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Lord Varys

Could Aegon IV have been a clandestine bigamist?

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In light of the fact that Targaryen polygamy seems to have essentially died with Maegor the Cruel (thereafter it becomes basically a joke or a concept that only lusty psychopaths like Princess Saera entertain while the princes and princes who could have profited from a bigamous union - like Prince Daemon while he was stuck with Rhea Royce or Princess Rhaenyra while she was stuck with Laenor Velaryon - do not even consider such an idea) it seems to be unlikely that this concept ever saw a renaissance after him - who is basically the only Targaryen who, as king, could force the Faith to officiate at and bless polygamous unions (and needed brute force and the threat of dragonfire to do that).

But there is the curious case of Aegon IV the Unworthy to consider. He was an exceptional promiscuous prince, sleeping with women left and right, and he apparently (or rather: supposedly) fed one of his own bastards the idea he could have more than one wife (with the second one of those supposedly being a royal princess, his own half-sister Daenerys). He also had his famous nine official mistresses, five of which 'reigned' at his side while he was king.

It certainly is a mystery as to why this king did not actually marry any of those mistresses considering that he very much could have done so, especially as king? The standard ploy to explain (away) this apparent inconsistency - and it is an inconsistency in the sense that Aegon IV has gone on record saying that he actually loved all those nine women, making it not unlikely that he could have been inclined to marry either of them at certain points in his life - is that he didn't want to marry them.

Another would be that he didn't dare marry them because he feared the backlash from his court, his son and brother, his lords, his people, and, especially, the Faith.

Because it seems rather likely that the Faith and especially the High Septon was a rather powerful player/factor during most of the reign of Aegon IV, in spite of or in contrast to the king's wanton misrule and corruption. After all, Aegon IV sort of immediately succeeded his pious cousin, the septon-king Baelor the Blessed, who started the building of the Great Sept of Baelor (which seems to have continued throughout the reign of the Unworthy and which may have only been completed during the reign of Daeron II) brought the High Septon to King's Landing where he became a powerful figure at court. Baelor did not restore the Faith Militant, but it doesn't strike as unlikely that the pious and the Faith really grew very influential during those years, not only through Baelor's patronage but also through the continuous patronage of Aegon's pious wife, Queen Naerys (not to mention that Baelor's sister Rhaena became a septa and may have joined the Most Devout).

In that kind of environment it cannot strike us as odd that King Aegon IV didn't provoke or anger the Faith and the pious lords by taking more than one wife. At least not openly. But what about the possibility that he married Barba Bracken, Melissa Blackwood, Bethany Bracken, Jeyne Lothston, or Serenei of Lys clandestinely? That could be a rather interesting prospect, especially since such clandestine marriages actually did happen rather often in real history when kings or nobles wanted to enter into morganatic marriages (a very good example would be Louis XIV of France) - although those wouldn't be bigamous unions, of course.

Barba Bracken is not a very likely candidate for this, since she actually was supposed to marry King Aegon IV after Queen Naerys had died. Melissa Blackwood was the king's mistress for five years, so she might be a better candidate for such an idea. The fact that she got along rather well with Queen Naerys and Prince Daeron is not necessarily in contradiction to this (they may not have known). Bethany Bracken and Jeyne Lothston were royal mistresses only for a rather short period of time, but apparently nevertheless women the king loved. Serenei of Lys is perhaps the most interesting case, especially since we don't know whether she was Aegon's mistress while his wife Queen Naerys was still alive or only after her death - although I'd assume before that, considering we should assume that Shiera Seastar (whose birth killed Serenei) was not born after 180 AC, or else the talk about Bittersteel and Bloodraven vying for Shiera's attention and hand would devolve into a struggle over the hand of a 13-14 year-old-girl. Considering Serenei is supposed to have been some kind of sorceress/siren, she would be a pretty good candidate for such a clandestine marriage.

The best one, though, would be one of the earlier mistresses - the peasant woman Megette, called Merry Meg, who Prince Aegon met in 155 AC, who gave him four daughters and who he allegedly did marry in a mock ceremony where a mummer played the role of the septon. It is rather easily imaginable that the mummer-septon was an actual septon, and Prince Viserys, then the Hand, later spread the tale of this having been all a sham to justify the way he treated Megette (he handed her back to her husband, a blacksmith, who beat her to death in year's course) and his granddaughters by her who he handed to the Faith. It is certainly also possible that the future Unworthy had the grace to not exactly take a commoner for a second wife, but considering his overall conduct he may not have had that particular grace.

If Aegon IV actually did marry one or more of his nine mistresses in secret then this fact could also explain how he could actually entertain the notion that his son Daemon Blackfyre could take more than one wife - the same way his royal father had done.

