The Wheel of Time TV Show 3: Fan expectations are heavier than a mountain, success is lighter than a feather [BOOK SPOILERS]

[fionwe1987]

On 5/13/2020 at 10:11 AM, Ran said:

Almost all Saldaeans have tilted eyes and tend to dark hair and eyes (there's a red-haired, green-eyed Aes Sedai as I recall)

And she's said to be pretty obviously Saldean, so...

On 5/13/2020 at 10:11 AM, Ran said:

 and being a bit short . Almost all Arafellins are pale-skinned.

Jahar Narishma is not. Neither is Alanna. And they're the most prominent Arafellins in the books.

On 5/13/2020 at 10:11 AM, Ran said:

Almost all Ebou Dari are olive-skinned.

And northern Altarans commonly have blonde hair and fair skin.

On 5/13/2020 at 10:11 AM, Ran said:

Almost all Tairens are dark (Siuan is fair, IIRC, but she's the only pale one I remember off hand).

The Tairin nobility is mostly dark skinned. The commoners are mixed, ranging from Juilin to Siuan.

 

On 5/13/2020 at 10:11 AM, Ran said:

Almost all Aiel are fair (but very tanned), tall, and have blond or red hair (the Shaido Wise One Alarys was I think maybe the only one explicitly said to be dark haired, a trait she was proud of IIRC since it made her stand out).

The Aiel in the Waste fit this description. The Amayar, and the tribes of the Kaensada hills in Seanchan, also descended from the Da'Shain, look nothing like this. The Aiel in the Waste all came from Paraan Disen. And unlike a lot of other people who were scattered during the Breaking, their core held together. And they were notoriously hostile to outsiders after. That's the reason for their ethnic homogeneity. 

On 5/13/2020 at 10:11 AM, Ran said:

Almost all Two Rivers folk are dark haired and eyed, and none can be described as pale, but OTOH pretty much no one thinks it's impossible that Rand's Tam al'Thor's son, he just takes after his mother.

His mother was an outsider, though. Known to be grey eyed, and presumably fairer than Tam. As we know from the Elaida scene in the Throne Room in Ceamlyn, Rand is too pale skinned minus his tan for regular Two Rivers folk. 

In the end, I'll just say that well before the casting decisions, I read WoT and was able to imagine several of the main characters as brown skinned (as I am), without the text contradicting me regularly. I absolutely could not do this with other books, like GoT. This isn't scientific evidence or anything, but I'm not the only PoC who has felt that way about WoT. The reason for that is simple. RJ didn't write the Two Rivers as obviously filled with very fair skinned people. How dark he imagined their skins to be can be debated forever, but he hammered home very early that they weren't very pale, nor very dark. Something that perfectly fits the casting.

[szilard]

Perrin blushed very red

Egwene's cheeks turning pink, face went as white as snow, to hide her crimson face

Now, except for her [Egwene] big dark eyes, she could almost have passed as an Aiel woman, and not only for her tanned face and hands.

Faile red-cheeked, face went bright red

Berelain's face went white and red

Elayne knew her cheeks were red, reddened her cheeks, Elayne's face went crimson

Nynaeve said in a stiff voice. The red still colored her face.

if Elayne blushed like a sunset, Nynaeve blushed for two

Mat and Perrin, with their faces white.

Mat's face paled, Mat's face reddened

 

[Ran]

8 hours ago, szilard said:

Perrin blushed very red

 

I think these are a good reminder of RJ's standard toolset for describing characters, and the assumptions embedded in them. That said, non-caucasians can flush red or grow pale, but "white" and "bright red" , I admit, is pretty hard unless on the pale end of things.

[szilard]

10 hours ago, Ran said:

I think these are a good reminder of RJ's standard toolset for describing characters, and the assumptions embedded in them. That said, non-caucasians can flush red or grow pale, but "white" and "bright red" , I admit, is pretty hard unless on the pale end of things.

