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Baelish's plan to the Throne

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Given what has happened in the first five books, how could you realistically (realistic in a Westerosi Universe sense) see Baelish becoming King? Or does he simply want authority (and would be a willing Regent/Hand of a Harry/Robin & Sansa baby)?

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20 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

Given what has happened in the first five books, how could you realistically (realistic in a Westerosi Universe sense) see Baelish becoming King? Or does he simply want authority (and would be a willing Regent/Hand of a Harry/Robin & Sansa baby)?

At this point he might plan to simply buy himself the crown with food - because if he continued to control the food of the Vale he certainly could make himself very popular with every single starving Westerosi in winter.

Aside from that, he doesn't seem to have a plan for the Iron Throne with Harry and Sansa - but once he learns about Aegon he could try to marry Sansa to Aegon, wait until she has born an heir, and then kill Aegon to rule as regent alongside in the name of her child. Once he has married the dowager queen (like Rogar Baratheon did during the minority of Jaehaerys I) he could make plans to claim the Iron Throne for himself.

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By orchestrating Sansa’s path to Queenship through marriage, secretly fathering a child on her and passing it off as the King’s child. Then offing the King and being the hidden power behind his son’s Throne.

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Sansa doesn't have a pathway to the throne.  Sansa and Harry could become lord and lady of the vale.  He could influence them to back him for the throne.  Maybe he thinks Braavos might side with him.  That would not be enough ordinarily but the recent war tooks its toll on everyone.  

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I think that in the past Littlefinger was one of Varys' agents, so he knew about fAegon years ago. Also I think that LF is a dragonseed, and Aegon IV's descendant, thru Aegon's daughter-mistress, Jeyne Lothston, and Jeyne's son, the Bastard of Harrenhal (who was defeated in a melee by Ser Arlan of Pennytree). I think that that Bastard was either first Lord Whent of Harrenhal, or he was the father of first Lord Whent (he was grandfather of Lady Shella Whent, and great great-grandfather of Littlefinger. So, LF and Catelyn Tully are something like third cousins).

After Daeron II Targaryen, Aegon's next son is Balerion Otherys, then Daemon Blackfyre, then Bittersteel (who possibly died childless), then Bloodraven (who supposedly had no children, and went missing beyond The Wall), then next is son of Jeyne Lothston (if the real reason of her exile from Targaryen court was her pregnancy from her father, King Aegon). Could be that Jeyne's son, who was Aegon's secret child, after his father's death, went to Braavos, to visit there his Otherys-siblings, who, same as the Bastard of Harrenhal, were never acknowledged by Aegon as his children. Possibly while he (the Bastard) was in Braavos, he had a child/son with Balerion's daughter. This son is Littlefinger's great-grandfather, the sellsword from Braavos. All of Daeron's male descendants, such as King Aerys, Rhaegar and his son, and Viserys, are dead, and no one knows about Jon. Thus, officially male line of House Targaryen has ended. If Balerion Otherys had only daughters, then male line from this House has also ended. It is known, that male line of Blackfyres is also dead. Bittersteel and Bloodraven had no children. Viserys Plumm and Ambrose Butterwell were never acknowledged by Aegon as his children. Though, in case with Bellegere Otherys and Jeyne Lothston, they both were Aegon's official mistresses. Thus, if in the span of their relationship with Aegon, they gave birth to sons (Balerion was born between 163 and 172, and the Bastard of Harrenhal possibly was born in 178, or 179, or 180), then those sons are next in line for Iron Throne, after male-Targaryens.

If Littlefinger is descendant of Aegon IV, thru Jeyne Lothston's son, the Bastard of Harrenhal, and thru Balerion's daughter, then he has a higher claim over Iron Throne than Daenerys.

I think, that Varys is a Blackfyre from male line. But because he can't have children, to have a claim over Iron Throne, he went to Westeros, to look for other people with Targaryen blood, who can have a claim over their throne. And that's when he found Petyr Baelish, revealed to him his dragonseed ancestry, and offered to him to conspire together, to get Iron Throne for him. So, LF became Varys' agent, and he thought, that thru their partnership, he will become the King of 7K. Though later Varys had found a better option (could be that Barristan Selmy is grandson of Aenys Blackfyre, and fAegon is Barristan's son from septa Lemore/Jeyne Swann), and cast Petyr aside, as a candidate. That's when Petyr decided to betray Varys, and use everything he had learned from him, to get to Iron Throne on his own.

