of grey. But I think that these characters darken and lighten. Depending on what GRRM throws at them. I didn't watch The Abomination, but I understand they turned her into a moustache twirling villain. 

I don't think GRRM wants to turn Dany into a villain. No more than he wanted to kill Rob Stark and Grey Wind and Catelyn. But I do think that given the story so far, he will show us what he believes to be the true cost of power. Fire and Blood. Unless Dany is going to cook up some black pudding for her people, it can only mean that she will use what she has at her disposal to win. Dragons and potentially Dothraki and Iron Born. And if the best council she has is a telepathic witch and a vengeful dwarf, what hope has she of choosing another path? All signs point to her turning to a very dark shade of grey imo. 

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Yes, every character is a shade of grey. But I think that these characters darken and lighten. Depending on what GRRM throws at them. I didn't watch The Abomination, but I understand they turned her into a moustache twirling villain. 

I don't think GRRM wants to turn Dany into a villain. No more than he wanted to kill Rob Stark and Grey Wind and Catelyn. But I do think that given the story so far, he will show us what he believes to be the true cost of power. Fire and Blood. Unless Dany is going to cook up some black pudding for her people, it can only mean that she will use what she has at her disposal to win. Dragons and potentially Dothraki and Iron Born. And if the best council she has is a telepathic witch and a vengeful dwarf, what hope has she of choosing another path? All signs point to her turning to a very dark shade of grey imo. 

It's a question of how dark? I think.

Returning to Meereen after the battle, with the Dothraki, and carrying out a wave of executions, is probably a given.  But then what?  I don't buy Brynden Fish's theory that she'll then just burn Meereen to the ground.  I think she'd be more likely to leave it behind under the rule of the Shavepate - which is problematic in itself.  

Does she then become Timur the Lame, burning and pillaging across Essos, and leaving pyramids of heads in her wake?  Or something far more limited?  It's certainly the case that some of the most sinister people in the series are all seeking her out, and have their own reasons for wanting to enter her service.

Fan reactions would be interesting, if she turned into Timur.  I think a lot of people would hail her as a "badass", even as others denounced her as a butcher.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Didn't the Unsullied visit brothels too? I'm pretty sure the prostitutes weren't providing their time for free, even if all they were doing was literally laying together. So the Unsullied must have received some sort of payment.

Facts! Good call. Before he was murdered Stalwart Shield gave "coin" to cuddle with the hookers. 

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's a good book. I read somewhere that George says it's his favorite of the books he has written. It's no aSoIaF but good still. 

Really? I liked Tuff Voyaging more, and obviously all asoiaf and d&e (well, maybe not sworn sword lol) 

10 hours ago, Centurion Piso said:

I am sold.  It is going to be my next reading material.  

Its GRRM, so im not gonna argue with you lol, but I wouldn't call it a "recommendation", as I found the characters and plot somewhat lacking, not to mention the racist undertones were abit overwhelming, however the deep sout of the 1850s was pretty terrible so it does help set the mood. The rest of his worldbuilding is frankly beautiful, an America I never knew... Maybe I am recommending it lol

10 hours ago, Centurion Piso said:

You've got me curious.  I will check out that book.  Speaking of the U.S. civil war.  That didn't get resolved peacefully.  The south gave all kinds of excuses, even the bible, to justify slavery.  It failed on every moral test.  Young boys fought for the south and they were killed.  Age isn't really a factor.  It's war.  The question has to be asked:  did the slavers spare children because of their age?  Nope.  They gave no mercy so why should they get any mercy.  To the OP, the execution of every master 12 years and older is as close to getting justice as we've gotten in the series.  

 

More Americans died from 1861-1865 then any other time in our history. There was nothing peaceful about the abolition of slavery, although both Washington and Jefferson believed slavery will end soon and peacefully. (both owned slaves). The Civil War was supposedly the first case of "total war", but whether it was the first second or hundredth, the outcame was the same, Sherman burned Atlanta and whatever else he could find. Fire and Blood

 Slavery was a cornerstone of the South for hundreds of years and while they bicthed about "state rights" they oversaw the federal laws of the 3/5 compromise in the making of our constitution and the fugitive slave act right before the civil war (both truly egregious mandates). Jefferson said it is evident that all men are free, but whats also evident is that those Virginians would never choose to put that in practice.

The comparisons of Mereen and the south are considerable. However the comparison of Dany and Lincoln are also staggering. Mainly, Dany and Lincoln may believe its the duty of all god fearing men to erase evil, but they have another duty. By all rights and laws they are the sovereign of their nation and will commit acts of humanity, and shall we say, less humane, in the preservation of their country

[Lord Varys]

There has to be bloodshed to get rid of slavery. Dany is basically George's Abraham Lincoln - and last time I looked Abe didn't get the South to abandon slavery during polite conversation drinking tea.