One could also assume that the influence of the Faith - which would have been very strong when Aegon IV took the throne - gradually waned throughout the reign of the Unworthy, so that Aegon IV may have actually thought he actually could do what he wanted more openly once he had finally rid himself of his heir, Prince Daeron, replacing him with Daemon Blackfyre - which I think he really intended to do eventually when he acknowledged the boy in 182 AC and gave him Blackfyre. His illness and death two years later would have cut such plans short. With the Dragonknight and Naerys in their graves and Daeron either dead or disgraced a King Aegon IV ruling another ten years or so, with Daemon Blackfyre as his heir, certainly could have done a lot of things the Unworthy dying in 184 AC could not.

Any thoughts on those issues? Would you like to see the concept of Targaryen bigamy or polygamy resurface in such a fashion during the reign of Aegon the Unworthy?

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What's the difference between bigamy and polygami? Sorry for asking..

Also, yeah, I think the Faith is the biggest reason why Aegon IV didn't take more than one wife at a time. Maegor I had Balerion and was ruthless. Aegon IV might have a certain ruthlessness to him, but he doesn't have a dragon, which would make it impossible (or at least, very difficult) to hold the Faith off of him.

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32 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

What's the difference between bigamy and polygami? Sorry for asking..

 

Bigamy is a crime in a monogamy society, polygamy is a legal sistem that allows multiple marriages.

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I don't understand (if indeed is the case) why the Faith was so adamant against Targaryen's polygamy whereas they turned blind eyes towards incest (a greater evil). No one ever called Rhaegar an abomination born of incest.

I wonder if this can become a world building problem if indeed Rhaegar and Lyanna married with any sort of legitimacy. Having another clandestine bigamist would help the case, but Aegon the Unworthy is hardly a good precedent.  

If you ask me the best candidate for a secret marriage would have been Daena, but this should have been made known by the Blackfyre supporters.

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I doubt that Aegon married with Melissa Blackwood. I think that he wanted to marry with her, but Cregan Stark prevented it from happening, by challenging Aegon to have a trial-by-combat. The Dragonknight was Aegon's champion, and he lost, thus Aegon had to separate with Melissa. I think that Melissa Blackwood was Cregan Stark's granddaughter, thru Cregan's daughter Mariah Stark, that's why Cregan had interfered into their relationship. In AGOT, Bran VII it was mentioned that Cregan said about Dragonknight, that he was the best swordsman he ever faced. What could be the reason why Cregan fought with Aemon? Cregan was 28 years older than Aemon. So, by the time when Aemon became a swordsman, Cregan was already in his late 40s-early 50, or even older. What they had in common? -> Nothing. Though Cregan and Aegon did had something that connected them. Even if Melissa wasn't Cregan's granddaughter, she still was his relative, thru his marriage with Alysanne Blackwood, thus, it's likely, that Cregan was opposed to Melissa's affair with the King, and forsed them to separate.

If Aegon did married with his mistresses, then the most likely candidates are Jeyne Lothston and Serenei of Lys. I think that Jeyne was Aegon's daughter, and that Serenei was actually Larra Rogare.

So, Aegon's three wives were his sister, his daughter, and his mother.

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3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I don't understand (if indeed is the case) why the Faith was so adamant against Targaryen's polygamy whereas they turned blind eyes towards incest (a greater evil). No one ever called Rhaegar an abomination born of incest.

If there were remnants of the Faith Militant tradition (which was still very much alive during the Dance and is reviving before Tommen overturns the laws, indicating it was never truly dead, but merely pushed underground) still around during the reign of Aerys II we can be pretty sure that somebody called Rhaegar (and his father and his mother and his brother) 'an abomination born of incest'.

The reason why the Faith accepted Targaryen incest was the Doctrine of Exceptionalism - and that taught that those of the blood of the dragon had the right to marry their sisters, not that they had the right to have more than one wife at the same time.

The reason why polygamy was condemned by the Faith is that the only concept of marriage the Faith seems to have accepted is monogamy, reflected by the marriage vows of the Faith. FaB also makes it clear that having two wives was as much a problem for the Faith as Aegon's incest, and that Jaehaerys I concluded the real problem/cause of the Faith Militant Uprising was Maegor's second wife, not the marriage of Aegon and Rhaena.

The fact that a dozen septons rather died than marry Maegor to Tyanna strongly suggests that polygamy was abhorred more by the Faith than incest. This is also supported by the fact that neither Murmison nor Oswyck objected when King Aenys and King Jaehaerys I called upon them to officiate at an incestuous marriage.

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I wonder if this can become a world building problem if indeed Rhaegar and Lyanna married with any sort of legitimacy. Having another clandestine bigamist would help the case, but Aegon the Unworthy is hardly a good precedent.

