Pardon for Rickard Karstark

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 9/4/2019 at 11:08 AM, Anck Su Namun said:

I read a similar topic asking what the appropriate punishment for Catelyn.  She is guilty of letting an important POW go.  I will instead ask for you all to consider pardoning Rickard Karstark.  Here are my reasons for believing he should have been pardoned.

1. Robb Stark called his banners because he loved his father.  It mattered little or not at all if Eddard had actually been guilty of treason.  The Starks were going to rescue him anyway.  The number of people who will die didn't matter.  It was about family.
2. Catelyn Tully Stark arrested Tyrion in order to take him to trial for the attempted murder of her son.  She knew the consequences.  She knew many innocents will die because of this.  It didn't matter because it was about her son.  What did it matter that the children of innocent peasants and lords alike will die as long as she gets satisfaction for her son's injuries.  This is all about family after all.
3. The Starks started a rebellion fifteen years ago in order to protect Ned and Robert from a completely legal request by King Aerys.  Would it matter if Rickard and the Baratheons were plotting against the throne?  That would be wrong and illegal.  Brandon threatened to murder the royal family.  They needed to get Duskendaled.  Would the Starks be willing to allow the king to execute Ned?  They should but they would not.  Because Ned was family and it doesn't matter if he was wrong.
4. Jon Snow swore an oath to the Night's Watch.  The membership require the brotherhood to leave behind old grudges in order to do the job they were given.  There is no out clause after the oath.  Jon Snow deserted and had to be brought back by his friends.  This is breaking oaths and he should have known better because he was there when Gared was executed for the same crime.  Jon went because he was thinking of his family.  His loyalty always has been with his family instead of the Night's Watch.  

Rickard Karstark marched south with Robb Stark.  He was a loyal man.  Jaime killed his sons.  Does it not stand to good reason that Rickard loved his boys as much as the Starks loved Ned?  Absolutely.  Didn't Catelyn do something irrational when she took Tyrion?  Didn't this decision cause the deaths of many innocent people in the river lands?  It sure did.  So if the Starks can be forgiven for all of their f*%$ed up decisions, why couldn't Rickard Karstark be forgiven!  I say he should have been forgiven.  Robb Stark was full of hypocrisy.  He would have forgiven another Starks for the worst of f*%$ ups.  

Justice only happens when the judge can conquer his feelings and his biases.  Robb Stark chose not to.  Rickard Karstark didn't get any justice here.  I do not blame his family for walking out on the Starks.  I just hope they can defeat Stannis Baratheon and can keep the Starks from coming back up.  

[Bronn Urgandy]

Rickard deserves no justice, his sons died in battle, Rickard and his sons have killed many sons, brothers, fathers and more in battles themselves, if every man in war got ‘justice’ there would be no men left. All involved knew the risks, knew they could die. He committed one of the worst crimes in the series, his head is more sensible removed from his shoulders. He murdered children, his should have died

 

I may be misremembering but wasn’t his last son a hostage at this time? Seems a good way to get him killed too

 

It becomes more interesting if you put him in the same position as Cat, his sons are captured and he frees the Kingslayer for their safe return, would he still lose his head? My guess is yes

[The Young Maester]

18 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Justice only happens when the judge can conquer his feelings and his biases.  Robb Stark chose not to.  Rickard Karstark didn't get any justice here.  I do not blame his family for walking out on the Starks.  I just hope they can defeat Stannis Baratheon and can keep the Starks from coming back up.  

Except that it is. Murdering two boys under the Kings protection and denouncing that said King is already high treason enough. 

[Finley McLeod]

The Starks sure are fickle when it comes to passing judgement.  Catelyn and Karstark should receive the same punishment.  

[Adam Yozza]

4 hours ago, Fast4Wendy said:

The Starks sure are fickle when it comes to passing judgement.  Catelyn and Karstark should receive the same punishment.  

