The Wheel of Time TV Show 3: Fan expectations are heavier than a mountain, success is lighter than a feather [BOOK SPOILERS]

[Rhom]

So many names...  WTF?!!?  I read the books, most of them multiple times, but I don't even begin to remember a Cabriana!

[Corvinus85]

13 minutes ago, Rhom said:

So many names...  WTF?!!?  I read the books, most of them multiple times, but I don't even begin to remember a Cabriana!

And we expect every single one of these characters to be in the show! Read the thread title! 

[Martell Spy]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

And we expect every single one of these characters to be in the show! Read the thread title! 

It is a tall order just casting and costuming all those warders.

[Poobah]

4 minutes ago, Rhom said:

So many names...  WTF?!!?  I read the books, most of them multiple times, but I don't even begin to remember a Cabriana!

She's a rando Aes Sedai, certainly not important. I'm pretty sure her only appearance is when she's being tortured by Semirhage, maybe she also appears in New Spring in passing? The information about her is used to give Aran'gar a cover story that she was a friend of Cabriana so she could infiltrate the rebel Aes Sedai under the alias "Halima".

[Martini Sigil]

Surely, in order to create a TV show from a story this vast, more than a few characters will be merged, and several sub-plots will be gone, a la Arianne Martell

[Jace, Extat]

1 minute ago, Martini Sigil said:

Surely, in order to create a TV show from a story this vast, more than a few characters will be merged, and several sub-plots will be gone, a la Arianne Martell

Well Jesus, hopefully it's not like THAT. Dorne was like adding a gangrenous limb, not condensing story lines.

[Derfel Cadarn]

It’s perhaps telling that so nany female Forsaken and Black Ajah end up sexually abused/humiliated/enslaved

[Martini Sigil]

7 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Well Jesus, hopefully it's not like THAT. Dorne was like adding a gangrenous limb, not condensing story lines.

LOL... sorry... I felt that I needed to drive home the point...lol

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Poobah said:

Absolutely. Min's a unique and pivotal character. I'd find it easier to cut Elayne or even Egwene than Min.

 

Egwene's pretty much the co-protagonist of the series (along with Rand), so really not so much. Elayne you can cut because her story arc doesn't really have an ending: apparently RJ never decided whether she'd unite Cairhien and Andor at the end of the series, so without that her arc is left hanging in mid-air. You'd be better off just having Morgase's arc as a subplot (she loses the crown to Gaebril and basically gets it back at the end of the series).

Min is important as the only person Rand trusts and the only person he can confide in during the middle and latter part of the series, which is fairly important. I'm not convinced it's super-critical or there's another way around that.

It's a moot point as Elayne and Min are both in the series (and I suspect cast, but not announced because they hadn't started filming their scenes yet or they were in the series very briefly).

[Poobah]

1 hour ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

It’s perhaps telling that so nany female Forsaken and Black Ajah end up sexually abused/humiliated/enslaved

I'd suggest that Rand's absurd inability to kill women must be something taken directly out of Jordan's psyche. I've noted in the past that it's icky as fuck that male baddies universally die whereas female ones mostly end up alive with some sort of "karmic punishment" "fate worse than death" type deal. Frankly I hope we see less or even none of this in the show. Absolutely nothing would be lost if all the Shaido including Galina are wiped out, or if Suroth were executed, or Liandrin killed by Moghedien for her failure, to name but a few random ones that stick out in my mind.  Not to even get in to all the female forsaken rape punishment stuff - tbh I think if Jordan had any particular fetish per my earlier disagreement with @Jace, Basilissa it was (significantly more disturbingly) for punishment rape, rather than spanking.