He would at least be something. I wanted there to be more Targaryen polygamists after Maegor the Cruel, but George chose to not give us any. The way he presented things now makes it exceedingly unlikely that he can or will paint the Rhaegar-Lyanna marriage as a successful or legitimate marriage (assuming it is something that will be known by the court and public). But I've long said that my guess is that George will reveal that Rhaegar either married Lyanna openly or his father learned what he did, anyway, and then used that as pretext to condemn him as a traitor (the marriage being *confirmation* that the Starks were making common cause agains the king with Rhaegar) and a bigamist (sort of echoing the uproar of Maegor's second marriage - the weak King Aenys forced Maegor into exile, Aerys II was not known to be weak insofar as lashing out against real and imagined enemies was concerned).

And we do also have a hint that Aerys II himself had good ties with the High Septon and the Faith since he himself humbled himself before the Seven after his mad rage after Jaehaerys' death, making a solemn vow (and keeping it) to share only the bed of his lawful sister-wife thereafter. This pious conduct would have been much more pleasing to the Faith than a prince making out with or marrying a follower of the old gods. That's not going to make him popular, and if the Faith and the Iron Throne spoke with one voice on that matter (which they may have before the Rebellion started in earnest) then Rhaegar's position would have been very bad indeed.

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

If you ask me the best candidate for a secret marriage would have been Daena, but this should have been made known by the Blackfyre supporters.

Since Aegon never loved her (and she likely never loved Aegon or served as his mistress/wife after he became king) and the whole thing would defeat the whole Blackfyre thing and the later legitimation decree I doubt that's the case.

The best cases would be Merry Meg (best hint so far), Melissa Blackwood, and Serenei of Lys.

Falena Stokeworth was married to Lucas Lothston (which would have been difficult if she had already been married to Aegon), Cassella Vaith seems to be insignificant for something like that (and never mentions that she was Aegon's wife, merely his true love) Bellegere Otherys seems to have been far too independent for shit like that, Barba Bracken should marry Aegon (implying she did not), Bethany Bracken wouldn't have been keen and was his mistress only for a short period, and something similar goes for Jeyne Lothston.

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"Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free".

He didn't even bother remarrying after Naerys died.

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

"Why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free".

He didn't even bother remarrying after Naerys died.

We don't know how, well, physically rotten the man was when Naerys died, right? She died after the Dragonknight and he definitely died after the Bethany Bracken affair in 178 AC, but we don't know when the Toynes tried to avenge their brother - could have been shortly thereafter or 1-2 years later. And as I pointed out above I think we have to go with the preliminary assumption that Shiera was born around 180/181 AC since it isn't really feasible (or rather: another of those silly child romances George creates because he cannot keep his numbers straight) if Shiera were born shortly before the Unworthy's own death in 184 AC because that would make her a girl of twelve during the Blackfyre Rebellion - and we are supposed to believe that both Bittersteel and Bloodraven had the hots for her before the war even began.

In that sense I think it is not unlikely that Naerys lived until or even after Serenei died in childbirth, explaining why she was never made Aegon's queen (or he never revealed publicly that he had married her in secret). That he had no other queen after Naerys nor another mistress after Serenei (who likely wasn't the companion of his last years) can easily be explained with him being too fat/sick to be able to convince anyone but prostitutes or serving wenches to pleasure him.

But feel free to imply or hint at preliminary dates (Shiera's birth; Serenei's, Naerys' or Aemon's death) you may have access to and shut down such ideas ;-).

I'd still say that the best candidate for my idea would still be Merry Meg. And here they may have decided to hush things up not just because it involved clandestine polygamy but also a morganatic marriage which Aegon III (while he was still alive) and later Daeron I and, especially, Baelor the Blessed could have taken as pretext or justification to exclude Prince Aegon from the line of succession - something Prince Viserys may have not been willing to accept in the 150s (although I think there is a good chance that he may have planned to pass over Aegon and name Daeron his heir when he became king, and this was then the reason why Aegon had him murdered - if that's what happened).

Overall, the possibility of Aegon IV entertaining the idea or daring to take a second wife would really help to explain where the weirdo idea of Daemon Blackfyre taking two wives would come from.

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On 8/23/2019 at 5:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

Because it seems rather likely that the Faith and especially the High Septon was a rather powerful player/factor during most of the reign of Aegon IV, in spite of or in contrast to the king's wanton misrule and corruption.

When Baelor died the High Septon was a boy, so unless if he was assassinated and quickly replaced by a Most Devout, he would be the High Septon during Aegon IV's reign. I doubt he had lot of influence on Aegon.