And the now infamous qoute from TGH (ch. 18):

her eyes had a tilt to them - Egwene barely stopped herself from goggling at that hair, those slightly slanted eyes.

Wait a minute, the 'Japanese' warriors in the first book are not 'Japanese' at all?! 

That reminds me: the whole series is about mixing things up (and, by the way, Jordan wanted to tell us a tale about mingling cultures, cultures clashing with each other); the new Breaking is all about blending cultures, people, customs etc.

And, Ran, you know, what is the saddest thing? One cannot post Robert Jordan's own words to WOT boards without called racist, a threat to other users (!), and one usually gets banned for this. Or you mention that the Big Six is heterosexual, and now, you are banned... (Do you dare to criticize BS? Instant ban...)

Where was I? So instead of making 'complex' theories, one should read Robert Jordan's books, plus read his words on casting.

But don't worry, the extremely talented showrunner will CORRECT Robert Jordan's very dated works, the extremely talented showrunner will cut out the unnecessary parts, and they will write their own material...

According to many different fan polls, the first (six) books are the most popular among the fans, so evidently the extremely talented showrunner has no other choice but mutilate and compress them, instead of finishing the TV adaptation with LOC. (To a proper adaptation up to LOC, you need a billion at least. So they should have chose another path, a logical one: a movie franchise.)

You're free to cast anyone you want, you can rewrite the whole series, just don't called it WOT.

(Maybe the extremely talented showrunner should go ASOIAF boards, where one could learn a thing or two about opinions of the fans.)

One more thing: in these days, when the US alone produces almost 600 (!) tv series in every year (ten years ago this number was 200), there's no lasting effect (especially when there are 18-24 months gaps between seasons), and every week brings a new, MUST SEE series (the workers of the marketing department need money too), and viewers consume them in huge quantities without remembering anything from them. (And now we know, that the industry now defines anything watched for at least two minutes as a 'view'.)

[Ran]

8 minutes ago, szilard said:

Or you mention that the Big Six is heterosexual, and now, you are banned... (Do you dare to criticize BS? Instant ban...)

What's this in reference to? Not the banning, please note that we don't discuss drama from other forums, but did Sanderson change the sexuality of one of the characters? Can't imagine it is any of the TR lads, so presumably it's Egwene or maybe Elayne?

[Martini Sigil]

Are people really upset that there are some brown-skinned people cat in this, who may have been initially written as Caucasian? Or is this just folks trolling?

My favorite example of skin color not making a difference is Ruth Negga's Tulip O'hare... that character --in the comics-- is blonde and white.... Ruth knocked it out of the park because the essence of the character --what made Tulp, Tulip-- had nothing to do with her skin color, but rather that she was fun AF, ballsey, and kind of nuts (in a good way).... 

Conversely, my issue with Zendaya's MJ is not the actress, but rather the way they've changed the character to fit a needless swerve (even changing the M from "mary" to Michelle").... Mary Jane Watson --MJ-- is not an awkward emo chick, she is the otherwise unattainable, popular beauty...  and Zendaya is a good enough actress to pull off the character, as written.... it was a needless altering of the character, that had nothing to do with skin color...

As for WoT... I expect that everything will be fine, provided the showrunner doesn;t re-invent (the essence of) main characters for little or no reason... providing that the casting is because these were the best actors for the part --and i have little doubt that it is-- this should be everything we hope it will be. 

[Darth Richard II]

She's not supposed to be Mary Jane Watson at all, or even close. The MJ thing was an in joke they put in the first movie that kind of snowballed.

[Rippounet]

Rand should look different from most TR people since (unless my memory is completely fried) that's a pretty major plot point from the beginning of the story.

Apart from that, eh... pretty sure anything flies. It's a multicultural fantasy world in a distant future...

As long as Tuon is black that is, because we were reminded of that every couple of pages or so.