So, Littlefinger knows Varys' plan, how to get Iron Throne for fAegon, because originally Varys made that plan, to make Petyr the King of 7K. Thus LF is going to offer Sansa to fAegon. She's the heiress of The North, also, as Robb's sister, she can have a claim over Riverlands (because Riverlanders proclaimed Robb not only the King in The North, but also the King of the Trident, and Tullys acknowledged him as their overlord). Probably, if fAegon will agree to marry with Sansa, and to make her his Queen, then LF will promise to additionally give him support of The Vale. Thus, Sansa is the key to three Kingdoms, and thru marriage with her fAegon will get significally more power than thru marriage with Arianne Martell or Margaery Tyrell.

And after Queen Sansa will get pregnant (from LF, not from fAegon), Petyr will use her, same way as he used Lysa. He will make Sansa to poison her husband. Then he will either marry with her, and will become her King-consort, or he will kill her too, same as he killed Lysa, and then he will become the Regent of Sansa's child. It's likely, that Robert Arryn is actually Littlefinger's son, not Jon Arryn's. So LF is planning to use with Sansa and fAegon the same scheme, that he has already used with Lysa and Jon Arryn. If it had worked once, then why not to use it again?

And he thinks, that he has a right to sit on Iron Throne, because he is Aegon IV's descendant, and has a higher claim than Daenerys Targaryen.

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On 8/28/2019 at 5:56 PM, Lord Varys said:

At this point he might plan to simply buy himself the crown with food - because if he continued to control the food of the Vale he certainly could make himself very popular with every single starving Westerosi in winter.

Aside from that, he doesn't seem to have a plan for the Iron Throne with Harry and Sansa - but once he learns about Aegon he could try to marry Sansa to Aegon, wait until she has born an heir, and then kill Aegon to rule as regent alongside in the name of her child. Once he has married the dowager queen (like Rogar Baratheon did during the minority of Jaehaerys I) he could make plans to claim the Iron Throne for himself.

This would be very interesting.

 

20 hours ago, Unit A2 said:

Sansa doesn't have a pathway to the throne.  Sansa and Harry could become lord and lady of the vale.  He could influence them to back him for the throne.  Maybe he thinks Braavos might side with him.  That would not be enough ordinarily but the recent war tooks its toll on everyone.  

There is a Northern throne. Plus the country has been at civil war. A leader or leaders of great region(s) certainly are in a position to make a play.

 

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that in the past Littlefinger was one of Varys' agents, so he knew about fAegon years ago. Also I think that LF is a dragonseed, and Aegon IV's descendant, thru Aegon's daughter-mistress, Jeyne Lothston, and Jeyne's son, the Bastard of Harrenhal (who was defeated in a melee by Ser Arlan of Pennytree). I think that that Bastard was either first Lord Whent of Harrenhal, or he was the father of first Lord Whent (he was grandfather of Lady Shella Whent, and great great-grandfather of Littlefinger. So, LF and Catelyn Tully are something like third cousins).

After Daeron II Targaryen, Aegon's next son is Balerion Otherys, then Daemon Blackfyre, then Bittersteel (who possibly died childless), then Bloodraven (who supposedly had no children, and went missing beyond The Wall), then next is son of Jeyne Lothston (if the real reason of her exile from Targaryen court was her pregnancy from her father, King Aegon). Could be that Jeyne's son, who was Aegon's secret child, after his father's death, went to Braavos, to visit there his Otherys-siblings, who, same as the Bastard of Harrenhal, were never acknowledged by Aegon as his children. Possibly while he (the Bastard) was in Braavos, he had a child/son with Balerion's daughter. This son is Littlefinger's great-grandfather, the sellsword from Braavos. All of Daeron's male descendants, such as King Aerys, Rhaegar and his son, and Viserys, are dead, and no one knows about Jon. Thus, officially male line of House Targaryen has ended. If Balerion Otherys had only daughters, then male line from this House has also ended. It is known, that male line of Blackfyres is also dead. Bittersteel and Bloodraven had no children. Viserys Plumm and Ambrose Butterwell were never acknowledged by Aegon as his children. Though, in case with Bellegere Otherys and Jeyne Lothston, they both were Aegon's official mistresses. Thus, if in the span of their relationship with Aegon, they gave birth to sons (Balerion was born between 163 and 172, and the Bastard of Harrenhal possibly was born in 178, or 179, or 180), then those sons are next in line for Iron Throne, after male-Targaryens.