Why? While Catelyn does commit treason, she doesn't order a portion of Robb's already dwindling army to desert him, she doesn't murder Stark soldiers and she doesn't murder a pair of young boys that, as highborn hostages, are expected to be treated with dignity. And she is repentent. Karstark is not; he mocks Robb in front of his men and  declares that he is "no king of mine". 

If you think it's possible to pardon Karstark and not lose the war on the spot you probably need to learn how to read a room. When Cat is put in front of the Lords she confesses her treason, begs forgiveness and gives her reason, all while appearing very humble and at least somewhat remoreseful. None of those present bar Karstark himself actually blame her and none of them expect Robb to give a more harsh punishment than he does.

On the other hand, Karstark seems unable to even comprehend that what he did was wrong. He blames everyone but himself and is proud of what he's done. And the other bannermen are angry. We never hear even a hint of dissent from any other northern house about what happened to Karstark which shows that they thought the punishment fit the crime in both cases.

[Angel Eyes]

Offhand, I'm honestly not sure how much Rickard cared for Alys, did he honestly want someone like Vargo Hoat for a goodson?

[Shi Qiang]

On 9/4/2019 at 11:08 AM, Anck Su Namun said:

I read a similar topic asking what the appropriate punishment for Catelyn.  She is guilty of letting an important POW go.  I will instead ask for you all to consider pardoning Rickard Karstark.  Here are my reasons for believing he should have been pardoned.

1. Robb Stark called his banners because he loved his father.  It mattered little or not at all if Eddard had actually been guilty of treason.  The Starks were going to rescue him anyway.  The number of people who will die didn't matter.  It was about family.
2. Catelyn Tully Stark arrested Tyrion in order to take him to trial for the attempted murder of her son.  She knew the consequences.  She knew many innocents will die because of this.  It didn't matter because it was about her son.  What did it matter that the children of innocent peasants and lords alike will die as long as she gets satisfaction for her son's injuries.  This is all about family after all.
3. The Starks started a rebellion fifteen years ago in order to protect Ned and Robert from a completely legal request by King Aerys.  Would it matter if Rickard and the Baratheons were plotting against the throne?  That would be wrong and illegal.  Brandon threatened to murder the royal family.  They needed to get Duskendaled.  Would the Starks be willing to allow the king to execute Ned?  They should but they would not.  Because Ned was family and it doesn't matter if he was wrong.
4. Jon Snow swore an oath to the Night's Watch.  The membership require the brotherhood to leave behind old grudges in order to do the job they were given.  There is no out clause after the oath.  Jon Snow deserted and had to be brought back by his friends.  This is breaking oaths and he should have known better because he was there when Gared was executed for the same crime.  Jon went because he was thinking of his family.  His loyalty always has been with his family instead of the Night's Watch.  

Rickard Karstark marched south with Robb Stark.  He was a loyal man.  Jaime killed his sons.  Does it not stand to good reason that Rickard loved his boys as much as the Starks loved Ned?  Absolutely.  Didn't Catelyn do something irrational when she took Tyrion?  Didn't this decision cause the deaths of many innocent people in the river lands?  It sure did.  So if the Starks can be forgiven for all of their f*%$ed up decisions, why couldn't Rickard Karstark be forgiven!  I say he should have been forgiven.  Robb Stark was full of hypocrisy.  He would have forgiven another Starks for the worst of f*%$ ups.  

I am in agreement.  Robb Stark behaved stupidly.  

[Adam Yozza]

8 hours ago, Allardyce said:

I am in agreement.  Robb Stark behaved stupidly.  

Stupidly isn't the same as wrong. Killing Rickard was the right thing, but there was more practical path he could have taken.

[The Young Maester]

Best way to solve this issue is by thinking what would Stannis do. Surely we can trust Stannis's sense of justice.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Best way to solve this issue is by thinking what would Stannis do. Surely we can trust Stannis's sense of justice.

Stannis most definitely would not have pardoned him. 

