The Wheel of Time TV Show 3: Fan expectations are heavier than a mountain, success is lighter than a feather [BOOK SPOILERS]

[SpaceChampion]

Didn't Elayne and Rand spend several months getting to know each other while in the Stone of Tear?  Likewise with Aviendha and Rand, there and on the journey to and through the Waste.  Likewise with Min pretty much the rest of the time after, amounting to over a year at least.

[Corvinus85]

12 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Didn't Elayne and Rand spend several months getting to know each other while in the Stone of Tear?  Likewise with Aviendha and Rand, there and on the journey to and through the Waste.  Likewise with Min pretty much the rest of the time after, amounting to over a year at least.

Elayne and Rand started having thoughts for each other soon after they met. And Min knew she would fall in love with Rand because of her viewing, and decided to act on it.

[williamjm]

4 hours ago, Durckad said:

PERSONALLY, getting rid of the "3 women fall in love with Rand" subplot is one of the things I really hope that the show does. It always felt like juvenile wish-fullfilment (even to teenage me) especially since Rand and Elayne's relationship falls into the "love at first glance" trope. They see each other once in a garden and now they love each other?

I felt that Elayne often had better chemistry with Mat than with Rand. I thought the relationship between Rand and Min felt more convincing.

[Ran]

I feel like the Elayne-Rand relationship was a victim of the ever-growing scope of the books, or alternatively that RJ simply died before he pulled  together all the threads he wanted. To me, the early youthful romance should probably have largely withered away by the time they reunite, and instead their personal developments and the political landscape should have led to something like a friendship that served as a foundation for a politically-motivated union rather than anything particularly romantic. My recollection from the last RJ books is there was some of that political tension in it, but Rand and Elayne basically were just as in love as they thought they were back at the start of TSR despite all the stuff going on with Rand; he had it a lot rougher than Elayne, experientially, so at the very least one could have expected him to have a much tempered feeling towards her that RJ didn't really seem willing to acknowledge, while I suppose Elayne could have remained more naïvely attached to her image of Rand... but that's not what happened.

But the idea of excising it all just because it doesn't play out exactly as one likes seems absurd to me. Why not just create an original story that has the features you want? Or just tweak the development of the characters to make the relationship feel more mature and realistic when they reunite? 

 

 

[fionwe1987]

I don't think you need Elayne and Aviendha to "end up" with each other as much as also have a relationship with each other AND Rand, to at least tone down the whole harem thing without completely upending the story.

RJ had plenty of bisexual characters in his books, and has said that both among the Aiel and the rest of Randland, such a thing would pass totally without comment. A prime example is Verin and Cadsuane's utter surprise that Shalon, the Sea Folk Windfindee, and Alil Riatin, the Cairheinin noble, cared to much to keep their affair secret. Graendal's bisexuality is also pretty obviously showcased, as is Aran'gar's after she transitions into her new body.

I personally don't think RJ ever meant for us to read a romantic bond between Aviendha and Elayne (though I agree with Poobah that their relationship is much more believable than Elayne's with Rand). But I'm also certain such a change would absolutely not faze him.

It seems like a fair add on to the story as it transitions to the screen. In the context of the 90s, having a few discreet lesbian and bisexuality characters of not much importance would have been just fine. I don't believe RJ would have felt restricted to that if he were writing the story today. While the relationship between Elayne, Aviendha, Min and Rand is important to the plot and story as it is, an added sexual attraction between Elayne and Aviendha doesn't really change a single thing, plot wise, while making the harem more palatable.

Also expect to be shown Aiel women with two husbands, something RJ implied but never showed. I'm sure that will get some folk's panties in a wad too, but it's another clear part of this world ripe for expanded exploration.

While RJ never did a great job depicting this, he was pretty clear that sexuality had no taboo associated with it in his world. Neither did abortions, female sexuality, even cross dressing. Why not choose to showcase these great aspects of his world with a deeper emphasis? 

 

[karaddin]

50 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

While RJ never did a great job depicting this, he was pretty clear that sexuality had no taboo associated with it in his world. Neither did abortions, female sexuality, even cross dressing. Why not choose to showcase these great aspects of his world with a deeper emphasis? 

 

Yeah there really is a lot of subjects that are now caught up in the all encompassing culture war (I mean even a fucking infectious disease and the wearing of masks in response to that is) where I think RJ pretty clearly wasn't on what I personally would call the bigot side of the equation, but he also wasn't interested in making a part of the themes of his story either. Which is completely OK and often better than trying to make it fit when you don't have the background necessary to do it justice anyway, I think your points in this post really do hit the center point of the rest of the earlier conversation as well - RJ clearly wasn't imagining a world that was entirely lily white. There was diversity across his entire world and racism for the most part isn't a thing that's happening, which meant he also wasn't exploring any themes around racism either. It's still a political position to acknowledge the world isn't homogeneous but a milder one that wasn't obvious enough to upset those inclined to that, but was there for those that wanted to see it.

