The Wheel of Time TV Show 3: Fan expectations are heavier than a mountain, success is lighter than a feather [BOOK SPOILERS]

[Werthead]

They could, but I suspect they won't remount as part of the same filming bloc, not if the outbreak doesn't subside for 8-12 months as appears to be the case. Much more likely that Season 2 will be expanded to 10 episodes to compensate.

My article for Dragonmount about the delay.

[SpaceChampion]

Rafe Judkins' instagram answered a bunch of fan questions.  See https://www.instagram.com/rafejudkins/ and go to stories.

The important bits - Of course major characters like Min, Elayne and Avi are not going to be cut or combined.  Forsaken are major characters, therefore none are likely cut.  Minor characters might have their stories grafted onto a major.

The VFX for the weaves look awesome.

Some casting announcements soon.

He's locked in self-isolation but working on editing episodes and writing season 2.

Unlikely to see a trailer for a long while.

There is an Aiel in the first season.

The prologue is in at some point in the first season, doesn't sound like the beginning or first episode.

Loial is an Ogier, not a tall man.

They're cutting way less than most people think.  Mat and Rand passing through 20 villages on the way to Camlyn is just not producible.

[SpaceChampion]

 

[Poobah]

50 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

 

 

This was a good canon based argument but I don't really buy the sorta... whole premise that you can somehow convince people who are clearly being racist to not be racist by offering them facts and logic.

[Werthead]

I did some deep diving on the map side of things as well and noted that the Two Rivers is located at 32°N. This puts the location on the same parallel as: the Texas/New Mexico border; Savannah, Georgia; just south of Bermuda; Morocco; Algeria; Tunisia; Libya; southern Israel; Jordan; northern Saudi Arabia; southern Iraq; Iran; Afghanistan; Pakistan; India; China; southern Japan; and Baja California and Sonora, Mexico.

This tracks with 1) the map in the world book and 2) the approximate latitude of Charleston, South Carolina (at 32°47'N), RJ's hometown and the primary inspiration for the Two Rivers.

Even given the geophysical changes to Earth by the time of the WoT (such as the larger icecaps, indicating a cooler planet), you're not going to be looking like a lily-white English person (living twenty degrees further north) living on that latitude.

[Corvinus85]

7 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I did some deep diving on the map side of things as well and noted that the Two Rivers is located at 32°N. This puts the location on the same parallel as: the Texas/New Mexico border; Savannah, Georgia; just south of Bermuda; Morocco; Algeria; Tunisia; Libya; southern Israel; Jordan; northern Saudi Arabia; southern Iraq; Iran; Afghanistan; Pakistan; India; China; southern Japan; and Baja California and Sonora, Mexico.

This tracks with 1) the map in the world book and 2) the approximate latitude of Charleston, South Carolina (at 32°47'N), RJ's hometown and the primary inspiration for the Two Rivers.

Even given the geophysical changes to Earth by the time of the WoT (such as the larger icecaps, indicating a cooler planet), you're not going to be looking like a lily-white English person (living twenty degrees further north) living on that latitude.

But on the other hand, the Two Rivers is a strongly forested area, with only small farms and villages in between. So unlike living in Texas/New Mexico, people wouldn't get quite as much sun exposure, and the planet being cooler, probably means that skin color isn't influenced much by the environment. We do see this being the case with the Aiel, though, while they still retain their genetic markers.

I haven't had to the chance to watch much of the video, yet, I have no doubt it will present compelling arguments. Ultimately, the peoples of this world are largely varied, with exceptions to the "rule" found in all nations. I would say the real defining groups existed in the Age of Legends, and then people dispersed as they could, though in some cases certain groups managed to stay cohesive like the Aiel and the Sea Folk. Migration waves continued to occur during the Trolloc Wars, the Hundred Year War, and other major wars. 

[Gronzag]

9 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

 

Is the guy trying to convince himself and others that Jordan imagined the characters black when he was writing in the 1980s? Wasn't there a ton of Jordan-sanctioned artwork depicting characters as clearly caucasian?