[Artimicia]

Yes very obviously he is a very interesting character and Robb dramatically over-reacted.

[Arthur Peres]

11 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Stannis most definitely would not have pardoned him. 

Agree, but how would Stannis react to the Catelyn situation ?

He forgave Davos for freeing Edric, would he act the same as Robb?

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

On 9/8/2019 at 5:06 AM, Adam Yozza said:

Why? While Catelyn does commit treason,

Got it in one. Treason is treason.

On 9/8/2019 at 5:06 AM, Adam Yozza said:

None of those present bar Karstark himself actually blame her and none of them expect Robb to give a more harsh punishment than he does.

Hard to say the truth of that, to be honest. Catelyn didn't think so:

 Half of them will want to hang me now. The other half may only turn their eyes away.

Karstark is the first to be openly judgemental, and Robb shows his opinion on the matter:

"A mother's folly?" Lord Karstark rounded on Lord Umber. "I name it treason."

"Enough." For just an instant Robb sounded more like Brandon than his father. "No man calls my lady of Winterfell a traitor in my hearing, Lord Rickard."

After this, who would tell Robb that Catelyn deserves to be punished? Such a thing would be the same as an accusation of treason. Robb had clearly already (somehow) decided that Catelyn didn't commit treason, even though she admits it herself:

"The news must have driven you mad," Ser Desmond broke in, "a madness of grief, a mother's madness, men will understand. You did not know . . ."

"I did," Catelyn said firmly. "I understood what I was doing and knew it was treasonous..."

Before all that, though, Catelyn's entrance was greeted with hushed whispers. Just because Karstark was the only one who was openly displeased, that doesn't mean that everyone else there was okay with what she did or with her lack of punishment. People treat her differently afterwards, too:

Catelyn had grown fond of Lady Maege and her eldest daughter, Dacey; they were more understanding than most in the matter of Jaime Lannister, she had found.

The implication being that most others disapprove of her.

On 9/8/2019 at 5:06 AM, Adam Yozza said:

On the other hand, Karstark seems unable to even comprehend that what he did was wrong.

Indeed? He openly admits that what he did was treason, he just doesn't care:

Lord Karstark spit out a broken tooth. "Yes, Lord Umber, leave me to the king. He means to give me a scolding before he forgives me. That's how he deals with treason, our King in the North." He smiled a wet red smile.

Karstark's treason is a direct response to Catelyn's treason, and to Robb's response to it:

Lord Karstark looked instead at Catelyn. "Tell your mother to look at them," he said. "She slew them, as much as I."

It was an act specifically designed to put Robb in a tenuous position. Robb's choice was a pardon or a punishment. If he pardoned Karstark, that would have been twice he ignored treason; no King could survive that with power intact. If he punished Karstark, it would prove that Robb is a hypocrite, who will only provide justice when it suits him. No good, obviously.

 

Anyway, OP has it the wrong way around. People don't deserve preferential treatment because someone else is getting it. Nobody deserves preferential treatment. Justice is blind, and all that.

12 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Surely we can trust Stannis's sense of justice.

Hah. Hardly.

[Nittanian]

Rickard only sends the Karstark horse from Riverrun in search of Jaime; the Karstark foot is still with Roose at Harrenhal.

Quote

"All the fighting men," Ser Brynden replied. "A few camp followers and serving men were left with their wounded. We questioned as many as we needed, to be certain of the truth. They started leaving at nightfall, stealing off in ones and twos at first, and then in larger groups. The wounded men and servants were told to keep the campfires lit so no one would know they'd gone, but once the rains began it didn't matter."

"Will they re-form, away from Riverrun?" asked Robb.

"No. They've scattered, hunting. Lord Karstark has sworn to give the hand of his maiden daughter to any man highborn or low who brings him the head of the Kingslayer." (ASOS Catelyn III)

Quote

"Lord Rickard defied me. Betrayed me. I have no choice but to condemn him. Gods know what the Karstark foot with Roose Bolton will do when they hear I've executed their liege for a traitor. Bolton must be warned."

