The Wheel of Time TV Show 3: Fan expectations are heavier than a mountain, success is lighter than a feather [BOOK SPOILERS]

[ljkeane]

6 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Especially since all of their relationship builds thousands of miles from Rand. He's not in the picture at all.

I disagree with that. Their relationship develops beyond their connection with Rand but it all takes place in the context of them being destined to be in love with him. Them developing a close friendship is something outside of that, them developing a romantic relationship I think comes across as secondary to their relationship with Rand which is 'fate'.

You could argue that's a problem with the Rand's predetermined harem thing rather than any potential romantic relationship between Elayne and Aviendha, I wouldn't disagree, but there you go. I think a more high profile same sex relationship in the books would have been good but making it one between two women who're locked into a fated relationship with a man doesn't feel like a good way to go for me.

6 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'd say Perrin and Rand are. And Egwene and Nynaeve. That's about it, I think. Rand and Nynaeve were never friends, but whatever they were, that close relationship is preserved.

That is a good point about Nynaeve. I wasn't counting her as one of the friends to start the series but, yeah, she does maintain her relationship with Rand and the others.

[karaddin]

I think the point about Rand wasn't that he's irrelevant in their relationship but that he's physically absent. They aren't building an active relationship with him at the time the relationship with each other develops.

I also just don't get the issue with women being bisexual even if they are in a destined relationship with a man.

[ljkeane]

Just now, karaddin said:

I also just don't get the issue with women being bisexual even if they are in a destined relationship with a man.

It's not that they're bisexual, it's that it comes across as secondary to their relationship with Rand. If the whole group relationship develops more naturally rather than having the fixed significance of their relationship with Rand maybe it'd be better or even if there were other high profile same sex relationships. Picking a relationship between two women who already have a set relationship with a man which is apparently of great cosmic significance as the one front and centre same sex relationship in the series seems off to me.

[Poobah]

On the one hand I do tend to agree with.... I also find it uncomfortable and kinda squicky when fandoms decide to ship every single fucking pairing under the sun, especially when they take an intimate platonic friendship and add sex to it because that's what gets shippers off. I also agree that them both being in love with Rand is a major motivating factor within the beginnings of Elayne and Aviendha choosing to consciously develop their pre-existing friendship into something deeper, I think it's unfair to say that what grew into the deep bond of sisterhood that they develop to the point of going through that Aiel bonding / rebirthing-as-sisters / (wedding?) ceremony together to formalise it is about Him, I think it's explicitly the opposite.

As we see with Gaul's troubles trying to court Chiad the thing with being first-sisters (or, presumably brothers) with someone to the Aiel is that to them their relationship with their "first-sibling" is their most important relationship, more important to them than something so banal as a someone that one of them might want to marry. Becoming first-sisters is saying "you're my best friend, you're my family, I'm never anyone else (certainly not just some attractive man-meat) divide us" and so Chiad won't start any kinda relationship with Gaul because Bain is more important to her and she has a veto, they both have to want it or neither will allow their primary relationship to be threatened. That relationship is explicitly hierarchically superior to that of a husband or lover as far as Aiel customs (which are as strong as laws to the Aiel) are concerned, and that's the relationship Elayne and Aviendha consciously choose to cultivate and formally instate/acknowledge, I don't think that's minor and I don't think it's just something they did because of Rand and I think it's very clearly not secondary to what they have with Rand.

Contextually they both spend most of the series apart from Rand and with each other - in terms of page time I think Rand spends like, fewer than 10 chapters with Elayne total in the entire series, Aviendha spends all of TSR and TFoH with him though she spends most of it berrating him for his lack of respect and understanding of Aiel culture, generally tsundere-hating him, reminding him he belongs to Elayne and embarrassing him by describing how hot she is, then when they eventually have Igloo sex she's so consumed by guilt that she runs off to find and confess to Elayne at the earliest opportunity. After that Elayne and Aviendha spend the next 6 books together, interacting with Rand once in that time (after they became first-sisters) to bond him and so Elayne can get to ride the dragon Rand meanwhile spends pretty much the entire series from the point at the start of LoC where Aviendha leaves up until the last battle with Min, which is clearly (in my eyes) his actual primary relationship - his relationships with Elayne and Aviendha are mostly symbolic and of thematic (and author-wank) rather than plot relevance.

