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Rose of Red Lake

Dany and child murder

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On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 6:35 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I don't think she'd have kiddos killed, even if it were strategic (unlike Tywin), is what I meant. They're her weakness.

The wine bearers.  She took them to assure good behavior from the slaving families but their desire to bring slavery back was too much.  They were willing to risk their children.  I suppose that is not unlike the feudal families of Westeros.  I mean, they do risk their children to fight their wars for social advancement.  I am glad Queen Daenerys decided to spare those children for the time being.  Whether that mercy will pay off later or become a liability is tough to predict.  We do know Theon would have lost his head if his family had rebelled again.  The Starks would have taken his head and say it wasn't personal.  There is a rather small and subtle difference between what is happening in Essos versus Westeros.  Westeros is already set on its feudal system.  Ned Stark didn't execute Gared to make the world a better place.  He was simply following the rules as set forth by his king.  Social improvement was not the goal for killing Sansa's wolf.  It was Ned obeying the law.  The revolution taking place in Slaver's Bay has a greater goal of which the overarching objective is to free the slaves and improve (to put it mildly) their lives for the long term.  Sparing the lives of the wine bearers creates an opportunity to build the leaders of the next generation who may be more cooperative in ending the slave trade.  

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On 9/12/2019 at 6:50 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Sparing the lives of the wine bearers creates an opportunity to build the leaders of the next generation who may be more cooperative in ending the slave trade.  

She killed their families and if any relatives are alive, she'll kill them in the future. The cupbearers were afraid to help Quentyn as he lay dying, and Dany will eventually create a lot more burn victims which will horrify them. The kids sitting in a circle spinning a dagger seems like heavy-handed foreshadowing that several will be future Theons.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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19 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She killed their families and if any relatives are alive, she'll kill them in the future. The cupbearers were afraid to help Quentyn as he lay dying, and Dany will eventually create a lot more burn victims which will horrify them. The kids sitting in a circle spinning a dagger seems like heavy-handed foreshadowing that several will be future Theons.

And she was completely correct to execute their families.  They are slavers who wish to continue slaving until they were forced to stop.  The lives of these children are rightfully hers to decide what to do with.  She is the victor in the War For Freedom.  Like it was for Robert to do with Theon as he pleased.  Robert could have taken the heads of all the Greyjoy boys for rebellion.  After all, the Starks slaughtered the Warg King and his sons.  

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On 9/4/2019 at 7:54 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Its GRRM, so im not gonna argue with you lol, but I wouldn't call it a "recommendation", as I found the characters and plot somewhat lacking, not to mention the racist undertones were abit overwhelming, however the deep sout of the 1850s was pretty terrible so it does help set the mood. The rest of his worldbuilding is frankly beautiful, an America I never knew... Maybe I am recommending it lol

I have finished.  It was alright.  

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On 9/16/2019 at 7:21 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

And she was completely correct to execute their families.  They are slavers who wish to continue slaving until they were forced to stop.  The lives of these children are rightfully hers to decide what to do with.  She is the victor in the War For Freedom.  Like it was for Robert to do with Theon as he pleased.  Robert could have taken the heads of all the Greyjoy boys for rebellion.  After all, the Starks slaughtered the Warg King and his sons.  

Dany would use overwhelming force to destroy the islands altogether and genocide an entire culture. Launching a ground war and simply executing traitors is the normal Westeros way; Dany in "fire and blood" mode would choose the most extremely violent and unnecessary path. The more power you want her to have, the more she wont be able to handle it.

I still don't understand how her own fans could say she failed at ruling. They pushed the bar so high that she had to solve all the world's problems. Like you want Dany to play world cop who rides a nuke? Go read a Superman comic. But I guess successfully ruling a city and ending slavery in her own jursidiction by making marriage alliances is "failure." The whole stupid world is her jurisdiction now, and that's ripe for a power overdose. This isnt a superhero story where Dany flies all over the world fighting evil red shirts.

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57 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany would use overwhelming force to destroy the islands altogether and genocide an entire culture. Launching a ground war and simply executing traitors is the normal Westeros way; Dany in "fire and blood" mode would choose the most extremely violent and unnecessary path. The more power you want her to have, the more she wont be able to handle it.

 

An entire culture of rapers, reavers and slavers... Nor do i think why Dany would do that, Tywin is far more cruel thsn Dany will ever be, i don't think you can find better words for the Conqueror's campaign in Dorne than senseless genocide and etc, yet those men were perfectly sane and capable oh holding their psycho impulses yet Dany can't.