If Littlefinger is descendant of Aegon IV, thru Jeyne Lothston's son, the Bastard of Harrenhal, and thru Balerion's daughter, then he has a higher claim over Iron Throne than Daenerys.

I think, that Varys is a Blackfyre from male line. But because he can't have children, to have a claim over Iron Throne, he went to Westeros, to look for other people with Targaryen blood, who can have a claim over their throne. And that's when he found Petyr Baelish, revealed to him his dragonseed ancestry, and offered to him to conspire together, to get Iron Throne for him. So, LF became Varys' agent, and he thought, that thru their partnership, he will become the King of 7K. Though later Varys had found a better option (could be that Barristan Selmy is grandson of Aenys Blackfyre, and fAegon is Barristan's son from septa Lemore/Jeyne Swann), and cast Petyr aside, as a candidate. That's when Petyr decided to betray Varys, and use everything he had learned from him, to get to Iron Throne on his own.

So, Littlefinger knows Varys' plan, how to get Iron Throne for fAegon, because originally Varys made that plan, to make Petyr the King of 7K. Thus LF is going to offer Sansa to fAegon. She's the heiress of The North, also, as Robb's sister, she can have a claim over Riverlands (because Riverlanders proclaimed Robb not only the King in The North, but also the King of the Trident, and Tullys acknowledged him as their overlord). Probably, if fAegon will agree to marry with Sansa, and to make her his Queen, then LF will promise to additionally give him support of The Vale. Thus, Sansa is the key to three Kingdoms, and thru marriage with her fAegon will get significally more power than thru marriage with Arianne Martell or Margaery Tyrell.

And after Queen Sansa will get pregnant (from LF, not from fAegon), Petyr will use her, same way as he used Lysa. He will make Sansa to poison her husband. Then he will either marry with her, and will become her King-consort, or he will kill her too, same as he killed Lysa, and then he will become the Regent of Sansa's child. It's likely, that Robert Arryn is actually Littlefinger's son, not Jon Arryn's. So LF is planning to use with Sansa and fAegon the same scheme, that he has already used with Lysa and Jon Arryn. If it had worked once, then why not to use it again?

And he thinks, that he has a right to sit on Iron Throne, because he is Aegon IV's descendant, and has a higher claim than Daenerys Targaryen.

If you write this fanfic I will definitely read it.

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On 8/28/2019 at 4:52 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

By orchestrating Sansa’s path to Queenship through marriage, secretly fathering a child on her and passing it off as the King’s child. Then offing the King and being the hidden power behind his son’s Throne.

Maybe after the plan to marry her directly fell though. He even offered a proposal through Cersei. Creepy.

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6 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Maybe after the plan to marry her directly fell though. He even offered a proposal through Cersei. Creepy.

Not more creepy than Rhaegar fucking Lyanna, Drogo fucking Dany, Viserys I marrying Aemma Arryn, Margaery Tyrell marrying Tommen, etc.

Not to mention Walder Frey's young wives or Eldon Estermont's most recent young and nubile Dornish wife.

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23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not more creepy than Rhaegar fucking Lyanna, Drogo fucking Dany, Viserys I marrying Aemma Arryn, Margaery Tyrell marrying Tommen, etc.

Not to mention Walder Frey's young wives or Eldon Estermont's most recent young and nubile Dornish wife.