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

I think the point about Rand wasn't that he's irrelevant in their relationship but that he's physically absent. They aren't building an active relationship with him at the time the relationship with each other develops.

I also just don't get the issue with women being bisexual even if they are in a destined relationship with a man.

The way (female) homosexuality / bisexuality is depicted in WoT is at best problematic, and frankly, I think the adaption badly needs to do better in this area or not comment on it at all given that the canon line seems to be that "pillow friend" relationships are seen as somewhat juvenile and a woman just needs to find the right man to settle down with.

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Poobah said:

The way (female) homosexuality / bisexuality is depicted in WoT is at best problematic,

I'll go with this too.

@Ran True, Elayne and Aviendha did not have feelings for one another... But their sisterly bond was also rooted in the need/desire to not be rivals despite sharing the same man... It kinda was a sort of male fantasy as well... With a comedy vibe not unlike what's to be found in harem-mangas. I remember thinking the whole thing a bit... er... weird.

Would it be worse to make them a couple? Maybe, maybe not. Let's bear in mind, if they're just friends, the on-screen relationship will be quite ambiguous anyway. But ambiguity can be tasteful... Like korrasami in Avatar:LoK for instance.

A good compromise imho would be for Elayne and Aviendha to start as rivals and then become progressively distant with Rand...

[Derfel Cadarn]

They could remove all mention of ‘sharing’ him, and if he ‘has’ to have kids with Elayne and Aviendha, make it ONS/ a temp fling?

Do we actually need Min in the series?

[Starkess]

15 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

 

I did say I didn't get sexual vibes from Raj's writing. That would have to be added. What I'm saying is the framework is there for that. Add a sexual tension between them to the rest of what is there, and their relationship slides into a believable romance easily. 

The same cannot be said, for example, between Nynaeve and Elayne. They're shown as growing close. Even chummy. There's lots of mutual respect. But there's nothing that lends itself to romance. 

I actually see it the exact opposite. Elayne and Avi develop a literal sisterhood that I find to be far from a sexual relationship. The entire notion of one between them feels a bit squicky/incesty to me. Nynave and Elayne, on the other hand, have exactly the kind of arguing-tolerating-exasperating relationship that is often used as an indicator or precursor of sexual tension.

ETA: Min is absolutely an important and major character. I see a 0% chance of her being cut.

[A True Kaniggit]

Reread it is. Been at least a year I think.

Silvia? Silvinia? Obviously my memory needs refreshed. 

[Corvinus85]

12 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Reread it is. Been at least a year I think.

Silvia? Silvinia? Obviously my memory needs refreshed. 

Are you talking about Silviana, the Red who is appointed Mistress of Novices by Elaida? What about her? 

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

Are you talking about Silviana, the Red who is appointed Mistress of Novices by Elaida? What about her? 

Total bitch.

[A True Kaniggit]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Are you talking about Silviana, the Red who is appointed Mistress of Novices by Elaida? What about her? 

My post like 8 back. I couldn’t remember her name.  

[A True Kaniggit]

3 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Total bitch.

Because she spanked adult women?

[Jace, Extat]

3 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Because she spanked adult women?

I'd kill her for it.

[Corvinus85]

Did Egwene keep her in the job after reuniting the Tower?

[A True Kaniggit]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Did Egwene keep her in the job after reuniting the Tower?

Yes. She made her her Keeper. 

[Poobah]

2 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Do we actually need Min in the series?

Absolutely. Min's a unique and pivotal character. I'd find it easier to cut Elayne or even Egwene than Min.

23 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Total bitch.