On Avi and Elayne - I didn't read it that way either, but I think the whole polyamorous thing is WAY more palatable if you put those two in a relationship as well. You could incorporate Min as well but that's a much larger deviation from the source. So I welcome this idea for a change. But on the whole I'm keen for changes that improve the story, but I don't think the books are sacrosanct so its unsurprising I'm more open to changes. I think RJ wrote a very compelling story but had some clear weaknesses in his writing style, some of which are an excellent fit for smoothing out in the process of adaptation.

The above said, our recently joined associate was very concerned about any alteration to the pristine heterosexuality of the big six and I'm not sure if the above applies to that so he may be concerned about something else? If it was big five I'd assume it was Rand/Mat/Perrin/Egwene/Nynaeve as the core 5 from the TR. Elayne probably is the best guess to be the 6th but as the enormous sprawling story plays out there are plenty of others that have similar prominence in the story. Maybe it's Moiraine? She's there from the start after all. Of course you'd think if Moiraine made the big cut then Lan would as well. But Moiraine is actually one I'm pretty sure I did get a bisexual vibe from her past so that could fit - her and Siuan having been together when they're younger. Please dear concerned individual, confirm for us what it is you fear.

[Starkess]

The fact that Mr. 3-Posts-Ever thinks it's no big deal to age up the GoT characters for the show but it is a HORRIBLE CRIME AGAINST CANON to make some of the characters slightly darker than RJ might have pictured them is really telling.

[Rippounet]

Wait, Aviendha and Elayne did not have a thing going?

'kay, just kidding. But seriously, it was all a bit ambiguous. They both "loved" Rand and wanted to have sex with him but that never excluded the possibility of them having a bit more than sisterly love for each other.

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

They both "loved" Rand and wanted to have sex with him but that never excluded the possibility of them having a bit more than sisterly love for each other.

We're in both of their heads at various points. They have romantic notions about Rand, very clearly, but never express similar notions about one another at all. 

Personally, I'm a little squicked out by the idea of tossing Elayne and Aviendha into bed, because it feels kind of regressive and male-gazey. Oh, yeah, of course the two hot chicks who are BFFs really want to get into each other's pants...

Better to have Moiraine and Siuan still be an active relationship, if you really must. At least they did have a sexual relationship as novices, and maintained a friendship beyond that.

 

[fionwe1987]

24 minutes ago, Ran said:

We're in both of their heads at various points. They have romantic notions about Rand, very clearly, but never express similar notions about one another at all. 

Personally, I'm a little squicked out by the idea of tossing Elayne and Aviendha into bed, because it feels kind of regressive and male-gazey. Oh, yeah, of course the two hot chicks who are BFFs really want to get into each other's pants...

Better to have Moiraine and Siuan still be an active relationship, if you really must. At least they did have a sexual relationship as novices, and maintained a friendship beyond that.

 

Sure, I can see Moraine and Siuan having a continued sexual relationship make sense.

But I don't think Elayne-Aviendha has that kind of vibe. RJ really did put work into making them connect and become close. Everything is in place for a gradually growing romance, including risking their lives for each other, adopting each other's traditions, and so on. And Rand isn't present in any of it. He's barely a factor, in some ways. 

[ljkeane]

17 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

But I don't think Elayne-Aviendha has that kind of vibe. RJ really did put work into making them connect and become close. Everything is in place for a gradually growing romance, including risking their lives for each other, adopting each other's traditions, and so on.

Other than, you know, any suggestion that either of them are actually attracted to women or each other.

I have to agree with Ran. I think taking what is actually a quite interesting close female friendship and sexualising it, especially in the context of them being with Rand too, does feel a bit skeevy.

ETA: Just as an aside thinking about the series in terms of the relationship of various friends is kind of interesting. It starts out as being this group of four friends setting out together and by the end are any of them really friends anymore?

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Personally, I'm a little squicked out by the idea of tossing Elayne and Aviendha into bed, because it feels kind of regressive and male-gazey. Oh, yeah, of course the two hot chicks who are BFFs really want to get into each other's pants...

 

42 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

I have to agree with Ran. I think taking what is actually a quite interesting close female friendship and sexualising it, especially in the context of them being with Rand too, does feel a bit skeevy.

I find it really frustrating how same sex relationships between women are treated like they only exist as fan service for male viewers. I'm a polyamorous queer woman and we exist in our own right. It's how you depict the relationship that can make it skeevy, nothing inherent to including it. Show the relationship, show the intimacy, put very little emphasis on sex and don't make it male gaze when you do.

I don't actually disagree with any of the rest of your points, I don't think it was in the book, I'm not even close to demanding that this change would be made. I'm just saying that viewing depictions of female same sex relationships in that way is self fulfilling, and I would be very dramatically less skeeved out by 2 of the 3 women Rand is in a relationship with also being in a relationship with each other. It shifts the focus from being all about Rand getting this fantasy fulfillment to the relationships more generally.