On 8/23/2019 at 5:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

Baelor did not restore the Faith Militant, but it doesn't strike as unlikely that the pious and the Faith really grew very influential during those years, not only through Baelor's patronage but also through the continuous patronage of Aegon's pious wife, Queen Naerys (not to mention that Baelor's sister Rhaena became a septa and may have joined the Most Devout).

I like your idea of Rhaena as a Most Devout.

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14 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

When Baelor died the High Septon was a boy, so unless if he was assassinated and quickly replaced by a Most Devout, he would be the High Septon during Aegon IV's reign. I doubt he had lot of influence on Aegon.

That is correct, but we can reasonably expect that this boy did not long outlive Baelor I. King Viserys II may have seen to that, just as he took care of the stone mason High Septon.

The overall point would be that the collective increase of power and prestige the Faith must have gotten throughout the reign of Baelor I cannot have suddenly disappeared after Baelor died. Even less so in light of the beatification or canonization of Baelor after his death. He is essentially a saint and treated as such. Even if Viserys II and Aegon IV were diametrically opposed to all his policies (which they likely weren't, at least not completely) they would have still been unable to change the policies of the Iron Throne completely. At least not at once.

And the fact that the Great Sept was finished and not abandoned during the reigns of Viserys II and Aegon IV can be seen as an indication of that. One assumes the Crown paid a rather decent share of the costs, especially since it seems to have King Baelor's idea.

14 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I like your idea of Rhaena as a Most Devout.

I'd have also liked it if Septa Rhaella had shown up as a Most Devout at the first Great Council in 101 AC. But Rhaena is still out there. She could make a proper career for herself in the Faith. And one actually assumes that Blessed Baelor's sister would rise very high in the ranks.

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Posted (edited)

Aegon could have secretly married with Serenei after Naerys' death. Maybe, GRRM based it on how Louis XIV of France married with Françoise d'Aubigné, Marquise de Maintenon. In this case Barba Bracken seems to be based on Madame de Montespan, who mistreated Louis' wife, Queen Marie-Thérèse, while she was the King's mistress. Louis' wedding with Françoise was held on 9 October 1683 or in January 1684. Similarly Aegon's wedding with Serenei could have happened either in late 183, or in early 184, maybe, even when she was already on her deathbed. If it was her last wish, to be married with him, then he could have granted it. That's why Shiera was never a Waters (bastard surname for those, that were born in Crownlands), and why nothing is known about Aegon's marriage with Serenei, because she died after the wedding ceremony, and thus, didn't became the Queen.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

if Shiera were born shortly before the Unworthy's own death in 184 AC because that would make her a girl of twelve during the Blackfyre Rebellion - and we are supposed to believe that both Bittersteel and Bloodraven had the hots for her before the war even began.

Daemon Blackfyre (born in 170) got married with Rohanne of Tyrosh when he was 14 years old (in 184), his beloved Daenerys (born in 172, married with Maron Martell in 187) at that time was 12 years old. It's unlikely that Daemon continued pursuing Daenerys, even after he got married with Rohanne, which means, that, most likely, Daemon and Daenerys fell in love prior his marriage, and at that time she was even less than 12 years old.

If Shiera Seastar was the most beautiful woman in the world (GRRM said something like that), then it's not impossible, that Bloodraven and Bittersteel were fighting over her, even though prior First Blackfyre Rebellion she was no older than 12 years old. If she was barely twelve in 196, then it explains why there's no information about Shiera's involvement in that Rebellion, or about her support given to either of two sides of her family, Blackfyres or Targaryens, - at that time she was too young to be interested in political affairs.

P.S. There are similarities between Aegon IV and Louis XIV. Seems that Louis' eighth mistress, Marie Angélique de Scorailles, who arrived to his court in 1678, is a basis for Jeyne Lothston, that became Aegon's eighth mistress in 178. Marie died after childbirth. Possibly Jeyne also died after giving birth to Aegon's secret son, the Bastard of Harrenhal.

Edited by Megorova

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Aegon could have secretly married with Serenei after Naerys' death. Maybe, GRRM based it on how Louis XIV of France married with Françoise d'Aubigné, Marquise de Maintenon. In this case Barba Bracken seems to be based on Madame de Montespan, who mistreated Louis' wife, Queen Marie-Thérèse, while she was the King's mistress. Louis' wedding with Françoise was held on 9 October 1683 or in January 1684. Similarly Aegon's wedding with Serenei could have happened either in late 183, or in early 184, maybe, even when she was already on her deathbed. If it was her last wish, to be married with him, then he could have granted it. That's why Shiera was never a Waters (bastard surname for those, that were born in Crownlands), and why nothing is known about Aegon's marriage with Serenei, because she died after the wedding ceremony, and thus, didn't became the Queen.