 

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 I still don't understand how her own fans could say she failed at ruling. They pushed the bar so high that she had to solve all the world's problems. Like you want Dany to play world cop who rides a nuke? Go read a Superman comic. But I guess successfully ruling a city and ending slavery in her own jursidiction by making marriage alliances is "failure." The whole stupid world is her jurisdiction now, and that's ripe for a power overdose. This isnt a superhero story where Dany flies all over the world fighting evil red shirts.

Because it's quite clear that she wasn't ending slavery, she was just posponing it, she makes very bad calls, the hostage situation is the most glaring of them, Ned Stark would've not flinched in doing his duty but if you don't have the nerve, understandably, don't pick children hostages, They tried to end her life, at the end she was reintroducing slavery again, etc.

 

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11 minutes ago, frenin said:

An entire culture of rapers, reavers and slavers... 

Such a clean and surgical take on "fire and blood." Its not genocide because they're a problematic culture? How does that work? Its also not a culture solely of adult pirates; Pyke has children, wives, workers. 

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because it's quite clear that she wasn't ending slavery, she was just posponing it, 

I completely disagree. She ended slavery in Meereen, and factions were willing to accept her rule there because of the work she put in, and because they were afraid of what she would do with dragons. She may have thought she needed to actually use dragons toward the end, but I think she is wrong; progress was being made without them.

The author wrote her as being torn between not using dragons and using them. If she was supposed to use them all along, there is no reason she should be torn between a choice. Plus, the author seems to favor people who sit down and tackle the grueling side of ruling, making sacrifices, ect, which is what Dany did. Its illogical if the correct takeaway is that she failed and made zero progress by doing the same thing that other good rulers in the story have done.

Like I mentioned previously, she does the least amount of work zooming around on the back of a dragon; its also something she LOVES doing. Uh oh.

This is why I think Dany's chapters have fucked with people. It is very alluring to think that Dany needs to kill them all--I think its a trap. Dany's POV is skewed to unnecessary violence. She believes she is fire made flesh--thats Aerion territory.

48 minutes ago, frenin said:

They tried to end her life, at the end she was reintroducing slavery again, etc

The assassination was likely from anti-slavers (I believe in the Shavepate theory). She did not unintentionally reintroduce slavery. By opening the fighting puts, she was giving Meereen a new economic activity besides slavery. Her next step - if she does NOT choose the "kill them all/fire and blood" option - could be to make sure all the fighters are free. Hizdahr was willing to work with her. People in Westeros fight freely in them all the time; they're called tourneys. But Dany will probably burn the pits to the ground. Oh well, so much for being smart.

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Such a clean and surgical take on "fire and blood." Its not genocide because they're a problematic culture? How does that work? Its also not a culture solely of adult pirates; Pyke has children, wives, workers. 

It's genocide, no one has denied that, but a culture that hate the Hoares   because they were tolerant and  hated their new iron price.

In  Harrenhall lived a lof of inocents too.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I completely disagree. She ended slavery in Meereen, and factions were willing to accept her rule there because of the work she put in, and because they were afraid of what she would do with dragons. She may have thought she needed to actually use dragons toward the end, but I think she is wrong; progress was being made without them.

 

She didn't ended slavery, she postoponed it but she was following the mereenese bs at the letter and  they were playing her like they wanted, the pits were reopened, what progress  are you talking about?? Dany was giving herself in  and  they were preparing her deathbed.

 

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The author wrote her as being torn between not using dragons and using them. If she was supposed to use them all along, there is no reason she should be torn between a choice. Plus, the author seems to favor people who sit down and tackle the grueling side of ruling, making sacrifices, ect, which is what Dany did. Its illogical if the correct takeaway is that she failed and made zero progress by doing the same thing that other good rulers in the story have done.

The author is making her fighting slavery and  he is making slavers irredeemable  assholes, he is not saying you should not do it, but more like take care  with that path.

Bs, Jaeharys benefited from Maegor's campaign and  he loved so much parading his dragons that even in  Braavos knew what his deal  was, there is no single good ruler in  the story that wasn't part or was killing to be part monster if necessary,  not a single one, or do you think Jaeharys took his dragons  to Oldtown just for fin??

 

 

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

This is why I think Dany's chapters have fucked with people. It is very alluring to think that Dany needs to kill them all--I think its a trap. Dany's POV is skewed to unnecessary violence. She believes she is fire made flesh--thats Aerion territory.

All the Targs are obsesive, Jaeharys thought he was a god  among men, Egg well, there is no need to talk about Egg and  his brothers.

I think that what makes people think Dany should take Tywin's route is the fact she is fighting slavery and  Slavery can't end without blood.