Yeah, all of that is gross as well but this is NEXT LEVEL. He orchestrates her choices behind the scenes, with the goal of predation, stalks her, arranges her life so she has to be indebted to him, frames her for murder, takes her identity away, makes her his fake daughter, hides his complicity in her real father’s murder, whores her out to other men, and on top of that, wants to fuck her. Great fodder for “To Catch a Predator.”

 

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19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah, all of that is gross as well but this is NEXT LEVEL. He orchestrates her choices behind the scenes, with the goal of predation, stalks her, arranges her life so she has to be indebted to him, frames her for murder, takes her identity away, makes her his fake daughter, hides his complicity in her real father’s murder, whores her out to other men, and on top of that, wants to fuck her. Great fodder for “To Catch a Predator.”

 

Not sure how this is much different from any other old guy preying on a your girl he eventually marries.

Littlefinger offering to marry Sansa back in AGoT was at a time when he has done pretty much no harm to her, personally. And he definitely did not ruin and destroy Ned so he could marry Sansa - he had other motives for that. If Ned hadn't been so damned stupid and stubborn Ned could have arranged the Sansa-Petyr match.

But there is nothing unusual that the daughter of a guy marries the man who destroyed her. Do you think Jaehaera Targaryen wanted to marry Aegon III? Or Argella Durrandon Orys Baratheon? I don't think so.

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32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure how this is much different from any other old guy preying on a your girl he eventually marries.

Littlefinger offering to marry Sansa back in AGoT was at a time when he has done pretty much no harm to her, personally. And he definitely did not ruin and destroy Ned so he could marry Sansa - he had other motives for that. If Ned hadn't been so damned stupid and stubborn Ned could have arranged the Sansa-Petyr match.

But there is nothing unusual that the daughter of a guy marries the man who destroyed her. Do you think Jaehaera Targaryen wanted to marry Aegon III? Or Argella Durrandon Orys Baratheon? I don't think so.

Oh my god, can you not tell that the problem with it is that he LIES to her about it and treats her like his daughter? it’s one step below Craster. Foul. Orys and Angela were nothing like that. These wild comparisons are a reach. And why?

Every time I bring up how Sansa’s been manipulated and controlled by captors or opportunists, I get rebuffed with statements that attempt to minimize or normalize her specific experiences, by playing “whataboutism” or whitewashing the people who are using her. Some people seem to be dead set on defending men’s right to use her. No wonder Sansa fans asked to have their accounts deleted and fled this place for other discussion forums. They wanted to avoid the inevitable creep factor whenever Sansa/LF, Sansa’s/Tyrion, or Sansa’s/Sandor comes up. The fandom discussions about Sansa are sometimes even creepier than what’s actually happening to her in the books.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 8/28/2019 at 5:29 PM, nyser1 said:

Given what has happened in the first five books, how could you realistically (realistic in a Westerosi Universe sense) see Baelish becoming King? Or does he simply want authority (and would be a willing Regent/Hand of a Harry/Robin & Sansa baby)?

I don't think he wants to be king. He's too smart for that. Running a kingdom is dull, tedious work, and then usually end up getting killed.

He wants to be the power behind the throne, moving all the pieces, including the king, acquiring all the wealth, wielding all the power. Like Tywin, only better.

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Baelish is playing the best tools he has.  He is acting like Illyrio Mopatis.  He wants to get ahead but they are limited by what they have.  Can you imagine the delight Illyrio got after he heard about the dragons coming back to life.  He must have had an orgasm.  

Baelish only has Sansa.  That is the only play available to him.  High chances or low this is what he has.  

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Oh my god, can you not tell that the problem with it is that he LIES to her about it and treats her like his daughter? it’s one step below Craster. Foul. Orys and Angela were nothing like that. These wild comparisons are a reach. And why?

By comparison, this was not that big of a deal.

What's much worse by comparison is you being dragged naked - and by your own men at that - in front of the murderer of your father and eventually be forced to marry that man and bear his children. That's just sick by every standard. And it doesn't get better if the man in question is nice to the woman - giving her clothes and talking to her gently. That makes him simply a nice abuser/rapist.