But unlike with Lincoln, there won't be a reconstruction after the war - no, the slavers will all be killed, along with all the people who don't give up the concept of slavery or want to continue it in changed form. This can, of course, also include slaves who are set in their ways and oppose change.

Revolutions and real societal change doesn't come cheap. Blood has to be spilled.

It would have been better if the American slaves had risen up collectively against their slavers, butchering their masters in the dozens and hundreds, and doing to their families the same thing their masters had done to them for generations - but that never happened. Had it happened America might be less racist today.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

37 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Really? I liked Tuff Voyaging more, and obviously all asoiaf and d&e (well, maybe not sworn sword lol) 

Yeah I mean I thought it was a decent book. I like the asoiaf & d&e better but it was a good read. I haven't read Tuff Voyaging, what is it about? 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

42 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's a question of how dark? I think.

Returning to Meereen after the battle, with the Dothraki, and carrying out a wave of executions, is probably a given.  But then what?  I don't buy Brynden Fish's theory that she'll then just burn Meereen to the ground.  I think she'd be more likely to leave it behind under the rule of the Shavepate - which is problematic in itself.  

Does she then become Timur the Lame, burning and pillaging across Essos, and leaving pyramids of heads in her wake?  Or something far more limited?  It's certainly the case that some of the most sinister people in the series are all seeking her out, and have their own reasons for wanting to enter her service.

Fan reactions would be interesting, if she turned into Timur.  I think a lot of people would hail her as a "badass", even as others denounced her as a butcher.

Very dark, I suspect. I don't blame Brynden B Fish for thinking that way. We need only look into her toolbox to see that it's all hammers - blunt instruments to wreak havoc. By land (Dothraki) by sea (IB) and by air (dragons). And then when we look at her objectives, what else can she do other than wage war on anyone who defies her? Her experience of 'playing the game' in Mereen is an overwhelmingly negative one. I think the fate of Mereen depends on what Dany see's when she returns to it. If the city goes to hell, she might just finish it off/ make an example of it. Dragons plant no trees. 

Strongly agree with that last part. For many, the ends justify the means. But I see it more as Dany embracing what she is instead of struggling with it. A conqueror. I had to google Timur. And I do see the potential for her to become a similar figure in the eyes of some. She wants to be Rhaegar (who doesn't?) but Timur may well be a more accurate comparison by the end of the story. It reminds me of Jaime when he thinks back on who he wanted to be and compares that to who he is now. 

It's annoying. Her mentors have all been pretty useless and have failed her to the point where she can only revert to type.  The story needs to provide her with someone who isn't an utter creep. A someone who doesn't have ulterior motives. 

[Hugorfonics]

44 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah I mean I thought it was a decent book. I like the asoiaf & d&e better but it was a good read. 

Word. Decent book. Doesn't feel fair to compare it to asoiaf, because nothing does

46 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 I haven't read Tuff Voyaging, what is it about? 

Its been a few years, but I remember a team of cuthroat mercenaries, a 3D printer for tyrannosaurus rexs and a simple man with a god complex, but the best description I could give would be psychic cats

 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Revolutions and real societal change doesn't come cheap. Blood has to be spilled.

It would have been better if the American slaves had risen up collectively against their slavers, butchering their masters in the dozens and hundreds, and doing to their families the same thing their masters had done to them for generations - but that never happened. Had it happened America might be less racist today.

You know, I'm not so sure. If violence is the only course of action open to you then you re-create the rule of might is right. Turning slavers into slaves would only be bloody vengeance.  You'd be saying "slavery is fine, so long as we're not the ones being enslaved." There must be examples of a better way to follow. How does a greater society develop into something more if it's focus is to turn tables instead of building new ones?

What I see is an example of someone dead-set to change things in the here and now. Within their own lifetime. Which is natural. But I think it's one of the biggest flaws in mankind. 

If Dany actually had something tangible to offer freed men, instead of merely offering it as an empty token, she may of seen something different happening in Mereen. If she gradually emancipated the slaves through law and legislation she may of built a new city over time. Instead, she goes all Stannis Baratheon on them and just slams the door. And promptly gives them cause to fight her.
Viable alternatives can be just as effective as threats of violence. If I want your money, I could wave my knife at you and demand it. Alternatively, I could whittle you a nice back-scratcher and earn your money that way.  It'd be a harder path. It'd take longer. But it's better for everyone. 