 

 

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The assassination was likely from anti-slavers (I believe in the Shavepate theory). She did not unintentionally reintroduce slavery. By opening the fighting puts, she was giving Meereen a new economic activity besides slavery. Her next step - if she does NOT choose the "kill them all/fire and blood" option - could be to make sure all the fighters are free. Hizdahr was willing to work with her. People in Westeros fight freely in them all the time; they're called tourneys. But Dany will probably burn the pits to the ground. Oh well, so much for being smart.

She was in a corner  and  her hand  was forced, that's why she reintroduce slavery.

 

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Daenerys has not ended slavery, she has merely diverted it. Any freeing of slaves she has done is to ensure she has worshippers when she returns to Meereen, Volantis, maybe Pentos, and then onward to Westeros where she will arrive as a type of Aegon VII, aka, the Stranger. Even Jhiqui, who was at Dany's side when Dany took the unsullied, Jhiqui still knows Missandei to be a slave/in a slave position. Dany is the unreliable narrator in this situation.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Yes." Her hair was disheveled and her bedclothes all atangle, Dany realized. "Help me dress. I'll have a cup of wine as well. To clear my head." To drown my dream. She could hear the soft sounds of sobs. "Who is that weeping?"

"Your slave Missandei." Jhiqui had a taper in her hand.

"My servant. I have no slaves." Dany did not understand. "Why does she weep?"

Anybody who has read any of GRRM's older works will see, practically word for word and action for action, that Dany is a rework of Cyrain of Ash and Lilith, Damon Julian (as Euron and Ramsay also are derived from), Simon Kress, Grey Alys, Saagael, and a few others. They all want worship and a throne... all of them. The chains of mental/religious slavery are just as iron as those that hold the body. I mean, the Unsullied literally wear mini brazier-type helmets to signify a type of fiery mind control... JUST like the greeshka in A Song for Lya. Additionally, they all have the "red thirst" and they all make comments/actions that they take it with "fire and blood", and Simon even uses a fiery sword from the sky to take control. Ya wanna read a GRRM story where the young hippie girl that seems sooooo cool is actually a red and black arm-banded, fire and blood by any means, terror in waiting? Ananda Cain from Armageddon Rag.

George ain't new at this game, and it's one he has been perfecting since the early 70's. *chef's kiss*

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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9 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany would use overwhelming force to destroy the islands altogether and genocide an entire culture. Launching a ground war and simply executing traitors is the normal Westeros way; Dany in "fire and blood" mode would choose the most extremely violent and unnecessary path. The more power you want her to have, the more she wont be able to handle it.

I still don't understand how her own fans could say she failed at ruling. They pushed the bar so high that she had to solve all the world's problems. Like you want Dany to play world cop who rides a nuke? Go read a Superman comic. But I guess successfully ruling a city and ending slavery in her own jursidiction by making marriage alliances is "failure." The whole stupid world is her jurisdiction now, and that's ripe for a power overdose. This isnt a superhero story where Dany flies all over the world fighting evil red shirts.

You are trying to rewrite the story.  And power?  She handles power better than anybody else.  Look how Joffrey handled power.  Cersei is a disaster at having power.  Robb was a complete dickhead after getting power, the idiot broke his oaths to his own supporters and executes one of them for an offense that he let his own monther walk from.  Ofcourse he was going down.  Jon Snow had some good opportunities to make good, but he can't stop himself from meddling in the war to the south.  He executed another sworn brother for a very minor offense, let the worst criminal in the history of the Watch walk, sent that criminal to fetch his sister, and then tops it off by forming a wildling attack party to attack the warden of the north.  That's misuse of power, misuse of the office.  

Daenerys is in the same situation the United States finds itself right now.  The last of the superpowers with a lot of power over everybody else.  She has handled that power well and used restraint.  You and I do not know, because neither one of us has access to George Martin, what Daenerys will do in the future.  If we go by her record at this point in the story, yes, she can be harsh but she also shows great compassion and mercy.  She could have taken the lives of the Ghiscari wine bearers.  Their families were working against her government and they are trying to enslave people again.  She chose to execute only the slave owners who are over the age of twelve, which is very, very generous considering what those families have been doing to their slaves.  Don't forget what the Astapori do to produce their main export, they murder puppies and newborn babies to make an Unsullied.  By everything that is right, she could have ordered all of the slave owners executed and it would have been justice.  That is more appropriate justice than the innocent children got who died in Westeros while the Lannisters and the Starks were fighting.  Tywin Lannister would not have hesitated to torch the whole city and put all of the slavers to the sword.  I would not trust anybody else other than Daenerys Targaryen to have super power status.  She is the only one who can handle such power responsibly.  