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Every time I bring up how Sansa’s been manipulated and controlled by captors or opportunists, I get rebuffed with statements that attempt to minimize or normalize her specific experiences, by playing “whataboutism” or whitewashing the people who are using her. Some people seem to be dead set on defending men’s right to use her. No wonder Sansa fans asked to have their accounts deleted and fled this place for other discussion forums. They wanted to avoid the inevitable creep factor whenever Sansa/LF, Sansa’s/Tyrion, or Sansa’s/Sandor comes up. The fandom discussions about Sansa are sometimes even creepier than what’s actually happening to her in the books.

The issue here is that you claimed Littlefinger asking for Sansa's hand in AGoT was 'creepy'. I agree with that insofar as relationships in the real world are concerned, but this is not the case for the framework within the society the characters live in - and the author doesn't describe it as being as creepy as the scenarios were young girls or women are actually forced to marry much older men, among them even some such who have personally killed (or directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of) close family members.

I mean, you are aware that women are trained to think of themselves as brood mares their fathers and brothers use to make political alliances, right? Women don't have the right to choose their own husbands - they marry who their fathers and brothers choose for them. This is essentially institionalized sexual abuse. Some people make their peace with it and actually make a relationship work neither of them would have started if they had had a choice (like Cat and Ned) while others are stuck in loveless (Stannis-Selyse) or outright abusive marriages (Cersei-Robert, Lysa-Jon).

If we imagined for a moment that Sansa and Littlefinger married then she would have, most likely, be in a much better position than her dear aunt (who never loved Jon Arryn, nor enjoyed having sex with him), Cersei, Argella Durrandon, Sylva Santagar, various women who were forced to marry Maegor, etc. We can, for instance, be very sure that Sansa would have been much happier as Lady Baelish than she actually was as Tyrion's wife.

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34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Some people make their peace with it and actually make a relationship work neither of them would have started if they had had a choice (like Cat and Ned) while others are stuck in loveless (Stannis-Selyse) or outright abusive marriages (Cersei-Robert, Lysa-Jon).

If we imagined for a moment that Sansa and Littlefinger married then she would have, most likely, be in a much better position than her dear aunt (who never loved Jon Arryn, nor enjoyed having sex with him), Cersei, Argella Durrandon, Sylva Santagar, various women who were forced to marry Maegor, etc. We can, for instance, be very sure that Sansa would have been much happier as Lady Baelish than she actually was as Tyrion's wife.

Was Jon Arryn abusive towards Lysa?  Or do you mean how she murdered him?  I don't recall reading anything about him being bad to her previously.

Yes, I can't see Littlefinger misstreating Sansa.  As far as I've read he only abuses people when there's something to gain, there's been no sign of wanton cruelty.  His  fewsmallfolk seem to like him surpisingly well, despite him mocking the fingers the whole time he's there.  And he has some loyal followers, besides the ones who he's simply enriched.  She'd have been safer with him than with Tyrion certainly, as Littlefinger would have had good excuses to get her away from Joffrey and King's Landing.   Lysa might have tried to murder her though I guess.

Your post very well highlights the situation in Westeros.  i think a lot of people get stuck trying to view it with modern eyes, which probably comes down to how well GRRM can draw the reader into the setting.  Its a rough place to live in which tends to reward the brutal and the strong and abuse the weak and kind.

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It would be impossible for Baelish to become king as people would never accept him as the legitimate monarch and I believe he knows this. He simply want a puppet on the throne and himself as hand of the king and regent with his cronies on the small council and his gold as a way to buy swords and people. And controlling the food to feed people and become popular maybe? Not sure on the food part but doesn’t he also have lords who are in debt to him, that could also be a way to control them and with him as lord of Harrenhal, which is a powerful and respected lordship ,albeit, feared due to rumours of it being cursed, he can legitimately become powerful on the council without people claiming that he was simply some minor lord from the fingers that had risen above himself. He required war to rise up through the chaos. I doubt he planned all that happened throughout the WOTFK however as he strikes me as an opportunist who simply created chaos, then attempted to see which king he should back to benefit himself the most and go from there.

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2 hours ago, argonak said:

Yes, I can't see Littlefinger misstreating Sansa.  As far as I've read he only abuses people when there's something to gain, there's been no sign of wanton cruelty. 