Violence was necessary to conquer the city. She couldn't do a damn thing outside of it's walls. But the abolition of slavery is a much greater effort imo. Their entire culture was built around it. It was never just going to go away. Hence I don't think it's unlikely that she'll eventually return, see it's rotten core, and burn it to the ground. Everything she wants to do has to happen within her own lifetime. And she doesn't have the time to babysit them.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah I mean I thought it was a decent book. I like the asoiaf & d&e better but it was a good read. I haven't read Tuff Voyaging, what is it about? 

A guy flies through space with his telepathic cats looking for work. His ship is some kind of bio weapon that creates all manner of creatures, designed to fit the specifications of a planets needs. Or, I should say, the needs of it's human inhabitants. Definitely worth a read. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. Decent book. Doesn't feel fair to compare it to asoiaf, because nothing does

For sure. Have you ever read the Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon? It's up there with aSoIaF for me. 

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its been a few years, but I remember a team of cuthroat mercenaries, a 3D printer for tyrannosaurus rexs and a simple man with a god complex, but the best description I could give would be psychic cats

 

5 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

A guy flies through space with his telepathic cats looking for work. His ship is some kind of bio weapon that creates all manner of creatures, designed to fit the specifications of a planets needs. Or, I should say, the needs of it's human inhabitants. Definitely worth a read. 

Sounds like I've found my next read! Thanks! 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Very dark, I suspect. I don't blame Brynden B Fish for thinking that way. We need only look into her toolbox to see that it's all hammers - blunt instruments to wreak havoc. By land (Dothraki) by sea (IB) and by air (dragons). And then when we look at her objectives, what else can she do other than wage war on anyone who defies her? Her experience of 'playing the game' in Mereen is an overwhelmingly negative one. I think the fate of Mereen depends on what Dany see's when she returns to it. If the city goes to hell, she might just finish it off/ make an example of it. Dragons plant no trees. 

Strongly agree with that last part. For many, the ends justify the means. But I see it more as Dany embracing what she is instead of struggling with it. A conqueror. I had to google Timur. And I do see the potential for her to become a similar figure in the eyes of some. She wants to be Rhaegar (who doesn't?) but Timur may well be a more accurate comparison by the end of the story. It reminds me of Jaime when he thinks back on who he wanted to be and compares that to who he is now. 

It's annoying. Her mentors have all been pretty useless and have failed her to the point where she can only revert to type.  The story needs to provide her with someone who isn't an utter creep. A someone who doesn't have ulterior motives. 

It's terribly easy to view great conquerors through rose-tinted spectacles, and not really appreciate the horror of passages like:-

"The Great Khan's favourite grandson had died in the assault.  Therefore, when the city fell, not a living thing was left within its walls."

If, that's how Dany's story goes, I imagine that Martin will show us how the sausage is made.

[Anck Su Namun]

23 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So I just read this book Fevere Dream by GRRM. It takes place in the southern U.S pre civil war. The protagonist, Abner Marsh, who did not consider himself an abolitionist eventually reached this conclusion

Off topic but do you think Abner and Bowen have a similar role in their respective stories?  

[Hodor the Articulate]

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Evil slavers vs. Dany, the bright and shiny beacon of goodness. Harry Potter is more nuanced for fuck’s sake. 

This isn’t a society where everyone is homogeneous , and the villains aren’t as clear cut as you’d like them to be just so your fav can look like the hero. We know GRRM doesn’t do simple, clear cut, easy heroes vs. villains and here is no exception. 

Read the Meerenese Blot sometime, it lays it all out:

[snip'd for length]

I've already read the Meereenese Blot, thanks.  First of all, the author of those essays is not GRRM so why are you quoting them a if they've already read TWOW?

Second, I think they're wrong. As I alluded to before, Dany's marriage to Hizdar and her massive concessions to the slavers hasn't created real lasting peace (and what respite they've given her came at the cost of restoring Great Masters almost to their former status). The Volantis fleet is still heading to Meereen, and not to throw Dany a fighting-pit-grand-reopening bash.  As @SeanF said, Dany is an existential threat to them. She's a threat to anyone who stands to profit from the slave trade, and that's a good chunk of the continent.

I never said the slavers were homogeneous. I'm just not going to entertain the idea that the Great Masters don't want their slaves back, or that they'd have peacefully co-operated had Dany just not punished the poor misunderstood woobies for crucifying over 100 children.

[Hodor the Articulate]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It's annoying. Her mentors have all been pretty useless and have failed her to the point where she can only revert to type.  The story needs to provide her with someone who isn't an utter creep. A someone who doesn't have ulterior motives. 

I will never forgive Sam for leaving Aemon out in the rain. Then again, his advice to Jon wasn't entirely helpful.

[SeanF]

14 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I've already read the Meereenese Blot, thanks.  First of all, the author of those essays is not GRRM so why are you quoting them a if they've already read TWOW?