I remember rather liking Silviana. I certainly wouldn't describe her as a bitch - I should note that I don't support any kind of (non consensual) corporal punishment of anyone, but that is a very modern view and I accept that it is regarded as entirely acceptable and proper in Randland so I don't judge Silviana purely for doing it and all her classic Jordan ass-spanking was impersonal not done out of any sense of malice towards Egwene (or, for that matter sadistic enjoyment) if anything she regarded it as a regretful necessity in my recollection. She did her duty to carry out a punishment set by her ruler but didn't take any pleasure in it the way it seems many of the Reds would have, she showed ongoing concern for Egwene's well being and eventually rebelled against Elaida over her growing demands for increasingly inhumane treatment. To my reading that says good things about her overall character given the context of the society she is in.

1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

Did Egwene keep her in the job after reuniting the Tower?

Egg made her her new Keeper of the Chronicles.

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Poobah said:

Absolutely. Min's a unique and pivotal character. I'd find it easier to cut Elayne or even Egwene than Min.

I remember rather liking Silviana. I certainly wouldn't describe her as a bitch - I should note that I don't support any kind of (non consensual) corporal punishment of anyone, but that is a very modern view and I accept that it is regarded as entirely acceptable and proper in Randland so I don't judge Silviana purely for doing it and all her classic Jordan ass-spanking was impersonal not done out of any sense of malice towards Egwene (or, for that matter sadistic enjoyment) if anything she regarded it as a regretful necessity in my recollection. She did her duty to carry out a punishment set by her ruler but didn't take any pleasure in it the way it seems many of the Reds would have, she showed ongoing concern for Egwene's well being and eventually rebelled against Elaida over her growing demands for increasingly inhumane treatment. To my reading that says good things about her overall character given the context of the society she is in.

 

I don't buy this concept that demeaning punishments grant powerful women perspective. It's dumb as shit and a teensy weensy bit patronizing. 

It's Jordan's world, he got to make it the way he wanted. There's more BDSM in Wheel of Time than a librarian's Incogneto search tab. I don't begrudge him that. But his understanding of sexuality was... suspect and skewed. To say the least.

[Darth Richard II]

5 hours ago, Poobah said:

On the one hand I do tend to agree with.... I also find it uncomfortable and kinda squicky when fandoms decide to ship every single fucking pairing under the sun,

Oh that's nothing, at least there isn't incest involved.

[Poobah]

52 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I don't buy this concept that demeaning punishments grant powerful women perspective. It's dumb as shit and a teensy weensy bit patronizing.

I totally agree.

52 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

It's Jordan's world, he got to make it the way he wanted. There's more BDSM in Wheel of Time than a librarian's Incogneto search tab. I don't begrudge him that. But his understanding of sexuality was... suspect and skewed. To say the least.

I'm... unsure about whether or not I think Jordan had some sort of kink or fetish. On the one hand I do think there's what I would regard as an unusually large/frequent amount of spanking but none of it reads hot or sexualised which seems bizarre if someone were writing their kink into their world. The one Semirhage PoV where she tortures Cabriana Mecandes and her warder he even has a totally legitimate excuse, but I re-read it just now for this post and the scenario is ripe for it but Semirhage our supposed sociopathic (psychopathic?) sexual sadist seems.... bored, introspective, her mind wanders, she's not at all engaged in the moment and to me that's sorta telling. Like, I can understand why someone might write an interrogator that way, but I don't think someone interested in or knowledgable about sadomasochism would write Semirhage like that given what we're supposed to believe about her.

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Poobah said:

I totally agree.

I'm... unsure about whether or not I think Jordan had some sort of kink or fetish. On the one hand I do think there's what I would regard as an unusually large/frequent amount of spanking but none of it reads hot or sexualised which seems bizarre if someone were writing their kink into their world. The one Semirhage PoV where she tortures Cabriana Mecandes and her warder he even has a totally legitimate excuse, but I re-read it just now for this post and the scenario is ripe for it but Semirhage our supposed sociopathic (psychopathic?) sexual sadist seems.... bored, introspective, her mind wanders, she's not at all engaged in the moment and to me that's sorta telling. Like, I can understand why someone might write an interrogator that way, but I don't think someone interested in or knowledgable about sadomasochism would write Semirhage like that given what we're supposed to believe about her.

He may not be into the sadism part, but he loves binding and spanking people.