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Politics.  Politics.  The leader of the opposition here is not a fan of Trump.  Jeremy Corbyn, the labour leader, is no Trump fan.  Neither is the Speaker of the House.  Though Boris J might be.  I think history will look at Trump positively.  America has an immigration problem.  Twelve million illegals.  The trade imbalance with China should have been addressed by previous administrations.  Trump will win this trade war.  I see Trump from the eyes of an outsider looking in.  

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On 22 September 2019 at 7:22 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Daenerys has not ended slavery, she has merely diverted it. Any freeing of slaves she has done is to ensure she has worshippers when she returns to Meereen, Volantis, maybe Pentos, and then onward to Westeros where she will arrive as a type of Aegon VII, aka, the Stranger. Even Jhiqui, who was at Dany's side when Dany took the unsullied, Jhiqui still knows Missandei to be a slave/in a slave position. Dany is the unreliable narrator in this situation.

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys II

"Yes." Her hair was disheveled and her bedclothes all atangle, Dany realized. "Help me dress. I'll have a cup of wine as well. To clear my head." To drown my dream. She could hear the soft sounds of sobs. "Who is that weeping?"

"Your slave Missandei." Jhiqui had a taper in her hand.

"My servant. I have no slaves." Dany did not understand. "Why does she weep?"

Anybody who has read any of GRRM's older works will see, practically word for word and action for action, that Dany is a rework of Cyrain of Ash and Lilith, Damon Julian (as Euron and Ramsay also are derived from), Simon Kress, Grey Alys, Saagael, and a few others. They all want worship and a throne... all of them. The chains of mental/religious slavery are just as iron as those that hold the body. I mean, the Unsullied literally wear mini brazier-type helmets to signify a type of fiery mind control... JUST like the greeshka in A Song for Lya. Additionally, they all have the "red thirst" and they all make comments/actions that they take it with "fire and blood", and Simon even uses a fiery sword from the sky to take control. Ya wanna read a GRRM story where the young hippie girl that seems sooooo cool is actually a red and black arm-banded, fire and blood by any means, terror in waiting? Ananda Cain from Armageddon Rag.

George ain't new at this game, and it's one he has been perfecting since the early 70's. *chef's kiss*

I don't think she's anything like Damon Julian, Simon Kress or Gray Alys. Julian is a very jaded vampire, who loves playing games with people.  Kress is a cowardly bully.  Alys punishes people by giving them what they want.

Dany might well drink the kool aid (but she's also very self-critical) but I'd say her disgust at finding out what happened at Astapor was genuine.

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10 hours ago, SeanF said:

I don't think she's anything like Damon Julian, Simon Kress or Gray Alys.

She hits the major beats of all of these archetypes Martin has developed. Not just these characters, but also Ananda Cain, Cyrain of Ash, the mother-ship combo of Nightflyers, as well as Bakkalon. None of his archetypes are exact 1:1 because of details like world setting, but they have the same crucial details that run through all of them- fire, blood, desire for worship, mental slavery/chains, child "consuming", gates, personal desire to rule/for a throne (red thirst), etc... This Daenerys we have has been around for a long while.

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Julian is a very jaded vampire, who loves playing games with people.

Damon is the exemplary case of a fire "madness" driven general Targaryen. Even when you break down the name meaning and etymology of the name Damon Julian it is connected to the various typical "Targ" aspects, including Rhaegar. The ones Damon plays games with are the human servants he reekifies. This is what I mentioned before that there is a part of Damon that is used for Euron as well as Ramsay (a fire person). They all reekify a servant until that servant cannot perform such tasks and protections anymore.

He does hold massive god-like persuasion over his clan of vampires as the ruling "bloodmaster". Blood of his blood.

Still, even Damon is not all evil. Damon is also against the types of slavery that humans have over each other. He delivers a lengthy diatribe against the hypocrisy of human "chattle" slavery when in fact he is the one who keeps the mental chains of slavery tightest around his own kind. And eventually Damon lets his mentally enslaved vampire clan go, one by one. He is a hypocrite but doesn't see it in himself, or maybe he doesn't care that he is because he thinks that is his 'right". Damon even has a sad "youth" story akin to Daenerys with Willem Darry in Braavos. The way most posters think GRRM is writing and using slavery in the story is probably only a tiny fraction of what GRRM is intending. Jon is also freeing slaves/ potential slaves but somehow these same posters skip that part?

The ship Fevre Dream is analogous to the iron throne in ASOIAF. Ozymadiuas. The ship starts off white and silver and flowery, but is then overtaken and repainted black and red when Damon takes control. And this is also when the ship (analogous for a dragon) starts to consume actual humans in the fiery belly of the beast. The lardier the person the better- watch out Illyrio!

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 Kress is a cowardly bully.  