Read between the lines. He got rejected by a woman and sought revenge, some 15 years later by helping destroy Sansa's family, all because he couldn't get laid. Classic incel behavior, perhaps even "wanton cruelty." He and Tyrion have a lot in common. 

2 hours ago, argonak said:

She'd have been safer with him than with Tyrion certainly, as Littlefinger would have had good excuses to get her away from Joffrey and King's Landing.   

Every Sansa discussion: who would have abused her less. Yawn.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What's much worse by comparison is you being dragged naked - and by your own men at that - in front of the murderer of your father and eventually be forced to marry that man and bear his children. That's just sick by every standard. And it doesn't get better if the man in question is nice to the woman - giving her clothes and talking to her gently. That makes him simply a nice abuser/rapist.

Yeah Sansa already went through that. It was called Joffrey. Baelish is nice to Sansa and talks to her gently. That simply makes him a nicer abuser, who would have raped her if he got the chance to marry her, but is currently pressuring her into kissing him (Its even the last line of her arc in AFFC, meaning its significant). He needs to stop touching her, period, or it will escalate.

"I am Alayne father, who else would I be?" is a horrifying line that illustrates psychological brainwashing. Its a storyline that is unique to her and but I'm sure folks will either say "eh suck it up" or come up with some unnecessary comparison to basically render Sansa's story unremarkable and average. Just shrug at the whole thing, and show no empathy whatsoever, because other women "have it worse" (wtf). So that when she triumphs over these things, it will also be unremarkable and average. And people can continue to discount her story overall, because they erased her struggle. Better off marrying Baelish? How about better off not marrying at all which is what she wants right now. She is not safe with Baelish. Readers should be able to recognize the dangers of the situation she is in with LF, who shows all the signs of predation. 

And with that, I need to go bleach my eyes reading these posts.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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1 hour ago, •Brandon Ice Eyes said:

It would be impossible for Baelish to become king as people would never accept him as the legitimate monarch and I believe he knows this. He simply want a puppet on the throne and himself as hand of the king and regent with his cronies on the small council and his gold as a way to buy swords and people. And controlling the food to feed people and become popular maybe? Not sure on the food part but doesn’t he also have lords who are in debt to him, that could also be a way to control them and with him as lord of Harrenhal, which is a powerful and respected lordship ,albeit, feared due to rumours of it being cursed, he can legitimately become powerful on the council without people claiming that he was simply some minor lord from the fingers that had risen above himself. He required war to rise up through the chaos. I doubt he planned all that happened throughout the WOTFK however as he strikes me as an opportunist who simply created chaos, then attempted to see which king he should back to benefit himself the most and go from there.

Littlefinger does have a lot of Lords, lesser lords, and merchants who owe him favors or money.  Not the best way to maintain loyalty, but it can work.  Also he's not just Lord of Harrenhal, he's also Overlord of the Riverlands (technically).    But both of those are poisoned gifts which will require huge amounts of effort to succeed with and pay little in immediate return, and keep him reliant on the Throne's support and generosity.  He wisely stuck with his plan of gaining control of the Vale instead.

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3 minutes ago, argonak said:

Littlefinger does have a lot of Lords, lesser lords, and merchants who owe him favors or money.  Not the best way to maintain loyalty, but it can work.  Also he's not just Lord of Harrenhal, he's also Overlord of the Riverlands (technically).    But both of those are poisoned gifts which will require huge amounts of effort to succeed with and pay little in immediate return, and keep him reliant on the Throne's support and generosity.  He wisely stuck with his plan of gaining control of the Vale instead.

Yes and he has already reconciled with half the Lords Declarant, and made friends with Lyonel Corbray and Nestor Royce.

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2 hours ago, argonak said:

Was Jon Arryn abusive towards Lysa?  Or do you mean how she murdered him?  I don't recall reading anything about him being bad to her previously.

I mean that she clearly did not want to marry the fellow and did clearly not like to have sex with him. She phrases that as being disgusted by his bad breath - but the thing that counts for me is the fact that it's clear she didn't like the man and would have never allowed him to fuck her had she had a choice (or been trained to see it as her duty to allow him to impregnate her so she can fulfill her societal function).