Serenei of Lys was a Lysene noblewoman. If Aegon married her, there was no need for her to do this clandestinely after Queen Naerys was dead. She was highborn enough to be a proper queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Daemon Blackfyre (born in 170) got married with Rohanne of Tyrosh when he was 14 years old (in 184), his beloved Daenerys (born in 172, married with Maron Martell in 187) at that time was 12 years old. It's unlikely that Daemon continued pursuing Daenerys, even after he got married with Rohanne, which means, that, most likely, Daemon and Daenerys fell in love prior his marriage, and at that time she was even less than 12 years old.

This is wrong since we know Daemon Blackfyre was pissed that Daeron II married his sister Daenerys to Maron Martell years after he had taken the throne and years after Daemon himself had married Rohanne of Tyrosh.

It is also claimed that Daemon thought he could have two wives at the same time, something he would not have needed to believe if his desire to marry Daenerys had stopped after he had married Rohanne in 184 AC.

What's problematic - and I say internally inconsistent - is the idea that Aegon IV actually fed his bastard son (still not legitimized) the idea that he could marry his legitimate half-sister after he had already married a different bride of Aegon's choosing. That is just not very believable if we talk about a 12-14-year-old bastard, and a 10-12-year-old princess.

There is also no chance that these two were 'in love' at that age - if something happened between them then it happened later when they were old enough to properly fall in love (and while we can claim that for a 13-14-year-old Daemon, I don't think it works for 11-12-year-old Daenerys).

In that sense one could save the 'Daemon the would-be bigamist' scenario if one assumed that Daemon followed his father's example in coveting a second wife. But then - it is not even clear that there was such a desire. Could all be rumors and nonsense. Or it might be that Daemon played with the idea to end his marriage with Rohanne and sent her back to Tyrosh.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

If Shiera Seastar was the most beautiful woman in the world (GRRM said something like that), then it's not impossible, that Bloodraven and Bittersteel were fighting over her, even though prior First Blackfyre Rebellion she was no older than 12 years old. If she was barely twelve in 196, then it explains why there's no information about Shiera's involvement in that Rebellion, or about her support given to either of two sides of her family, Blackfyres or Targaryens, - at that time she was too young to be interested in political affairs.

She would still not be a woman at that age, and definitely not the most beautiful woman. She would have been a beautiful girl at that age. And Bloodraven (b. 175 AC) and especially Bittersteel (b. 172 AC) would have been signficantly older than her, meaning - unless they were pedos - they would have been interested in actual women.

If Shiera was born in 180 AC she would have been fifteen in 195 AC, a year before the Blackfyre Rebellion began. That's an age where we can imagine her as a youthful and fully developed femme fatale who would enjoy herself turning the heads of her half-brothers. But if she is younger than that this doesn't really fly.

There also has to be some time where Shiera develops and comes into her own. Bittersteel and Bloodraven vying for her hand is something that is interpreted as one of the causes for the Blackfyre Rebellion. It wouldn't do if that was just a rivalry stretching over 'a fortnight' or at best a couple of months when 'the woman' in question was still half a child.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Serenei of Lys was a Lysene noblewoman. If Aegon married her, there was no need for her to do this clandestinely after Queen Naerys was dead. She was highborn enough to be a proper queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

If she died soon after their wedding, then what was the point of revealing to general public, that Aegon got remarried? Some people, who never contemplated, that after Naerys' death Aegon can remarry, could have tried to force him to marry again, after Serenei' death. Either somehow forced him, or prepared a trap for him, like in case with Bethany Bracken. Aegon was seriously ill, his sister-wife was dead, same as his brother-Kingsguard, and his son Daeron didn't cared about him, so who was there to defend Aegon against advances of bad people? -> No one.

Some powerful House could have manipulated Aegon into making one of them the King's Hand, then locked him somewhere, isolating him from the rest of court, claiming that it is the King's order, and would have ruled in his place. They could have also forced/manipulated him into getting married with a woman, selected by them. Soon after that she could have became pregnant, and not necessary from Aegon. Aegon hated Daeron, so they could have tricked him into disowning Daeron, and all of Daeron's children. For example, they could have made him to believe, that by disowning Daeron, he will make Daemon to be his heir. They could have prepared and made him to sign two separate documents. One with decree that Daemon is not Aegon's son, that, for example, he was child of Dragonknight, and that supposedly Aemon or Naerys, before they died, admitted it, and that Aegon won't allow someone else's kid to sit on his throne. And the second document with decree about Daemon's legitimization. Though, when they were announcing the King's will, they would have revealed to people only the content of that first document, and kept quiet about Daemon's legitimization. They could have either burned that second document, or, when they gave that document to Aegon to sign, instead of Daemon's name, they could have wrote there someone else's name, and didn't let Aegon to read what he is signing. In 184 he was seriously ill, bedridden, so, probably, his eyesight was deteriorating, and thus, someone else was reading to him all those documents, that he was supposed to sign. <- This sort of scenario was a likely possibility, in case if Aegon's remarriage was an option.