Eh, Kress is an egomaniac, for sure! Kress wants worship and the Quaith-like Wo (who has her 'Shade") tried to guide him along the way... but Kress does what he wants and eventually his castles collapse and so he has to bring out his sword and swing it down from above, destroying (or burning as dragons do) those that do not do as directed. There again we have the same plot details like puppy eating, swords from skies, Sandkings controlled telepathically by the mother maw, castles/houses, worship, fire and blood, consume, consume, consume. The ingredients are all there.

  • Simon Kress flung his wine across the room in rage. “You dare,” he said under his breath. “Now you won’t eat for a week, you damned …” His voice was shrill. “I’ll teach you.” He had an idea. He strode out of the room, and returned a moment later with an antique iron throwing-sword in his hand. It was a meter long, and the point was still sharp. Kress smiled, climbed up, and moved the tank cover aside just enough to give him working room, opening one corner of the desert. He leaned down, and jabbed the sword at the white castle below him. He waved it back and forth, smashing towers and ramparts and walls. Sand and stone collapsed, burying the scrambling mobiles. A flick of his wrist obliterated the features of the insolent, insulting caricature the sandkings had made of his face. Then he poised the point of the sword above the dark mouth that opened down into the maw’s chamber, and thrust with all his strength. He heard a soft, squishing sound, and met resistance. All of the mobiles trembled and collapsed. Satisfied, Kress pulled back. He watched for a moment, wondering whether he’d killed the maw. The point of the throwing-sword was wet and slimy. But finally the white sandkings began to move again. Feebly, slowly, but they moved. He was preparing to slide the cover back in place and move on to a second castle when he felt something crawling on his hand.

This idea that weapons of mass destruction (as GRRM calls Dany's dragons a few times) attack from above is also shown in other areas of the story (Mel at the wall for one), and Dany spells it out here:

  • A Storm of Swords - Daenerys I

    Viserion's scales were the color of fresh cream, his horns, wing bones, and spinal crest a dark gold that flashed bright as metal in the sun. Rhaegal was made of the green of summer and the bronze of fall. They soared above the ships in wide circles, higher and higher, each trying to climb above the other.

    Dragons always preferred to attack from above, Dany had learned. Should either get between the other and the sun, he would fold his wings and dive screaming, and they would tumble from the sky locked together in a tangled scaly ball, jaws snapping and tails lashing. The first time they had done it, she feared that they meant to kill each other, but it was only sport. No sooner would they splash into the sea than they would break apart and rise again, shrieking and hissing, the salt water steaming off them as their wings clawed at the air. Drogon was aloft as well, though not in sight; he would be miles ahead, or miles behind, hunting.

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Alys punishes people by giving them what they want.

Exactly! I fully agree with this. In the Lost Lands is where Martin pulled from when writing the relationship between Dany and Drogo, which is also fire and blood related in every darn chapter, over and over. Sometimes I think readers forget that in Dany's first chapter we are introduced to Drogo who wants a very specific Targ/Valyrian blooded female, and we are introduced to the idea of R'hllor and the fire religion right away (again, GRRM invented a R'hllor years before ASOIAF so this is a callback).

  • Her brother was waiting in the cool of the entry hall, seated on the edge of the pool, his hand trailing in the water. He rose when she appeared and looked her over critically. "Stand there," he told her. "Turn around. Yes. Good. You look …"

    "Regal," Magister Illyrio said, stepping through an archway. He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold. "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings on this most fortunate day, Princess Daenerys," the magister said as he took her hand. He bowed his head, showing a thin glimpse of crooked yellow teeth through the gold of his beard. "She is a vision, Your Grace, a vision," he told her brother. "Drogo will be enraptured."

  • When he was gone, Dany went to her window and looked out wistfully on the waters of the bay. The square brick towers of Pentos were black silhouettes outlined against the setting sun. Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo's manse.
  • "That would be most fitting," Magister Illyrio said. Dany saw the smallest hint of a smile playing around his full lips, but her brother did not notice. Nodding, he pushed back a curtain and stared off into the night, and Dany knew he was fighting the Battle of the Trident once again.

    The nine-towered manse of Khal Drogo sat beside the waters of the bay, its high brick walls overgrown with pale ivy. It had been given to the khal by the magisters of Pentos, Illyrio told them. The Free Cities were always generous with the horselords. "It is not that we fear these barbarians," Illyrio would explain with a smile. "The Lord of Light would hold our city walls against a million Dothraki, or so the red priests promise … yet why take chances, when their friendship comes so cheap?"

Drogo got exactly what he (thought) he wanted. Prophecy bit his cock off.