There is one thing that has been bugging me for a while though. Seriously, am I the only one who would totally have inverted the actresses for Egwene and Nynaeve? Zoe Robins totally has the face and gaze that I imagined for Egwene and Madeleine Madden totally has exactly the face I imagined for Nynaeve. I read the books years ago and gave them to a friend so is it just me or was there something in their descriptions that supports this?

Also, the showrunners wrote season 2 during lockdown.

[Martell Spy]

28 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Rand should look different from most TR people since (unless my memory is completely fried) that's a pretty major plot point from the beginning of the story.

Apart from that, eh... pretty sure anything flies. It's a multicultural fantasy world in a distant future...

As long as Tuon is black that is, because we were reminded of that every couple of pages or so.

There is one thing that has been bugging me for a while though. Seriously, am I the only one who would totally have inverted the actresses for Egwene and Nynaeve? Zoe Robins totally has the face and gaze that I imagined for Egwene and Madeleine Madden totally has exactly the face I imagined for Nynaeve. I read the books years ago and gave them to a friend so is it just me or was there something in their descriptions that supports this?

Also, the showrunners wrote season 2 during lockdown.

Rand having red hair would be nice. I'll roll with it either way. If Thom Merrilin doesn't have magnificent mustaches though I'm going to have to bail.

[A True Kaniggit]

19 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Rand having red hair would be nice. I'll roll with it either way. If Thom Merrilin doesn't have magnificent mustaches though I'm going to have to bail.

Define "magnificent mustache".

[Rhom]

36 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Define "magnificent mustache".

Something that would put Sam Elliott from Tombstone to shame!

[A True Kaniggit]

16 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Something that would put Sam Elliott from Tombstone to shame!

You're setting one helluva high bar there.

 

Great. Now I need to dig up my copy of Tombstone. Think it's been at least half a year since I've watched it.

[szilard]

On 5/17/2020 at 8:57 AM, Ran said:

What's this in reference to? Not the banning, please note that we don't discuss drama from other forums, but did Sanderson change the sexuality of one of the characters? Can't imagine it is any of the TR lads, so presumably it's Egwene or maybe Elayne?

I do not read fan fictions, so I have no idea about books after KoD.

What we know for sure: the showrunner will change and overemphasise some characters' sexuality. 

Spoiler

(I was not banned: my brother-in-law, and many friends of mine were banned - they did not know that Sanderson is the greatest writer in the Universe...)

 

19 hours ago, Martini Sigil said:

Are people really upset that there are some brown-skinned people cat in this, who may have been initially written as Caucasian? Or is this just folks trolling?

I had been a member here for more than 14 years, I'm not a troll.

Spoiler

(Why do YOU care about So Much about pigmentation? Do you have any problems with white people?)

Look, GOT was quite successful without changing the description of the main characters (did not match with my imagination, I have to add, but I do not care about the tv show), except ageing them up.

And honestly, seeing the latest fashion in US television, I was totally suprised, that this time Rand will be male, heterosexual, moderately tall, healthy, and white.

But, the according to the showrunner the first season will be centered on Moi (and maybe in later seasons they can focus on Eg), so don't worry, you don't have to endure a faithful adaptation.

 

[Derfel Cadarn]

How’s the view from up on that cross?

God help the showrunners if Nynaeve doesn’t start off the show wearing sensible Two Rivers woollens, or if they miss out a single braid-pull...

[Corvinus85]

5 hours ago, szilard said:

I do not read fan fictions, so I have no idea about books after KoD.

What we know for sure: the showrunner will change and overemphasise some characters' sexuality. 

I had been a member here for more than 14 years, I'm not a troll.

Hold on a second. You haven't read the last 3 books? This makes me question whether or not you would have bothered watching the show in the first place, regardless of its look. So it seems trollish to me.