I think, that it's possible, that Ambrose Butterwell was Aegon's son, and that's the reason, why Aegon gave a dragon's egg to Lord Butterwell - actually it was for Aegon's son (the other two women either gave birth to daughters, or their children were stillborn, or miscarried, which frequently happened with Targaryen babies). If my guess is correct, then Ambrose was Aegon's second oldest son, next after Daeron. So, if Aegon disowned Daeron, and legitimized his bastards, then Ambrose would have became the King of 7K.

Ambrose's grandfather was Aegon's Hand of the King, and Ambrose was the Master of coin. They could have tricked Aegon into getting married with Ambrose' mother. In 184 she was in her late 30s, so she still could have given birth to Aegon's child. Rohanne Webber-Lannister gave birth to her last son from Gerold Lannister, when she was 44 years old; Queen Rhaella gave birth to Dany, when she was 38 or 39 years old; Queen Alysanne gave birth to Gael, when she was 44; ex-Queen Alyssa Velaryon gave birth to her last child, when she was 47 years old; if I'm right and Serenei of Lys was Larra Rogare, then she gave birth to Shiera, when she was 69 years old. If illegitimate children, that were legitimized, are placed in line of inheritance after all legitimate children, then, even if Aegon legitimized Ambrose, and disowned Daeron, there was still Daenerys (Daeron's younger sister). But if Ambrose's mother got married with Aegon, and then gave birth to a son, then that son, in case of Daeron's disinheritance, would have became the King of 7K after Aegon's death.

Instead of Butterwells and Ambrose's mother, there could have been some other House, and some other woman, whom thru marriage with Aegon could have totally changed political situation at 7K. There was Daena the Defiant, Elaena Targaryen-Plumm, Bellegere Otherys, who gave birth to three of Aegon's children, and was related to the Sealord of Braavos, etc., etc., etc.   

So, revealing to people, that remarriage for King Aegon is an option, potentially could have caused all sort of ploys, conspired at court. Thus, if he did remarried after Naerys' death, with Serenei, and then his new wife died, then there was a lot of reasons for Aegon not to let this become known to others. No? :huh:

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What's problematic - and I say internally inconsistent - is the idea that Aegon IV actually fed his bastard son (still not legitimized) the idea that he could marry his legitimate half-sister after he had already married a different bride of Aegon's choosing. That is just not very believable if we talk about a 12-14-year-old bastard, and a 10-12-year-old princess.

Why not? Daemon's mother was a royal princess, an ex-wife of King Baelor, also she was cousin of King Aegon IV, niece of King Viserys II, and the eldest daughter of King Aegon III. If women were acceptable as rulers in 7K, then Daena would have became the ruler of 7K, not Aegon. Also, as the King, Aegon could have legitimized any of his bastards, whenever he wanted. So, probably, he did promised to Daemon, that eventually he will be legitimized, and thus, this won't be an obstancle for his marriage with Daenerys. I don't think, that those promises were lies, I think that Aegon believed in what he was saying. It seems that, when Aegon died, newly-crowned King Daeron hastily married Daemon to Rohanne of Tyrosh. He tricked Daemon, lied to him, that later he will let him marry with Daenerys, and that his marriage with Rohanne won't be an obstacle for that marriage. If there indeed was some sort of document, that stated, that Daeron wasn't Aegon's son, or if there were people, that were saying, that Daeron was Aemon's kid, then Daenerys was King Aegon's only legitimate child, and thus, she was first in line of inheritance, and after her all of Aegon's legitimized bastards. Supposedly there was no evidences that Ambrose Butterwell was Aegon's son, or he wasn't Aegon's son; and there was no evidence, that Bellegere's three children were not someone else's, that their fathers were some other men, and not Aegon; in this case, if Daeron was disinherited, then next in line was legitimate Daenerys and legitimized Daemon. So, their marriage was very unfavorable for Daeron. What if Daeron himself knew or suspected, that he wasn't Aegon's son? Thus, to prevent in the future any attempts from Daemon+Daenerys to overthrow him, he separated them, by tricking Daemon into getting married, while making him believe, that later he can take a second wife, and then maried Daenerys off to Dorne.

What prevented Daemon and Daenerys from getting married was Daeron's plotting. If not that, then they could have been together.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She would still not be a woman at that age, and definitely not the most beautiful woman. She would have been a beautiful girl at that age. And Bloodraven (b. 175 AC) and especially Bittersteel (b. 172 AC) would have been signficantly older than her, meaning - unless they were pedos - they would have been interested in actual women.