*Clarifying just a little here. Grey Alys doesn't punish people, she simply gives them what they want, but that is the error. This story is most definitely a "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it" story, but Alys simply delivers the results. There are issues like human greed and coveting at play as well.

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Dany might well drink the kool aid (but she's also very self-critical)

Agreed, but these proto-Dany characters are the ingredients in her kool aid, and it doesn't bode well for Dany in the future. And to roughly paraphrase a Martin quote, heroes and villains aren't born that way, but rather are a culmination of their life experiences. For Martin to repeatedly put his own trademark stamps of his own characters mentioned above on Dany (and other fire people) seems to be pointing a certain way. Dany also small things like she rejects the peace song Missandei wants to song to her and ops for the war stories instead.

  • “I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that,” ---GRRm

Whatever Dany's outcome is, Martin has been building it since her first chapter and it really resonates loudest in her AGOT X chapter as she calls out to her remaining friends and allies (not her antagonists)...

  • A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

    The Dothraki exchanged uncertain glances. "Khaleesi," the handmaid Irri explained, as if to a child, "Jhaqo is a khal now, with twenty thousand riders at his back."

    She lifted her head. "And I am Daenerys Stormborn, Daenerys of House Targaryen, of the blood of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and old Valyria before them. I am the dragon's daughter, and I swear to you, these men will die screaming. Now bring me to Khal Drogo."

    He was lying on the bare red earth, staring up at the sun. [and then the Grey Alys moments continue]

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but I'd say her disgust at finding out what happened at Astapor was genuine.

I agree. I think this will be part of the mix that morphs Dany from porcelain, to ivory, to steel (as in the Steel Angels specifically in Dany's case). There is a quote where Dany says something in a rather sadly, frustrated way that everything she touches turns to ashes (? I can't remember the exact phrase... looking now).

 

Edited by The Fattest Leech
Clarified a thought

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5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

She hits the major beats of all of these archetypes Martin has developed. Not just these characters, but also Ananda Cain, Cyrain of Ash, the mother-ship combo of Nightflyers, as well as Bakkalon. None of his archetypes are exact 1:1 because of details like world setting, but they have the same crucial details that run through all of them- fire, blood, desire for worship, mental slavery/chains, child "consuming", gates, personal desire to rule/for a throne (red thirst), etc... This Daenerys we have has been around for a long while.

Damon is the exemplary case of a fire "madness" driven general Targaryen. Even when you break down the name meaning and etymology of the name Damon Julian it is connected to the various typical "Targ" aspects, including Rhaegar. The ones Damon plays games with are the human servants he reekifies. This is what I mentioned before that there is a part of Damon that is used for Euron as well as Ramsay (a fire person). They all reekify a servant until that servant cannot perform such tasks and protections anymore.

He does hold massive god-like persuasion over his clan of vampires as the ruling "bloodmaster". Blood of his blood.

Still, even Damon is not all evil. Damon is also against the types of slavery that humans have over each other. He delivers a lengthy diatribe against the hypocrisy of human "chattle" slavery when in fact he is the one who keeps the mental chains of slavery tightest around his own kind. And eventually Damon lets his mentally enslaved vampire clan go, one by one. He is a hypocrite but doesn't see it in himself, or maybe he doesn't care that he is because he thinks that is his 'right". Damon even has a sad "youth" story akin to Daenerys with Willem Darry in Braavos. The way most posters think GRRM is writing and using slavery in the story is probably only a tiny fraction of what GRRM is intending. Jon is also freeing slaves/ potential slaves but somehow these same posters skip that part?

The ship Fevre Dream is analogous to the iron throne in ASOIAF. Ozymadiuas. The ship starts off white and silver and flowery, but is then overtaken and repainted black and red when Damon takes control. And this is also when the ship (analogous for a dragon) starts to consume actual humans in the fiery belly of the beast. The lardier the person the better- watch out Illyrio!

Eh, Kress is an egomaniac, for sure! Kress wants worship and the Quaith-like Woe (who has her 'Shade") tried to guide him along the way... but Kress does what he wants and eventually his castles collapse and so he has to bring out his sword and swing it down from above, destroying (or burning as dragons do) those that do not do as directed. There again we have the same plot details like puppy eating, swords from skies, Sandkings controlled telepathically by the mother maw, castles/houses, worship, fire and blood, consume, consume, consume. The ingredients are all there.