[Derfel Cadarn]

12 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

But on the other hand, the Two Rivers is a strongly forested area, with only small farms and villages in between. So unlike living in Texas/New Mexico, people wouldn't get quite as much sun exposure, and the planet being cooler, probably means that skin color isn't influenced much by the environment. We do see this being the case with the Aiel, though, while they still retain their genetic markers.

I haven't had to the chance to watch much of the video, yet, I have no doubt it will present compelling arguments. Ultimately, the peoples of this world are largely varied, with exceptions to the "rule" found in all nations. I would say the real defining groups existed in the Age of Legends, and then people dispersed as they could, though in some cases certain groups managed to stay cohesive like the Aiel and the Sea Folk. Migration waves continued to occur during the Trolloc Wars, the Hundred Year War, and other major wars. 

The people are mostly farmers, so they’d spend a lot of time out in their fields being exposed to the sun.

[Poobah]

7 hours ago, Gronzag said:

Is the guy trying to convince himself and others that Jordan imagined the characters black when he was writing in the 1980s? Wasn't there a ton of Jordan-sanctioned artwork depicting characters as clearly caucasian?

Someone didn't watch the video. Though I suppose if people had just paid attention to the world and instead just projected their own preconceptions it wouldn't have been necessary in the first place.

They focused almost entirely on actual canon in the video rather than speculation or anything like that, with quotations from the books, as well as from Jordan's notes and interviews, which, I mean is that not enough for you? A few points I would mention to add to them though:

They did mention in passing but I think it bears more consideration that The Wheel of Time takes place in the far far distant future. The world has had one cataclysm of some sort to end the first (this) age and then however long it too for the age of legends to peak as a utopian single global state with advanced magitec, mass globalisation, ease of transport to anywhere, etc. which existed in peace and harmony for so long that people had forgotten the very concept of war, then another massive cataclysm which turns everyone in the world into refugees and scatters people about, then 3000 more years since the breaking. It's entirely unreasonable at that point to suggest that modern ideas and categories of skin tone, or race, or whatever has any bearing whatsoever on what people would look like.

Jordan almost never talks about skin tone in his books, out of millions of words hardly any of them relate to what colour someone's skin is, and when he does it's usually in passing and fairly oblique or in simile - I just don't think he really cared about it that much. This is a writer who put thousands upon thousands of words in to describing the minute cultural customs of his various nations: their fashions, their hairstyles, their patterns of speech, rules of propriety, their unique culinary arts, attitudes towards sex and nudity, gender, class systems.... tens of thousands of words dedicated to culture and barely any to skin colouration. Clearly thematically what he was concerned with when it came to identity was culture, not race - what makes people different from one another in the wetlands isn't how they're born looking but how they act, how they dress themselves, what they believe in, how they style their hair and beards etc.

[Werthead]

8 hours ago, Gronzag said:

Is the guy trying to convince himself and others that Jordan imagined the characters black when he was writing in the 1980s? Wasn't there a ton of Jordan-sanctioned artwork depicting characters as clearly caucasian?

There was a lot of publisher-sanctioned artwork showing Trollocs as guys in funny hats, Perrin as about 5 feet tall and the artist famously said he he never bothered reading the books. Jordan didn't really give too much of a shit, he just let the publishers get on with it because that was their department, not his. Interestingly, he did have more directions for the (pretty bad) art in the world book which does depict a darker-skinned Nynaeve and an Asian Lan. The YA cover for The Great Hunt also shows a darker-skinned Egwene.

As said many times before, whilst clearly the characters don't look like they're from sub-Saharan Africa, but the evidence they are lily-white northern Europeans is also pretty thin. People just defaulted to that assumption based on their own prejudices.

[Ran]

 

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

Jordan almost never talks about skin tone in his books, out of millions of words hardly any of them relate to what colour someone's skin is

We know the skin tones and colorings of pretty much all the ethnic groups in Randland pretty clearly, so sure, he doesn't say so-and-so is copper-skinned or pale or dark all the time... but if he tells us they're a Domani or a Cairhienin or  a Seafolk, we know approximately what they look like.