Criston Cole and Rhaenyra Targaryen. In 104, when he granted the victor's laurel to Rhaenyra, and asked for her favor in the lists, she was 7, and he was 22 <- 15 years age gap.

Jorah is trice older than Dany.

When Rohanne Webber was 13 years old, she got married with a guy who was 54 years old (and it was her second marriage, her first husband was 12 years old, and she was 10), he died several months after their wedding, and six months after his death, she gave birth to their son, who later also died. 41 years of age difference.

Tyrion was going to have sex with his 12-years old wife. Marillion wanted to rape 13-years old Sansa. Petyr Baelish was kissing her. Are they all pedos?

GRRM said - "in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding."

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Flowering

In 196, when Bloodraven was 21, Bittersteel was 24, and Shiera was 12, there was only 9-12 years age gap between them. If at that age she already had her first menstruation, then she was a maiden, not a child. What Sansa said - "And I am no child, but a maiden flowered." - Alayne Stone, to Lady Waynwood.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That's an age where we can imagine her as a youthful and fully developed femme fatale who would enjoy herself turning the heads of her half-brothers. But if she is younger than that this doesn't really fly.

There also has to be some time where Shiera develops and comes into her own. Bittersteel and Bloodraven vying for her hand is something that is interpreted as one of the causes for the Blackfyre Rebellion. It wouldn't do if that was just a rivalry stretching over 'a fortnight' or at best a couple of months when 'the woman' in question was still half a child. 

She was a witch, same as her mother. So, maybe, she used love potion on both of them, she was experimenting, and that's why they both lost their heads and reason, and fought for a 12-years old girl.

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35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If she died soon after their wedding, then what was the point of revealing to general public, that Aegon got remarried?

If Naerys predeceased Serenei, then Serenei was likely already pregnant. It would have been advantageous for King Aegon IV to have Serenei as his wife and queen when her child - which could have been a son - was born. After all, that would have made things much more easier for him to push Daeron aside. There wouldn't have been any need for the legitimation decree nonsense on his deathbed.

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Why not? Daemon's mother was a royal princess, an ex-wife of King Baelor, also she was cousin of King Aegon IV, niece of King Viserys II, and the eldest daughter of King Aegon III. If women were acceptable as rulers in 7K, then Daena would have became the ruler of 7K, not Aegon. Also, as the King, Aegon could have legitimized any of his bastards, whenever he wanted. So, probably, he did promised to Daemon, that eventually he will be legitimized, and thus, this won't be an obstancle for his marriage with Daenerys. I don't think, that those promises were lies, I think that Aegon believed in what he was saying. It seems that, when Aegon died, newly-crowned King Daeron hastily married Daemon to Rohanne of Tyrosh. He tricked Daemon, lied to him, that later he will let him marry with Daenerys, and that his marriage with Rohanne won't be an obstacle for that marriage. If there indeed was some sort of document, that stated, that Daeron wasn't Aegon's son, or if there were people, that were saying, that Daeron was Aemon's kid, then Daenerys was King Aegon's only legitimate child, and thus, she was first in line of inheritance, and after her all of Aegon's legitimized bastards. Supposedly there was no evidences that Ambrose Butterwell was Aegon's son, or he wasn't Aegon's son; and there was no evidence, that Bellegere's three children were not someone else's, that their fathers were some other men, and not Aegon; in this case, if Daeron was disinherited, then next in line was legitimate Daenerys and legitimized Daemon. So, their marriage was very unfavorable for Daeron. What if Daeron himself knew or suspected, that he wasn't Aegon's son? Thus, to prevent in the future any attempts from Daemon+Daenerys to overthrow him, he separated them, by tricking Daemon into getting married, while making him believe, that later he can take a second wife, and then maried Daenerys off to Dorne.

There is no evidence that Daeron II indulged Daemon in nonsense about a second wife. That was supposedly Aegon IV.

And bastards simply are not princes - no matter what Aegon may have promised Daemon, when he arranged his marriage to Rohanne of Tyrosh Daemon was still a bastard, not a prince. Aegon IV only legitimized his bastards on his deathbed, not before, and he wouldn't have been on his deathbed when he negotiated with the Archon of Tyrosh for the hand of his bastard son.

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

What prevented Daemon and Daenerys from getting married was Daeron's plotting. If not that, then they could have been together.

In a silly polygamous union. Right.

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Criston Cole and Rhaenyra Targaryen. In 104, when he granted the victor's laurel to Rhaenyra, and asked for her favor in the lists, she was 7, and he was 22 <- 15 years age gap.