1 hour ago, Martini Sigil said:

Surely, in order to create a TV show from a story this vast, more than a few characters will be merged, and several sub-plots will be gone, a la Arianne Martell

Urgh GoT's Dorne

I've always felt that if anything WoT had room to expand on some of its plots. I mean certainly we're not going to get fleshed out roles for all the named characters but at the same time WoT's plot is a lot less intricate and intrigue-y than ASoIaFs and certainly contains way less ultra important dialogue which is the biggest time drain when it comes to translating from page to screen IMO. Plus so much of the pagecount is either a) before Travelling is just people getting from A to B and b) after Travelling Jordan feeling like he needs to keep including full length chapters of characters sitting around doing not much just so we can catch up with them and treat them as important characters doing important things when really he'd just not written as much plot for them or he was stalling out the clock waiting for timelines to converge for things to happen at the right time for the plot (particularly I'm thinking of some of the Egwene and her army+siege stuff, lots of Elayne's succession stuff, oodles of Perrin bullshit, anything involving that damn circus). 

With regards to characters I think there are some characters who might drift in and out of focus, and there are a lot of less important ones who can just stay forever out of focus but I think it'd be really really hard to remove or merge major ones, certainly harder than with GoT because WoT has a written ending and complete arcs of significance / plot relevance for the actual conclusion of the series for most of them.

41 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Egwene's pretty much the co-protagonist of the series

Only in her own massively ego-inflated mind! But really I picked Egwene as a crazy extreme example, because if we're getting to the absurd point of taking the axe to major characters like Min then the argument could be made for Egwene too - you could give her Rebel Amyrlin role to Siuan, and have either Aviendha step up to do all the dreamwalking or have it be Moiraine who learns it from the Wise Ones and subsequently passes it on to Siuan, Elayne or Nynaeve could easily be the one to get leashed at Falme etc.

41 minutes ago, Werthead said:

It's a moot point as Elayne and Min are both in the series (and I suspect cast, but not announced because they hadn't started filming their scenes yet or they were in the series very briefly).

Agree, as I said above I think most of the speculative discussion of the supposed necessity of axing or merging characters all over the place is greatly exaggerated in a lot of fan speculation.

[fionwe1987]

19 hours ago, karaddin said:

Bolded - Yeah I think Rand and Nynaeve is probably the thing he handled the best in the books, its well and truly earned as it develops consistently over the books and is real and relatively unique as a type of relationship.

Agreed.

19 hours ago, karaddin said:

Second part I want to say there has to be someone else but I'm drawing blanks. I think that might actually be it. Maybe Matt and Tuon? I don't love how it starts but it does develop well from there.

Meh. It could have gone interesting places, but Sanderson absolutely cannot write Mat, and I honestly cannot say their relationship went anywhere after KoD.

14 hours ago, ljkeane said:

I disagree with that. Their relationship develops beyond their connection with Rand but it all takes place in the context of them being destined to be in love with him. Them developing a close friendship is something outside of that, them developing a romantic relationship I think comes across as secondary to their relationship with Rand which is 'fate'.

Why is their friendship outside that, but a potential romantic relationship not? Obviously, this would depend on how they handle it, but if a successful close relationship could be built from the starting point of them both loving Rand, I really don't see why a sexual and romantic one can't be, especially since it will take place thousands of miles from Rand with zero involvement from him, and based on plotlines and events that don't involve him much either.

14 hours ago, ljkeane said:

You could argue that's a problem with the Rand's predetermined harem thing rather than any potential romantic relationship between Elayne and Aviendha, I wouldn't disagree, but there you go. I think a more high profile same sex relationship in the books would have been good but making it one between two women who're locked into a fated relationship with a man doesn't feel like a good way to go for me.

I'm still not getting what one has to do with the other. I'm not saying this is the only possible or acceptable same sex relationship. But neither of them has much of a relationship with Rand. Their most substantial relationship is with each other. Their most dominant interactive character is the other. More words are spent building their relationship with each other than either's with Rand. 

Hell, they even met and became friends well before either knew they were fated to be with Rand. Well, Elayne kinda knew but disbelieved the whole thing about sharing her lover with two others. But when they met in Cairhein, Aviendha didn't know. When they met again in Tear, Aviendha didn't know she was fated to love Rand, and Elayne knew she was interested in Rand, but didn't know if he reciprocated her feelings. Have them also be attracted to each other at this stage, and you've neatly removed any dependency on Rand at all.