Second, I think they're wrong. As I alluded to before, Dany's marriage to Hizdar and her massive concessions to the slavers hasn't created real lasting peace (and what respite they've given her came at the cost of restoring Great Masters almost to their former status). The Volantis fleet is still heading to Meereen, and not to throw Dany a fighting-pit-grand-reopening bash.  As @SeanF said, Dany is an existential threat to them. She's a threat to anyone who stands to profit from the slave trade, and that's a good chunk of the continent.

I never said the slavers were homogeneous. I'm just not going to entertain the idea that the Great Masters don't want their slaves back, or that they'd have peacefully co-operated had Dany just not punished the poor misunderstood woobies for crucifying over 100 children.

Paradoxically, I think the Volantenes will end up providing Dany with a massive invasion fleet, because a great many of their soldiers and sailors will revolt in her favour.

Free people relying on slave soldiers to defend them has always struck me as an exceptionally stupid thing to do, and yet it has happened very frequently in history (eg Janissaries, Mamelukes). The slave soldiers eventually develop their own esprit de corps, and realise they can rule the place themselves.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For sure. Have you ever read the Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon? It's up there with aSoIaF for me. 

Oh cool, sounds familiar but Ive never read it. Ill look into it. Thanks ( I did thoroughly enjoy Romance of Three Kingdoms by Luo Gongzhou in the 13th century, which also draws comparisons to asoiaf)

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

It's terribly easy to view great conquerors through rose-tinted spectacles, and not really appreciate the horror of passages like:-

"The Great Khan's favourite grandson had died in the assault.  Therefore, when the city fell, not a living thing was left within its walls."

If, that's how Dany's story goes, I imagine that Martin will show us how the sausage is made.

Very Cao Caoish

1 hour ago, Anck Su Namun said:

Off topic but do you think Abner and Bowen have a similar role in their respective stories?  

Of course Bowen! I kept thinking Stan Marsh lol. 

Uh? Both are fat and look like a pomegranate lol. 

Thats pretty much where it ends. Abners role is a sort of liaison between the "cattle" and the "others", while Bowen is strictly against them. Similarly Abner sympathizes and befriends the african american race where Bowen mistrusts the wildlings. 

I will say though that both are surprisingly brave and clever

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Oh cool, sounds familiar but Ive never read it. Ill look into it. Thanks ( I did thoroughly enjoy Romance of Three Kingdoms by Luo Gongzhou in the 13th century, which also draws comparisons to asoiaf)

Yeah it's a great (as of yet unfinished) series. It takes place directly after WWII ended & follows a wartime nurse named Claire. She ends up accidentally stepping through a mini stone henge & travelling back in time about 200 years. That's where the real fun begins. If you read it & have a hard time with the first couple chapters - keep reading! The first 2 or 3 chapters are kind of boring but after that it's amazing. I've never read Romance of Three Kingdoms, I'll have to check it out!

[Sigella]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There has to be bloodshed to get rid of slavery. Dany is basically George's Abraham Lincoln - and last time I looked Abe didn't get the South to abandon slavery during polite conversation drinking tea.

But unlike with Lincoln, there won't be a reconstruction after the war - no, the slavers will all be killed, along with all the people who don't give up the concept of slavery or want to continue it in changed form. This can, of course, also include slaves who are set in their ways and oppose change.

Revolutions and real societal change doesn't come cheap. Blood has to be spilled.

It would have been better if the American slaves had risen up collectively against their slavers, butchering their masters in the dozens and hundreds, and doing to their families the same thing their masters had done to them for generations - but that never happened. Had it happened America might be less racist today.

Nice, I've never thought about like that. In my eurocentric world view I draw parallels between slavers bay and ancient Greece and Rome (esp gladiator games and "democracy* unlike you barbarians"-mentality) and to the vikings (keeping thralls, having people living in their households but treated like cattle).

Quite ironically the antiquity and viking culture were not ended by bloody revolutions but was changed by feudalism and christianity: the same religion that was later totally cool with having african slaves in USA.

 

I have to disagree with your last part. If they rose and won it would either result in their new own country being cut out of Alabama (and made war on because sugar and cotton) or demand equality no one's gonna give to butchers and be made war on. If they demand ships to go back to Africa and gets there there is no place for them, the culture isn't their culture anymore and the place is heavily colonised by the same people that enslaved them in the first place. They couldn't go Gandhi since (free)people demonised them and no one gave a squat if they were mistreated. So their best option would be to do a Nymeria and find a new land which isn't all lemon cakes and would do very little towards ending racism. I can't think of a single scenario where it would.

I have said it before: I envy your sunny disposition.

 

* not even close to democracy