This is why I think Selyse is better off since she actually seems to worship this Stannis fellow and actually desires to have sex with him. In their case Stannis seems to be the greater victim of the arranged marriage.

2 hours ago, argonak said:

Yes, I can't see Littlefinger misstreating Sansa.  As far as I've read he only abuses people when there's something to gain, there's been no sign of wanton cruelty.  His  fewsmallfolk seem to like him surpisingly well, despite him mocking the fingers the whole time he's there.  And he has some loyal followers, besides the ones who he's simply enriched.  She'd have been safer with him than with Tyrion certainly, as Littlefinger would have had good excuses to get her away from Joffrey and King's Landing.   Lysa might have tried to murder her though I guess.

I was talking about the point where they were married. Considering Littlefinger actually loves Sansa chances are pretty low that he would actually harm her or make her life unpleasant. If she betrayed her marriage vows, etc. he might deal with her harshly, but he wouldn't be different there than any other Westerosi husband (hello there, Merry Meg, Naerys, Margaery).

2 hours ago, argonak said:

Your post very well highlights the situation in Westeros.  i think a lot of people get stuck trying to view it with modern eyes, which probably comes down to how well GRRM can draw the reader into the setting.  Its a rough place to live in which tends to reward the brutal and the strong and abuse the weak and kind.

Any setting where the kind of arranged marriages exist that we see in Westeros is deeply misogynistic, especially if it allows for men having sex outside of marriage (i.e. having the chance at romance and love and sex outside of a shitty, loveless marriage) while women are stuck with the husband and the husband only. And that's Westerosi culture.

19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Read between the lines. He got rejected by a woman and sought revenge, some 15 years later by helping destroy Sansa's family, all because he couldn't get laid. Classic incel behavior, perhaps even "wanton cruelty." He and Tyrion have a lot in common.

Littlefinger is more complex than that. And he doesn't want revenge against Catelyn at all insofar as I understand it. He wanted her back, and when it was clear he couldn't get her he wanted Sansa.

There is also pretty much no reason to believe Littlefinger was ever an incel. He is a very nice and charming man who can seduce pretty much any woman he wants. He is very popular with everyone, and obviously quite capable of satisfying Lysa despite the fact that he must be disgusted by her.

19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Every Sansa discussion: who would have abused her less. Yawn.

You can complain to the author about that. George made Sansa a pawn in the game, a character who is essentially completely defined by what she means to other people and whose only means to gain power for herself would be through other men.

And that goes for essentially all women, even Asha and Brienne, because dragons or not - in the end these women can only exercise power through men, be they their consorts, officials, or soldiers.

The very framework of the society makes that clear.

19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah Sansa already went through that. It was called Joffrey. Baelish is nice to Sansa and talks to her gently. That simply makes him a nicer abuser, who would have raped her if he got the chance to marry her, but is currently pressuring her into kissing him (Its even the last line of her arc in AFFC, meaning its significant). He needs to stop touching her, period, or it will escalate.

Sansa's own people never chained her naked and handed her over to her enemies. And Joffrey never married or raped her as far as I know.

19 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

"I am Alayne father, who else would I be?" is a horrifying line that illustrates psychological brainwashing. Its a storyline that is unique to her and but I'm sure folks will either say "eh suck it up" or some up with some unnecessary comparison to basically render Sansa's story unremarkable and average. Just shrug at the whole thing, and show no empathy whatsoever, because other woman "have it worse" (wtf). So that when she triumphs over these things, it will also be unremarkable and average. And people can continue to discount her story overall, because they erased her struggle. Better off marrying Baelish? How about better off not marrying at all which is what she wants right now. She is not safe with Baelish. Readers should be able to recognize the dangers of the situation she is in with LF, who shows all the signs of predation.

Nobody says she is safe with Littlefinger. We just said she would not be that bad off as his wife than she actually was with Tyrion. And I think she could be much worse than she is with Littlefinger. Most other would-be husbands or protectors would not care to teach her the game of thrones. Littlefinger is. And that counts in his favor, no matter whether you like it or not.

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