9 hours ago, Poobah said:

The way (female) homosexuality / bisexuality is depicted in WoT is at best problematic, and frankly, I think the adaption badly needs to do better in this area or not comment on it at all given that the canon line seems to be that "pillow friend" relationships are seen as somewhat juvenile and a woman just needs to find the right man to settle down with.

I wouldn't say that is how the canon sees the whole "pillow friend" thing. Some Aes Sedai are shown to see it that way, but by no means all. We come across plenty of them who are still into women, or exclusively women (and not all are Reds), even if they see engaging in relationships with their pillow friends to be wrong, if there was a time when one was promoted over the other.

I agree it is unfortunate that the most prominent characters who were "pillow friends" end up seeing it this way, and Siuan and Moiraine can certainly be changed in the show to get rid of that view, since neither had any reason to have to give up their sexual or romantic interaction. They were raised on the same day, and unless Moiraine's adventures had her become stronger in the Power than Siuan for a while (of which there is no hint in the books), they'd never have to take lead over the other by Aes Sedai custom.

5 hours ago, Starkess said:

I actually see it the exact opposite. Elayne and Avi develop a literal sisterhood that I find to be far from a sexual relationship. The entire notion of one between them feels a bit squicky/incesty to me. Nynave and Elayne, on the other hand, have exactly the kind of arguing-tolerating-exasperating relationship that is often used as an indicator or precursor of sexual tension.

I'm not saying their sexual relationship proceed with them adopting each other as sisters. I'm saying one replaces the other. There's nothing incestuous about two women from different countries falling in love.

4 hours ago, Poobah said:

Absolutely. Min's a unique and pivotal character. I'd find it easier to cut Elayne or even Egwene than Min.

Uhhh... that's ludicrous. Plot wise, Egwene and Elayne are way more critical to the story than Min. You could have Elayne or Aviendha be the one Rand grows closest to (not without some major plot shifting, though, which is why Min will rightly not be cut), but neither Elayne nor Egwene is similarly replaceable. The suggestion that Siuan could be the Rebel Amyrlin is ludicrous. For one thing, there's no earthly reason Elaida wouldn't personally take a hacksaw to her neck the moment she got captured, if she were to replace Egwene. The entire campaign to win the Tower from within as a Novice, and the whole Seanchan angle dies if you take out Egwene. Not to mention the thematic saidin-saidar stuff you have between Rand and Egwene, which Siuan certainly cannot fulfill.

1 hour ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

It’s perhaps telling that so nany female Forsaken and Black Ajah end up sexually abused/humiliated/enslaved

Yes. And it is completely gross, and needs to be altered in the show.

[karaddin]

4 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

He may not be into the sadism part, but he loves binding and spanking people.

I'd always read it as the other way around. And a desire be was so convinced could never be realised it's repressed to the point he didn't realise he was putting it into the books, which is why it's often not even sexualized.

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

Hell, they even met and became friends well before either knew they were fated to be with Rand. Well, Elayne kinda knew but disbelieved the whole thing about sharing her lover with two others. But when they met in Cairhein, Aviendha didn't know. When they met again in Tear, Aviendha didn't know she was fated to love Rand, and Elayne knew she was interested in Rand, but didn't know if he reciprocated her feelings. Have them also be attracted to each other at this stage, and you've neatly removed any dependency on Rand at all.

I like this approach, neatly dodges centering Rand on their relationship as you said. It probably comes down to the actresses. You see them meet and have lightning between them on screen, like has happened in many cases where it wasn't even intended, then this could really work. If they don't have that kind of chemistry I think just go with the platonic approach.

Just don't make straight men the judge of whether that chemistry is there and we're good :p

[fionwe1987]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

I'd always read it as the other way around. And a desire be was so convinced could never be realised it's repressed to the point he didn't realise he was putting it into the books, which is why it's often not even sexualized.

We now have a completely non-falsifiable hypothesis, here. The lack of evidence is actually proof, now? 

