Information from the app should be taken with a grain of salt

[Peach King]

I think there should be a disclaimer required that the app is not fully canon.

I could bring up numerous examples on how the app is found to be wrong on several occasions, or how GRRM changed his mind and went ahead with something else even though it conflicted with what is written in the app. Giving a cursory glance over something does not decide it as canon, a tabletop game which was "semi-canon" had wrong information which was corrected with which information was found in the books.

Therefore I think there should be a disclaimer required on every wiki page if AWOIAF is cited as a source. If ages are calculated and there are two possibilities, but one possibility is struck out because it conflicts with information from the app, I still think the two possibilities should be given, as the AWOIAF app is not truly canon.

However if the only information we get about ages is from the app, then that information should  be given.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

55 minutes ago, Peach King said:

I think there should be a disclaimer required that the app is not fully canon.

I could bring up numerous examples on how the app is found to be wrong on several occasions, or how GRRM changed his mind and went ahead with something else even though it conflicted with what is written in the app. Giving a cursory glance over something does not decide it as canon, a tabletop game which was "semi-canon" had wrong information which was corrected with which information was found in the books.

Therefore I think there should be a disclaimer required on every wiki page if AWOIAF is cited as a source. If ages are calculated and there are two possibilities, but one possibility is struck out because it conflicts with information from the app, I still think the two possibilities should be given, as the AWOIAF app is not truly canon.

However if the only information we get about ages is from the app, then that information should  be given.

The app is considered semi-canon, according to the referencing and canon-guide.

As such, we are allowed to use it as a source on the wiki, as long as it does not contradict with information from canon sources.

 

Regarding the calculation you I assume you are referring to (Renly Baratheon), the calculation does now state that the info from the app is semi-canon.

Secondly, even if it did not, an entire paragraph explaining that "a large subset of fans do not consider" the app a worthy source, is not only superfluous in its content, but also, the referencing guide takes the app as an accepted source, so even if there are fans that do not consider the app a good source, the wiki editors/administrators have decided that, as a semi-canon source, it is allowed to be used.

 

And lastly, being "near twenty" does not mean that someone is twenty years old. He is close to twenty, but that leaves several possibilities. Is he nineteen? Eighteen? Twenty-one? Twenty-two? Twenty? All possible. But what it does not mean is that he certainly was twenty in 298 AC.

 

So, the books tell us there are two possibilities. That's canon information. Semi-canon information gives us a further clue, by which the possibilities can be brought down to one.

 

Of course, should the info in the app be changed, the calculation will be changed accordingly. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

I agree with @Rhaenys_Targaryen

[Peach King]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The app is considered semi-canon, according to the referencing and canon-guide.

As such, we are allowed to use it as a source on the wiki, as long as it does not contradict with information from canon sources.

 

Regarding the calculation you I assume you are referring to (Renly Baratheon), the calculation does now state that the info from the app is semi-canon.

Secondly, even if it did not, an entire paragraph explaining that "a large subset of fans do not consider" the app a worthy source, is not only superfluous in its content, but also, the referencing guide takes the app as an accepted source, so even if there are fans that do not consider the app a good source, the wiki editors/administrators have decided that, as a semi-canon source, it is allowed to be used.

 

And lastly, being "near twenty" does not mean that someone is twenty years old. He is close to twenty, but that leaves several possibilities. Is he nineteen? Eighteen? Twenty-one? Twenty-two? Twenty? All possible. But what it does not mean is that he certainly was twenty in 298 AC.

 

So, the books tell us there are two possibilities. That's canon information. Semi-canon information gives us a further clue, by which the possibilities can be brought down to one.

 

Of course, should the info in the app be changed, the calculation will be changed accordingly. 

I just think that two possibilities can be given. A full year passes from when Sansa first met Renly to the parley between Renly and Stannis. Renly was 21 in the parley, so it's not possible that he was also 21 when Sansa first met him. 

"The key point in determining canon is that it must be from George R. R. Martin. Any content that cannot be determined as having originated with or been expressly regarded as canon by Martin cannot in itself be considered canon."

I would like a statement that Renly was indeed 6 during the Rebellion.

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

I would like a statement that Renly was indeed 6 during the Rebellion.

The app states he was. Now the default is to assume the app is right, so it is up to you to provide evidence that the app is wrong on that, not the other way around. Anyone interested in the matter can have a look on the calculation and decide if he or she follows the reasoning or not, so I think it is apparent enough the way it is.