Who cares? That's not 'love'. That's a girl liking the idea of having a famous knight as a sworn shield. It is nonsense to interpret this as a sign of meaningful affection.

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Are they all pedos?

More or less yes, if they actually sexually attracted to children, since most 12-year-olds do not look like adult or even adolescent women.

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

GRRM said - "in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding."

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Flowering

Marriage, yes, romantic love, no. Child marriage is child abuse.

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

In 196, when Bloodraven was 21, Bittersteel was 24, and Shiera was 12, there was only 9-12 years age gap between them. If at that age she already had her first menstruation, then she was a maiden, not a child. What Sansa said - "And I am no child, but a maiden flowered." - Alayne Stone, to Lady Waynwood.

Maidens are not women in this world. Maidenhood is basically adolescence. It starts with menstruation and ends when the girl marries and/or comes of age (at sixteen).

But it is still clear that child marriages involving a maiden of 11-12 are very unusual. They are not the rule.

And it is equally clear that children from 10-13 or so don't have great romances and love affairs. They are far too young for that. Sansa wasn't really in love with either Joffrey or Loras Tyrell. She never even knew them all that well. And if Daenerys and Shiera were of a similar age then the talk about them being 'in love' is just not worth anything.

Just as Cersei's 'feelings' for Rhaegar are a joke considering that she is only ten years old when her marriage to Rhaegar (a guy she would have seen only once or twice before that) was supposed to be announced.

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

She was a witch, same as her mother. So, maybe, she used love potion on both of them, she was experimenting, and that's why they both lost their heads and reason, and fought for a 12-years old girl.

Yeah, right. Or she was simply not a 12-year-old girl in 195-96 AC.

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On 8/30/2019 at 6:53 PM, Lord Varys said:

Or she was simply not a 12-year-old girl in 195-96 AC.

Could be that at that time she was older than 12, though the earliest possible year of her birth is 180.

Aegon's seventh mistress, Bethany Bracken, was brough to court in 177. She was executed in 178. Later in 178 Aegon's eighth mistress, Jeyne Lothston, was brought to court. Seems that she was evicted from there in 179. Because it's unlikely, that Aegon managed to execute Bethany, begin his relatioship with Jeyne, infect her with small pox, and sent her away, all that in span of 178. Thus, most likely, Serenei was brough to court in not very early 179, so, even if she got pregnant in that same year, she gave birth to Shiera not earlier than in 180. I think that Bloodraven is Leo, and Shiera is a Cancer (based on husband-Sun and wife-Moon of Dothraki legends, Lion of the Night and Maiden-made-of-light symbolism in the story), so she was born in June-July, 6-7 months of 180 (or 184, it's possible that Serenei died later than Aegon, and the reason why Aegon on his deathbed had legitimized all of his bastards, is because of Serenei's pregnancy. That could be the reason, why Shiera was never a Waters).

Thus, her maximum age at the time of Rebellion in 196 was 15-16, and minimum was 11-12 (if she was born in 184).

If she was no older than 12, at the time prior Rebellion, it still doesn't mean, that she wasn't plotting something in relation to dragonseed-men from her circle. Egg's younger sister, Rhae, gave to him love potion, prior 209, because she wanted him to marry with her, and not with their older sister Daella. At that time Rhae was less than 9 years old. If a girl, who is younger than 9, and who had three brothers, and three male-cousins, deemed that it was necessary to use love potion, to assure her future marriage, then it's possible, that Shiera, who had significally lesser choices, also did something like that, and her actions caused some great confrontation between Bloodraven and Bittersteel. Just look at everything that Arya did, and she's only 10 years old.

Shiera is the main driving force behind many important events in ASOIAF. She's Quaithe, and the Three-Eyed Crow. She instructed Dany how to hatch dragon eggs, she was Mirri Maz Duur's teacher, and maester Marwyn's teacher, seems that Euron Greyjoy (the Crow's Eye, Urrathon Nightwalker from Qarth) was also one of her apprentices, and it seems that she's the one who orchestrated fAegon's birth (could be that she was that septa, that Barristan Selmy saved from Kingswood Brotherhood together with Jeyne Swann/septa Lemore), she stored shadow-glamour into that moonstone brooch that Maynard Plumm/Bloodraven used in "The Mystery Knight". She was exceptional, even when she was just a little girl. So, it's not impossible, that a 12-years old girl caused two adult men to fight because of her. Especially if she did used magic on them. Just because you don't see that happening, doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

If Aegon did married with one of his mistresses, then Serenei is the most likely candidate. Didn't he said, that out of all of them, he loved her the most? (That's because, probably, she was his mother. She left her family, when Aegon was 4 years old. Because of his mother abandoning him, he had a complex, and when he grew up, he became a horndog.)

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