"Lord Karstark's heir was at Harrenhal as well," Ser Brynden reminded him. "The eldest son, the one the Lannisters took captive on the Green Fork." (ASOS Catelyn III)

Quote

Bolton gave a soft chuckle. "Harrion Karstark was captive here when we took the castle, did you know? I gave him all the Karhold men still with me and sent him off with Glover. I do hope nothing ill befell him at Duskendale . . . else Alys Karstark would be all that remains of Lord Rickard's progeny." (ASOS Jaime V)

Rickard and his men kill Tully guards, not Stark soldiers (although the Tullys are sworn to Robb, of course). 

Quote

Robb studied the faces of the captives. "It required eight of you to kill two unarmed squires."

Edmure Tully spoke up. "They murdered two of my men as well, to get into the tower. Delp and Elwood."

"It was no murder, ser," said Lord Rickard Karstark, no more discomfited by the ropes about his wrists than by the blood that trickled down his face. "Any man who steps between a father and his vengeance asks for death." (ASOS Jaime III)

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

52 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Agree, but how would Stannis react to the Catelyn situation ?

He forgave Davos for freeing Edric, would he act the same as Robb?

Ahh that's a hard thing to say. I think it would depend on Catelyn's previous service to Stannis. He wouldn't not behead her just because she is his mom I don't think. 

[BlackLightning]

On 9/7/2019 at 5:25 AM, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

I may be misremembering but wasn’t his last son a hostage at this time? Seems a good way to get him killed too

Which makes Karstark's reasoning all the more stupid and irrelevant.

He claims he's trying to avenge the deaths of his sons but he has one more son who is still alive and currently a hostage of the Lannisters.

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Agree, but how would Stannis react to the Catelyn situation ?

He forgave Davos for freeing Edric, would he act the same as Robb?

I don't think Stannis would have killed Catelyn. Regardless of whether she was his mother or not...but I do think that Stannis would have her confined in her quarters. He probably would've made arrangements to get her out of the way quicker than Robb.

 

[kissdbyfire]

On 9/4/2019 at 7:39 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Another Stark hate thread in paper-thin disguise. Beyond boring. 

Yawwwwwnnn.

Please, Old Gods, give us The Winds of Winter, we do need it so even if a small and vocal group of people are gonna hate it so.

 

On 9/6/2019 at 4:28 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Punishment can be either hard or soft but it must be applied without bias.  The same punishment for the crime of treason.  It should not matter who the guilty person is.  The crime should be the same.  All of the actors in this drama are guilty of damaging behavior because they could not set family aside.  If Robb can forgive Cat, which he did, he can forgive Karstark.  Robb's feelings are unimportant.  Karstark got cheated out of justice and therefore, I cannot blame the Karstarks for turning against the Starks.  

Did you think about what you wrote? “The crime should be the same”, and you’ve unwittingly hit the nail on the head there. Catelyn’s crime and Karstark’s crime are absolutely not the same. Cat didn’t kill anyone, let alone anyone under the king’s protection. And Karstark didn’t release prisoners, he had PoW cowardly murdered, and had his ally(ies) murdered in the process. 

You want to hate the Starks? Swell. But try to make cogent arguments, and please, use the text and not your head canon.

 

[The Sunland Lord]

Rickard should have kept his sons at home, or some of them, instead of throwing them ALL on the field-if he cared that much in the first place. Like he didn't know that people in war die? He was involved in three wars that we know of at least.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Rickard Karstark should have received a pardon.  He killed two enemy cadets.  Boys in training to become killers.  They serve and support their knights to help them kill enemies.  

[Adam Yozza]

21 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Rickard Karstark should have received a pardon.  He killed two enemy cadets.  Boys in training to become killers.  They serve and support their knights to help them kill enemies.  

In revenge for his sons...who are trained killers and died fighting their enemies.