  • Simon Kress flung his wine across the room in rage. “You dare,” he said under his breath. “Now you won’t eat for a week, you damned …” His voice was shrill. “I’ll teach you.” He had an idea. He strode out of the room, and returned a moment later with an antique iron throwing-sword in his hand. It was a meter long, and the point was still sharp. Kress smiled, climbed up, and moved the tank cover aside just enough to give him working room, opening one corner of the desert. He leaned down, and jabbed the sword at the white castle below him. He waved it back and forth, smashing towers and ramparts and walls. Sand and stone collapsed, burying the scrambling mobiles. A flick of his wrist obliterated the features of the insolent, insulting caricature the sandkings had made of his face. Then he poised the point of the sword above the dark mouth that opened down into the maw’s chamber, and thrust with all his strength. He heard a soft, squishing sound, and met resistance. All of the mobiles trembled and collapsed. Satisfied, Kress pulled back. He watched for a moment, wondering whether he’d killed the maw. The point of the throwing-sword was wet and slimy. But finally the white sandkings began to move again. Feebly, slowly, but they moved. He was preparing to slide the cover back in place and move on to a second castle when he felt something crawling on his hand.

This idea that weapons of mass destruction (as GRRM calls Dany's dragons a few times) attack from above is also shown in other areas of the story (Mel at the wall for one), and Dany spells it out here:

  • A Storm of Swords - Daenerys I

    Viserion's scales were the color of fresh cream, his horns, wing bones, and spinal crest a dark gold that flashed bright as metal in the sun. Rhaegal was made of the green of summer and the bronze of fall. They soared above the ships in wide circles, higher and higher, each trying to climb above the other.

    Dragons always preferred to attack from above, Dany had learned. Should either get between the other and the sun, he would fold his wings and dive screaming, and they would tumble from the sky locked together in a tangled scaly ball, jaws snapping and tails lashing. The first time they had done it, she feared that they meant to kill each other, but it was only sport. No sooner would they splash into the sea than they would break apart and rise again, shrieking and hissing, the salt water steaming off them as their wings clawed at the air. Drogon was aloft as well, though not in sight; he would be miles ahead, or miles behind, hunting.

Exactly! I fully agree with this. In the Lost Lands is where Martin pulled from when writing the relationship between Dany and Drogo, which is also fire and blood related in every darn chapter, over and over. Sometimes I think readers forget that in Dany's first chapter we are introduced to Drogo who wants a very specific Targ/Valyrian blooded female, and we are introduced to the idea of R'hllor and the fire religion right away (again, GRRM invented a R'hllor years before ASOIAF so this is a callback).

  • Her brother was waiting in the cool of the entry hall, seated on the edge of the pool, his hand trailing in the water. He rose when she appeared and looked her over critically. "Stand there," he told her. "Turn around. Yes. Good. You look …"

    "Regal," Magister Illyrio said, stepping through an archway. He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold. "May the Lord of Light shower you with blessings on this most fortunate day, Princess Daenerys," the magister said as he took her hand. He bowed his head, showing a thin glimpse of crooked yellow teeth through the gold of his beard. "She is a vision, Your Grace, a vision," he told her brother. "Drogo will be enraptured."

  • When he was gone, Dany went to her window and looked out wistfully on the waters of the bay. The square brick towers of Pentos were black silhouettes outlined against the setting sun. Dany could hear the singing of the red priests as they lit their night fires and the shouts of ragged children playing games beyond the walls of the estate. For a moment she wished she could be out there with them, barefoot and breathless and dressed in tatters, with no past and no future and no feast to attend at Khal Drogo's manse.
  • "That would be most fitting," Magister Illyrio said. Dany saw the smallest hint of a smile playing around his full lips, but her brother did not notice. Nodding, he pushed back a curtain and stared off into the night, and Dany knew he was fighting the Battle of the Trident once again.

    The nine-towered manse of Khal Drogo sat beside the waters of the bay, its high brick walls overgrown with pale ivy. It had been given to the khal by the magisters of Pentos, Illyrio told them. The Free Cities were always generous with the horselords. "It is not that we fear these barbarians," Illyrio would explain with a smile. "The Lord of Light would hold our city walls against a million Dothraki, or so the red priests promise … yet why take chances, when their friendship comes so cheap?"

Drogo got exactly what he (thought) he wanted. Prophecy bit his cock off.

Agreed, but these proto-Dany characters are the ingredients in her kool aid, and it doesn't bode well for Dany in the future. And to roughly paraphrase a Martin quote, heroes and villains aren't born that way, but rather are a culmination of their life experiences. For Martin to repeatedly put his own trademark stamps of his own characters mentioned above on Dany (and other fire people) seems to be pointing a certain way. Dany also small things like she rejects the peace song Missandei wants to song to her and ops for the war stories instead.

  • “I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that,” ---GRRm

Whatever Dany's outcome is, Martin has been building it since her first chapter and it really resonates loudest in her AGOT X chapter as she calls out to her remaining friends and allies (not her antagonists)...