[Darth Richard II]

Profile says you joined a few days ago. I know this covid thing makes time slow down but ... yeah no.

and whose sexuality was changed? You keep making that claim 

[Poobah]

On 5/17/2020 at 7:57 AM, Ran said:

What's this in reference to? Not the banning, please note that we don't discuss drama from other forums, but did Sanderson change the sexuality of one of the characters? Can't imagine it is any of the TR lads, so presumably it's Egwene or maybe Elayne?

I assume he's referring to Sanderson having the TEMERITY to include a casual mention that one third or perhaps even fourth tier character was gay (Lord Algarin, whose brother Emarin could channel and whose name he took for himself when he went to the Black Tower to learn). I assume that's what this guy is in a frothing rage about what with all those terrible liberals invading modern media with their homosexuals and their non white casting choices.

[Ran]

13 minutes ago, Poobah said:

I assume he's referring to Sanderson

He commented already on this. I misunderstood, but his intention was to critique two separate things, one having to do with other forums which is neither here nor there, the other a concern that Judkins intends to change the sexuality of one of the six primary characters. The basis for that, I don't know. The sum total I know of Judkins's views on homosexual relationships in WoT is that he promised to have more lesbian and gay characters foregrounded than the novels did, and that there'd be lots of "pillow friends" featured in the Tower. I don't think this says anything about his fiddling with the primary characters. Though I do know that he implicitly intends to "improve" the character of Faile (specifically, calling her his least favorite character but that he intends to make her "awesome"), so I admit it's not utterly out of the realm of possibility that he thinks, say, Elayne and Egwene or Elayne and Aviendha falling for each other in a way they do not in the novels would fit within his views of what a good story would entail.

But that's speculative.

 

[Poobah]

22 minutes ago, Ran said:

He commented already on this. I misunderstood, but his intention was to critique two separate things, one having to do with other forums which is neither here nor there, the other a concern that Judkins intends to change the sexuality of one of the six primary characters. The basis for that, I don't know. The sum total I know of Judkins's views on homosexual relationships in WoT is that he promised to have more lesbian and gay characters foregrounded than the novels did, and that there'd be lots of "pillow friends" featured in the Tower. I don't think this says anything about his fiddling with the primary characters.

With regards to the show I think the general speculation is that given the mention of polyamory and it being understood that Rand just having a straight up harem of wives is kinda icky, it seems the most obvious and most in line with the existing canon course to take is to set sail on the Elayne and Aviendha ship, something a lot of people already shipped and tended to argue was already coded into the books anyway long before the show came around.

Personally when it came to the books that isn't my interpretation of what Jordan wrote, but they undeniably form an extremely close, intimate, friendship, and frankly have much more emotional connection with each other than they do with Rand. It's pretty ironic really how Jordan handles romantic relationships and LOVE with all the subtlety of a bull in a china shop whereas it seems that he can actually write something that can look very much like the foundation of an actual meaningful relationship if he just tries not to so instead of "they see each other and INSTANTLY FALL IN LOVE FOREVER, then a year later after occasionally thinking about that hotty they saw that one time meet up and, profess how they fell in love at first sight, kiss awkwardly and fade to black" he actually writes about two people getting to know each other and doing things together, sharing secrets, growing closer, talking together about mundane shit and complaining about the crap they have to deal with, y'know actually developing a relationship. While I read them as best friends I don't think it takes a particularly wild stab of imagination to interpret their relationship differently.

[Durckad]

PERSONALLY, getting rid of the "3 women fall in love with Rand" subplot is one of the things I really hope that the show does. It always felt like juvenile wish-fullfilment (even to teenage me) especially since Rand and Elayne's relationship falls into the "love at first glance" trope. They see each other once in a garden and now they love each other? Fuck off. Min's isn't much better but the build up to it is and there is some justification for it. 

I haven't read the last 3 books yet so if somehow this is improved upon, then okay, I'll reserve my judgment for now. But if these "relationships" are a casualty of the adaptation and Aviendah and Elayne end up in one instead? Good. At least those two actually have a relationship in the books.