Maybe you're picturing it only being shown via threesomes which are still entirely focused on the fantasy fulfillment?

[Werthead]

The Wheel of Time TV show's budget appears to be in the neighbourhood of $90 million for the first season, which puts it at well north of $10 million per episode. That's massively more than that ~$6 million per episode Game of Thrones enjoyed in its first season (whilst still somewhat short of the ~$16 million per episode in Season 8). It's also a lot more than the $7 million per episode The Witcher enjoyed in its first season.

[fionwe1987]

12 hours ago, ljkeane said:

 

 

12 hours ago, ljkeane said:

Other than, you know, any suggestion that either of them are actually attracted to women or each other.

I did say I didn't get sexual vibes from Raj's writing. That would have to be added. What I'm saying is the framework is there for that. Add a sexual tension between them to the rest of what is there, and their relationship slides into a believable romance easily. 

The same cannot be said, for example, between Nynaeve and Elayne. They're shown as growing close. Even chummy. There's lots of mutual respect. But there's nothing that lends itself to romance. 

12 hours ago, ljkeane said:

I have to agree with Ran. I think taking what is actually a quite interesting close female friendship and sexualising it, especially in the context of them being with Rand too, does feel a bit skeevy.

I'd be dead set against taking a close female friendship and sexualizing it in most other contexts because they're just so damn rare. In WoT, they are not. There's oodles of close female friendships with no sexual chemistry threatening to make the story into a stereotype of female relationships. 

Even in the context of Rand, Min and Elayne's friendship doesn't, and need not, have that connotation. So no, I don't particularly see this as skeevy. Especially since all of their relationship builds thousands of miles from Rand. He's not in the picture at all. There's simply no male gaze to make this tittilating.

12 hours ago, ljkeane said:

ETA: Just as an aside thinking about the series in terms of the relationship of various friends is kind of interesting. It starts out as being this group of four friends setting out together and by the end are any of them really friends anymore?

I'd say Perrin and Rand are. And Egwene and Nynaeve. That's about it, I think. Rand and Nynaeve were never friends, but whatever they were, that close relationship is preserved.

But I agree with whoever it was who said that RJ did friendships, same sex or otherwise, better than he did relationships. Nyneave and Lan. Rand and Min. Rand and Egwene. Is there any other major relationship that's well developed?

10 hours ago, Werthead said:

The Wheel of Time TV show's budget appears to be in the neighbourhood of $90 million for the first season, which puts it at well north of $10 million per episode. That's massively more than that ~$6 million per episode Game of Thrones enjoyed in its first season (whilst still somewhat short of the ~$16 million per episode in Season 8). It's also a lot more than the $7 million per episode The Witcher enjoyed in its first season.

Impressive. EotW needs such a budged, both to do it justice, but more importantly, to plant it in the minds of the audience as a Big Thing. Let's hope they used that money well.

[Darth Richard II]

Heh sorry if my late night spanking joke was taken the wrong way. I do wonder how the hell they are going to address that stuff if they get that far. 

[A True Kaniggit]

Just cut the spanking entirely?

What I want to know is if they’re gonna get Loial’s sexy eyebrows right. 

[Darth Richard II]

8 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Just cut the spanking entirely?

What I want to know is if they’re gonna get Loial’s sexy eyebrows right. 

I dunno there’s a couple points where it kinda of affects the characters but it’s been forever since I read these. I’m sure they could just change it to some kind of different punishment.

[A True Kaniggit]

3 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I dunno there’s a couple points where it kinda of affects the characters but it’s been forever since I read these. I’m sure they could just change it to some kind of different punishment.

Yeah. Now that I think about it, there are quite a few.

Perrin spanks Faile. Matt spanks Joline. Cadsuane spanks Semhirage. Egwene gets spanked by...... I forgot her name. Elaida's Mistress of Novices.

Probably others I'm missing.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh it was a running joke fir a long time that RJ had a spanking fetish. There was something about one of the characters enduring terrible spankings or something I think.

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'd say Perrin and Rand are. And Egwene and Nynaeve. That's about it, I think. Rand and Nynaeve were never friends, but whatever they were, that close relationship is preserved.

But I agree with whoever it was who said that RJ did friendships, same sex or otherwise, better than he did relationships. Nyneave and Lan. Rand and Min. Rand and Egwene. Is there any other major relationship that's well developed?

Bolded - Yeah I think Rand and Nynaeve is probably the thing he handled the best in the books, its well and truly earned as it develops consistently over the books and is real and relatively unique as a type of relationship.

Second part I want to say there has to be someone else but I'm drawing blanks. I think that might actually be it. Maybe Matt and Tuon? I don't love how it starts but it does develop well from there.