  • A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

    The Dothraki exchanged uncertain glances. "Khaleesi," the handmaid Irri explained, as if to a child, "Jhaqo is a khal now, with twenty thousand riders at his back."

    She lifted her head. "And I am Daenerys Stormborn, Daenerys of House Targaryen, of the blood of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and old Valyria before them. I am the dragon's daughter, and I swear to you, these men will die screaming. Now bring me to Khal Drogo."

    He was lying on the bare red earth, staring up at the sun. [and then the Grey Alys moments continue]

I agree. I think this will be part of the mix that morphs Dany from porcelain, to ivory, to steel (as in the Steel Angels specifically in Dany's case). There is a quote where Dany says something in a rather sadly, frustrated way that everything she touches turns to ashes (? I can't remember the exact phrase... looking now).

 

As I said upthread, I think that Dany's story will definitely take a darker turn in TWOW, but the question is how dark?

Does she become ruthless as Stannis?  As Aegon the Conqueror?  As Tywin Lannister?  Or as Temujin or Timur?  Will we see her rolling Westward, burning cities to the ground, executing their populations, leaving pyramids of skulls in her wake, driving prisoners before her to use as human shields, authorising child murder and mass rape as  terror tactics etc?  Or, something more limited?  Conquerors come in degrees.

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

As I said upthread, I think that Dany's story will definitely take a darker turn in TWOW, but the question is how dark?

As much as GRRM says he dislikes dark villains, he has also admitted to creating many, sooo :dunno: I am sure it won't be that easy to side 100% to one side or the other. He's a tricksy bird.

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Does she become ruthless as Stannis?

As Aegon the Conqueror?  As Tywin Lannister?  Or as Temujin or Timur?  Will we see her rolling Westward, burning cities to the ground, executing their populations, leaving pyramids of skulls in her wake, driving prisoners before her to use as human shields, authorising child murder and mass rape as  terror tactics etc?  Or, something more limited?  Conquerors come in degrees.

 

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

As much as GRRM says he dislikes dark villains, he has also admitted to creating many, sooo :dunno: I am sure it won't be that easy to side 100% to one side or the other. He's a tricksy bird.

 

I think it's possible that Daenerys has become a vastly more popular character than Martin ever intended.  That's partly due to Emilia Clarke, but also due to charismatic political leaders being much more popular now than in the early nineties.  People do identify with her, very strongly.

So, if TWOW is just a litany of atrocities on her part, I think many readers would feel that Martin was trolling them.  Admittedly, others would say it shows how badass she is.

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I think very early on there are clues that she will do sinister things, and thematically she represents nuclear power which in the scifi tradition, is always a major threat to life. Its not just that Dany goes dark in one book, there is evidence the author was poking holes in her POV all along. But I guess some people disagree because they fight me tooth and nail on every little point, to defend her at every turn. So I dont think the author is trolling I just think people ignore a lot of stuff that is actually there. Blind worship Targ stanning really dumbs down everything the author is trying to do IMO.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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27 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think very early on there are clues that she will do sinister things, and thematically she represents nuclear power which in the scifi tradition, is always a major threat to life. Its not just that Dany goes dark in one book, there is evidence the author was poking holes in her POV all along. But I guess some people disagree because they fight me tooth and nail on every little point, to defend her at every turn. So I dont think the author is trolling I just think people ignore a lot of stuff that is actually there. Blind worship Targ stanning really dumbs down everything the author is trying to do IMO.

I don't like the Targs, nor I like Dany, i just confuse people give  Dany a lot of shit while  giving everyone else  a free  pass, the idea that Dany is mad but Jaeharys, Tywin, The Conqueror or Robert aren't doesn't sit well.

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31 minutes ago, frenin said:

I don't like the Targs, nor I like Dany, i just confuse people give  Dany a lot of shit while  giving everyone else  a free  pass, the idea that Dany is mad but Jaeharys, Tywin, The Conqueror or Robert aren't doesn't sit well.

I blame the author, he has made Dany's mental state a debatable issue, with Targs being wedded to madness and how Dany wonders it herself. So its a valid thing to discuss for her character, its just not productive because it cant be proven. There's plenty of other problematic passages to discuss on their own, without bringing madness...I dont like going there. Most people I have seen that criticize Dany know that conquerors are terrible people, whether male or female, and know what side they stand on in the story, even if they are grey. But when bringing up Dany's negative foreshadowing, people say "You are criticizing Dany but 'what about' all of Tywin's or Jaehaery's bad stuff too?" Its a distraction. Dany is the POV, and the goal is to  try to predict what she will do, the author is inviting us to scrutinize her.

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