[Peach King]

7 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The app states he was. Now the default is to assume the app is right, so it is up to you to provide evidence that the app is wrong on that, not the other way around. Anyone interested in the matter can have a look on the calculation and decide if he or she follows the reasoning or not, so I think it is apparent enough the way it is.

The evidence is that Renly cannot be 21 in AGOT as a full year and a month passes and he is still 21 in ACOK

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

The evidence is that Renly cannot be 21 in AGOT as a full year and a month passes and he is still 21 in ACOK

Thanks, that is something we can check now.

[The Wondering Wolf]

11 minutes ago, Peach King said:

The evidence is that Renly cannot be 21 in AGOT as a full year and a month passes and he is still 21 in ACOK

I am not sure I get your reasoning. Renly is 21 when he dies in the middle of 299 AC. So he either turned 21 in the first half of the year (before the Cressen chapter) or he would have become 22 in the second half. When Sansa meets him in the middle of 298 AC, Renly looks "near twenty", whatever that means. So I see no reason why he could not have turned 21, say, in the eighth, ninth or tenth month of 298 AC.

[Peach King]

27 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I am not sure I get your reasoning. Renly is 21 when he dies in the middle of 299 AC. So he either turned 21 in the first half of the year (before the Cressen chapter) or he would have become 22 in the second half. When Sansa meets him in the middle of 298 AC, Renly looks "near twenty", whatever that means. So I see no reason why he could not have turned 21, say, in the eighth, ninth or tenth month of 298 AC.

Renly was plotting to have Margaery replaced in AGOT, after Ned came to the capital. Stannis calls him out on this at the parley, saying "a year ago you were plotting to make the girl Robert's whore." Renly was 21 at the time of the parley. That means he was 20 when Sansa first met him, which was the same time Ned came to the capital, and a full year passes since then. I would like to change Renly's age to "twenty when we first meet him" instead of early twenties as I believe that's more accurate.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

5 hours ago, Peach King said:

I just think that two possibilities can be given. A full year passes from when Sansa first met Renly to the parley between Renly and Stannis. Renly was 21 in the parley, so it's not possible that he was also 21 when Sansa first met him. 

 

3 hours ago, Peach King said:

Renly was plotting to have Margaery replaced in AGOT, after Ned came to the capital. Stannis calls him out on this at the parley, saying "a year ago you were plotting to make the girl Robert's whore." Renly was 21 at the time of the parley. That means he was 20 when Sansa first met him, which was the same time Ned came to the capital, and a full year passes since then.

Renly was plotting to have Margaery replace Cersei in AGOT. But that did not take place in a single day. So what is Stannis reffering to? The day Renly began enacting his plot? That started before Sansa ever met him. The day that he had to stop his plot? That was Robert's accident months and months later. Or any random day in between? 

Of course, Renly was twenty years old exactly a year before he was twenty-one. But to say that Stannis is referring to the exact day where Sansa met him and judged him to be "near twenty" is an impossible thing.

So no, there is no proof that exactly a year passed between Sansa meeting Renly, and Renly's parley with Stannis.

 

In any case, naturally, at some point in 298 AC Renly was twenty. He was twenty-one for part of 299 AC, so naturally he was twenty for part of 298 AC. We just cannot use Sansa's "near twenty" to say that "on the day that Sansa met Renly, he was twenty", which is what you seem to try and do.

Either way, Renly being 21 in 299 AC given him two options for his year of birth. Renly being twenty in 298 AC given exactly the same options, so I'm not sure what the point is here?

 

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I would like to change Renly's age to "twenty when we first meet him" instead of early twenties as I believe that's more accurate.

I've removed the mention of his age all together for now. That he was twenty when Sansa met him is not a given, and "when we first meet him" is, in any case, not the encyclopedic style we try to use in our texts.

But out of curiosity, what was wrong with "early twenties"? No matter whether he was twenty or twenty-one when Sansa met him, both ages would count as "early twenties".

 

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I would like a statement that Renly was indeed 6 during the Rebellion.

The Renly Baratheon entry in the app starts like this:

Renly is the third son of Lord Steffon Baratheon and Lady Casanna of House Estermont, and the youngest of the Baratheon brothers. He is a boy of six at the time of Robert's Rebellion, and is present at Storm's End throughout its long siege - a siege that is finally ended by Lord Eddard's arrival from the recently conquered King's Landing.