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

I like this approach, neatly dodges centering Rand on their relationship as you said. It probably comes down to the actresses. You see them meet and have lightning between them on screen, like has happened in many cases where it wasn't even intended, then this could really work. If they don't have that kind of chemistry I think just go with the platonic approach.

Just don't make straight men the judge of whether that chemistry is there and we're good :p

Yep. And amen to the last part.

[karaddin]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

We now have a completely non-falsifiable hypothesis, here. The lack of evidence is actually proof, now? 

Lol. Look your point is fair. I think if you look back through my posts in the last few days you'll see I'm making no judgement of the man though. Its just a little flavour or colour around how I read the book, that's all. A laugh of love.

[fionwe1987]

5 hours ago, karaddin said:

Lol. Look your point is fair. I think if you look back through my posts in the last few days you'll see I'm making no judgement of the man though. Its just a little flavour or colour around how I read the book, that's all. A laugh of love.

Fair enough. I haven't waded into the whole "what does the presence of this kind of physical punishment mean about RJ" because I think it's silly. There's nothing sexualized about it at all. We never get much in the way of detailed descriptions. Even in Knife of Dreams, where there's a chapter where Egwene is being spanked/paddled almost every second page, the focus is on her inner monologue and how she overcomes it, not a pornographic presentation of a woman spanking another.

On the other hand, RJs inability to kill his female villains, and having them end up as sexual playthings, or being raped, while being just as pervasive, actually has a more solid backing as something you can psychoanalyze RJ by. His male characters, especially those coded as particularly heroic and honorable, have a reluctance to kill women. Heck, Moraine has to "die" because she knows Rand won't be able to kill Lanfear.

RJ was aware enough of this to interrogate it in the books, but he definitely wasn't able to overcome it.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

19 hours ago, Poobah said:

I'd suggest that Rand's absurd inability to kill women must be something taken directly out of Jordan's psyche. I've noted in the past that it's icky as fuck that male baddies universally die whereas female ones mostly end up alive with some sort of "karmic punishment" "fate worse than death" type deal.

Well, he did say in an interview that he was deeply affected by killing a female Viet Cong soldier during a battle, so I would guess it has something to do with that. 

Robert Jordan was unusual compared to many other fantasy authors in that he was a military officer with extensive combat experience, which I think colors his books quite a bit. 

[Corvinus85]

I wonder if what happens to Birgitte during the Last Battle is all Sanderson, or RJ had some notes on that. I don't see RJ writing that scene, but Sanderson does seem to love decapitations.

[Rhom]

24 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

I wonder if what happens to Birgitte during the Last Battle is all Sanderson, or RJ had some notes on that. I don't see RJ writing that scene, but Sanderson does seem to love decapitations.

I've always said I'd love to see a "red letter edition" of the last three books just to see what exactly was an RJ passage.  I think it would do two things, 1) highlight just how little he really did have prepared towards completion and 2) clarify what he is to "blame" for.

Although, the fact that Rand wanders off into the sunset in another man's body wondering which of his harem will come looking for him first despite the fact he has at least two kids on the way is one of the worst endings to a book I can ever imagine and knowing that it is 100% RJ doesn't help in the least.

ETA:  Hell... Jorg Ancrath in Mark Lawrence's Broken Empire series is one of the most despicable protagonists you will ever meet... 

Spoiler

and he winds up a better father than Rand!!!!!!

 

[Jace, Extat]

2 minutes ago, Rhom said:

 

Although, the fact that Rand wanders off into the sunset in another man's body wondering which of his harem will come looking for him first despite the fact he has at least two kids on the way is one of the worst endings to a book I can ever imagine and knowing that it is 100% RJ doesn't help in the least.

Really? That was like the only ending I thought was any good.

[Rhom]

1 minute ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Really? That was like the only ending I thought was any good.

I'm cool with letting the world think he's dead.  I even accept that he will have the three lovers.  But the fact that he leaves without saying goodbye and has no plans to travel to see them at all and wonders which will chase him while completely ignoring that Elayne is pregnant just doesn't seem like Rand.

(Its a little ick that they love him in the new body... but I get it.)