 

[Maltaran]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

 

We know the skin tones and colorings of pretty much all the ethnic groups in Randland pretty clearly, so sure, he doesn't say so-and-so is copper-skinned or pale or dark all the time... but if he tells us they're a Domani or a Cairhienin or  a Seafolk, we know approximately what they look like.

 

The only ones I remember where he specifically described a person’s skin colour were Tuon and Semirhage both being black.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Maltaran said:

The only ones I remember where he specifically described a person’s skin colour were Tuon and Semirhage both being black.

Tuon and Semirhage are very (as in sub-Saharan African) black, the Sea Folk tend to be darker skinned but there is some variation (unsurprising given the wide geographic spread of the Sea Folk islands). Other countries are all over the place. Andor, Altara and especially Tear have a wide range of skin tones, from outright black-skinned (such as Ishara) through to relatively light-skinned (the Trakands). Some of the Borderlanders are described as Asian-looking but others are not, so there is some variation there. Illian is also quite varied, but people are more easily identified as Illianers because of their speech pattern rather than any appearance.

The Domani are probably the one national group who appear the most ethnically homogeneous, which is interesting as Arad Doman is also one of the very few countries not to border any other nation; they're not exactly isolated, but the cross-border opportunities for travel and migration seem limited in comparison. That said, although they are usually described as coppery-skinned, the single most prominent male Domani in the series, Rodel Ituralde, is never described as such (he is also described as being extremely short for a Domani, making me wonder if his family's origin was from outside Arad Doman) when the most prominent female Domani, Leane, is described as such multiple time per book whenever she shows up, so even that is not a given. Zhelle, one of Ituralde's soldiers, is also described as being a fair-skinned Domani, as is Tamore (a Domani dressmaker based in Tar Valon).

The Cairhienin tend towards being pale-skinned (they're the only national or ethnic group regularly described as pale-skinned) though with some exceptions, sometimes oddly in the same family (Dobraine is very pale for a Cairhienin, his cousin Breane is very tanned by the same standards, but not dark-skinned as such).

The Seanchan are the most varied, but given that the Seanchan continent spans an entire hemisphere from pole to pole (almost), that's unsurprising. They have more ethnic groups and different colourings than the Westlands several times over.

[Shaun Snow]

The Two Rivers people are white, with brown hair and brown eyes. They live in the equivalent of Robert Jordan's hometown and look like Robert Jordan. This isn't complicated.

[Poobah]

1 hour ago, Shaun Snow said:

The Two Rivers people are white, with brown hair and brown eyes. They live in the equivalent of Robert Jordan's hometown and look like Robert Jordan. This isn't complicated.

You wanna cite some sources on that one? Maybe some quotations from the text or Jordan himself?

[Ran]

18 hours ago, Werthead said:

 

The Domani are probably the one national group who appear the most ethnically homogeneous,

There's a lot more homogenity in Randland than that.

Almost all Saldaeans have tilted eyes and tend to dark hair and eyes (there's a red-haired, green-eyed Aes Sedai as I recall) and being a bit short . Almost all Arafellins are pale-skinned. Almost all Ebou Dari are olive-skinned. Almost all Tairens are dark (Siuan is fair, IIRC, but she's the only pale one I remember off hand). Most Taraboners are blond. Almost all Aiel are fair (but very tanned), tall, and have blond or red hair (the Shaido Wise One Alarys was I think maybe the only one explicitly said to be dark haired, a trait she was proud of IIRC since it made her stand out). Almost all Two Rivers folk are dark haired and eyed, and none can be described as pale, but OTOH pretty much no one thinks it's impossible that Rand's Tam al'Thor's son, he just takes after his mother.

 

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Rodel Ituralde, is never described as such

Never not described as such, either, though, so it's up in the air.

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Zhelle, one of Ituralde's soldiers, is also described as being a fair-skinned Domani,

A Brandon Sanderson character, it must be said, and an explicit point is made of him not being copper-skinned, right? One of the exceptions. And, wait, who is the person describing him? Because if it's Ituralde, then that kind of implicitly suggests Ituralde is copper-skinned...

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as is Tamore (a Domani dressmaker based in Tar Valon).

Fair-skinned "for a Domani" is an important qualifier here. Sounds like she's pale coppery rather than regular coppery.

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The Cairhienin tend towards being pale-skinned (they're the only national or ethnic group regularly described as pale-skinned) though with some exceptions, sometimes oddly in the same family (Dobraine is very pale for a Cairhienin, his cousin Breane is very tanned by the same standards, but not dark-skinned as such).

Cairhienin also tend to be quite short, too. Toram Riatin was rather proud of being "very tall" at like 6'.

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The Seanchan are the most varied, but given that the Seanchan continent spans an entire hemisphere from pole to pole (almost), that's unsurprising. They have more ethnic groups and different colourings than the Westlands several times over.

Did they ever make up names for provinces/satrapies/regions of Seanchan? Jordan left it relatively undeveloped but maybe Sanderson filled it in.

[Maltaran]

8 minutes ago, Ran said:

Did they ever make up names for provinces/satrapies/regions of Seanchan? Jordan left it relatively undeveloped but maybe Sanderson filled it in.

There are a few city names and some islands, I think Wert covers most of them in his map

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2018/08/31/the-wheel-of-time-atlas-seanchan/

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

There are a few city names and some islands, I think Wert covers most of them in his map

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2018/08/31/the-wheel-of-time-atlas-seanchan/

Oh, yes, some regions and cities in Big White Book appear on the map. Forgot that.

[Werthead]

6 hours ago, Shaun Snow said:

The Two Rivers people are white, with brown hair and brown eyes. They live in the equivalent of Robert Jordan's hometown and look like Robert Jordan. This isn't complicated.

They are Caucasian, with a likely Mediterranean appearance. They're certainly not sub-Saharan African, but they're not lily-white Scandinavians either.

Robert Jordan's hometown is Charleston, South Carolina, of which a quarter of the population is black (it used to be much higher, but dropped precipitously after 1865 for obscure historical reasons). Amusingly, the world map also puts the Two Rivers on the exact latitude of Charleston, and RJ himself said that the Two Rivers may actually be Charleston, with the geography just completely transformed in the Breaking (Charleston is built around two rivers, with its back to the Sand Hills, but obviously to the east lies the sea rather than inland territory). If anything, it would be illogical on that basis to expect the Two Rivers to be homogeneous in appearance, and there are some indications in the books this is so (Cenn Buie is described as being much darker-skinned than many of the other characters, for some reason).

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There's a lot more homogenity in Randland than that.

There are trends which hold somewhat true, moreso for some countries (Arad Doman and Cairhien mostly, Arafel likely behind them although Arafel and Kandor don't have very many characters from them described in the books) than for others. There's also a fair number of exceptions.

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Did they ever make up names for provinces/satrapies/regions of Seanchan? Jordan left it relatively undeveloped but maybe Sanderson filled it in.

All of the names for Seanchan locations come from Jordan or his notes. The few Seanchan-specific locations we have from the last three books are in the background information that Jordan provided (the island of Maram Kashor was named in Jordan's notes for the prominent KoD character Tylee Khirgan), and there was an absolute ton of information in the novels about the different Seanchan ethnic sub-groups. There was a lot of stuff in the WH-CoT-KoD arc where Mat semi-kidnaps Tuon and Seanchan hunting parties are sent after them, and we encounter some pretty varied characters (some of the Ogier Gardeners of Seanchan, the cannibal hill tribesmen of Kaensaeda etc).

The real shame is that RJ was apparently not a big map guy. He kept notes on locations in Seanchan but sadly didn't have a big map of the continent (or the main one) at home covered in names never mentioned in the books, which would have been cool.

[Darth Richard II]

9 hours ago, Shaun Snow said:

The Two Rivers people are white, with brown hair and brown eyes. They live in the equivalent of Robert Jordan's hometown and look like Robert Jordan. This isn't complicated.

That also isn't even remotely true. The fuck...