Bull**it Jobs

[Liffguard]

Well firstly, I'm not sure we'll ever have an entirely unemployed world. We can get rid of the make-work and still find lots of work that needs to be done. A lot of it isn't being done now because it doesn't create profit for capitalists, so we'll need to change things up so that people can do this work and still have a comfortable life. Even with massive automation, there's huge amounts of real work that can't ever be done by machine, or at least nowhere near as well, primarily in caring jobs or jobs that primarily involve human interaction. 

My vision of an ideal future is one in which people can afford to live without work (by whatever mechanism you choose), so only real work is done rather than bullshit work. And it's also a world in which the work is shared around equitably, so most people probably only need to work 15 hours a week or so.

I'm not advocating a world without work, just a world without pointless work, and a world in which work is only a small part of a person's life, and a world in which people can live comfortably regardless of how much work there is for them to do, and a world in which work is no longer considered a moral good in and of itself rather than what that work can be used to achieve.

[OldGimletEye]

3 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

 This full employment is total crap, someone should run on full unemployment and I will canvass for them like a caveman lawyer on speed.

Then presumably you find AOC revolting because what do you think her government jobs guarantee was about?

Perhaps, you ought to think about voting Republican because they seemingly like high unemployment. It's a lot more fun to lecture people with Ayn Rand when they are standing in an employment line. Plus, they become more appreciative of the high libertarian overlords.

8 hours ago, Martell Spy said:

The gun is poverty, making rent, and being forced out into the streets. I don't really have a problem with trying for full employment. I'm just not very enamored with the system as it is. 

I don't think UBU and AI technology could immediately produce everything we want, no. I just think it's a compliment and could help achieve a 30-hour work week. Some things are more important, like achieving universal healthcare if you are in a backwards country without it. The 30-hour work week also opens slots that are currently taken up for people getting left behind. 

I understand why you're not very happy with the American system of work. I'd argue compared to other countries, its pretty toxic. Certainly, Europeans for instance seem much happier with shorter work hours and the ability, you know, to actually be able to take vacations once awhile. So I don't have much of a quibble with that part of your critique.

But as far as full employment policies go, you know, they were once central to left wing politics.

AOC didn't just invent the government jobs guarantee by herself of course. That policy had been advocated for by those working in the post Keynesian tradition. Many who had experienced the devastation wrought by the Great Depression.

Up until 1992, a policy of full employment was part of the Democratic Party platform, until it was taken out. At the time, it was taken out as part of the "new democrats" strategy of triangualation in attempt to look more moderate. 

Just recently, Spain experienced 25% unemployment, which in the  view of old lefties like me, was devastating and should have never happened. 

UBI will not solve the problem of poverty at this time. At least by itself. The numbers don't work. I think there is the possibility that in the future, AI technology may change things, perhaps even radically. It may change things so much, political economy as we know it, from the industrial revolution until today may become irrelevant. Society maybe able to generate a lot of income without much human labor. When that day comes, I'd support a robust UBI. But, we are not there yet.

At this current time, in order to produce stuff, you need to have labor inputs. Particularly if you want to enough stuff to take care of those unable to work because of disabilities and to provide help to the poor. 

Also, one of the best ways to help the poor is to ensure that there are tight labor markets. Old lefties understood this and spent the better half of the 20th Century fighting for it. They were also locked in bitter battles with conservatives and the Republican Party over these issues during the GFC. And of course the Trumpster running around wanting low interest rates, with conservatives now running around saying they agree, changing their tune, when we couldn't get them to stay that during the Obama years, when it was needed, has many a lefty with the bile at the back of their throats, including me.

 

[TrueMetis]

10 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

Well firstly, I'm not sure we'll ever have an entirely unemployed world. We can get rid of the make-work and still find lots of work that needs to be done. A lot of it isn't being done now because it doesn't create profit for capitalists, so we'll need to change things up so that people can do this work and still have a comfortable life. Even with massive automation, there's huge amounts of real work that can't ever be done by machine, or at least nowhere near as well, primarily in caring jobs or jobs that primarily involve human interaction. 

My vision of an ideal future is one in which people can afford to live without work (by whatever mechanism you choose), so only real work is done rather than bullshit work. And it's also a world in which the work is shared around equitably, so most people probably only need to work 15 hours a week or so.

I'm not advocating a world without work, just a world without pointless work, and a world in which work is only a small part of a person's life, and a world in which people can live comfortably regardless of how much work there is for them to do, and a world in which work is no longer considered a moral good in and of itself rather than what that work can be used to achieve.

Star Trek Socialism baby, Sisko's dad ran a restaurant. Why? Because he wanted to.

[Liffguard]

@OldGimletEye

How do we ensure that the jobs created by a full employment policy are worth having?

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Liffguard said:

@OldGimletEye

How do we ensure that the jobs created by a full employment policy are worth having?

What do you mean by worth having?

I'd define it simply as one that outputs useful stuff (of course subject to labor and safety regulations and so forth). That on the whole makes the economic pie bigger. That definition would mean, I think, trying to eliminate those jobs or professions that engage primarily in rent seeking.

Another thing. Maybe some jobs might be still pretty useless. Still I'd say that society loses a lot more resources when there isn't full employment. Surely, we lose a lot of output during recessions and depressions, which cause a lot of misery.

[OldGimletEye]

14 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

@OldGimletEye

How do we ensure that the jobs created by a full employment policy are worth having?

Let me go a little bit further with this. You'll never get rid of all waste and stupidity because humans aren't super rational machines. Nor does the price system work perfectly.

But, people aren't completely stupid either. They are fairly rational. Not so rational as in the imaginations of some economist. And the price system works reasonably well. Not perfectly well. And some policies can be designed to take care of the fact that people aren't super calculating machines and the price system doesn't working perfectly. 

But, we'll never get rid of all waste and stupidity.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Have to say yes it is a bit naive. It sounds great on paper especially if you’re doing a 9-5 grind, but when it comes down to it it’s really not all that.

Ive had numerous periods in my life where I was unemployed , by choice, and had the freedom to do what I wanted. Sometimes it was fantastic and felt freeing ,  but quite quickly I lost all sense of purpose or reason to get up in the morning. Playing computer games, painting or playing guitar doesn’t really fulfil all your needs for very long.

I now take a lot of benefits out of my work,  it gives me purpose and a goal and a sense of my own achievement. Those are important things.

Having a reason to actually live and feel like you are doing something is so very important, hence why Bullshit jobs are so damaging to our mental health. Replacing them with doing nothing isn’t really much better.

And sure, we could all potentially just end up doing charity work or something or helping people, but let’s be honest, most people will probably just play computer games and stay in bed. 

 

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe society has conditioned you to feel that way? Completing a task does not have to be the same thing as working a soul crushing job, and face it, that's what most of our jobs are even if you kind of like what you do. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

49 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Star Trek Socialism baby, Sisko's dad ran a restaurant. Why? Because he wanted to.

I've been saying this for a while. What is society going to do when money isn't really needed anymore? Will it look like Star Trek or will we fail to evolve? 

[Impmk2]

There is a reasonable body of research to suggest that for most people feeling like a productive member of society is strongly linked to their sense of self-worth and mental health status, and a lot of people only get that through their job.

However the amount of work you need to do (for the majority) is nowhere near 40 hours a week. Study I saw earlier this year reported it was as little as 8hrs / week.

Would be good, (although probably competely unrealistic without a massive cultural change in the western world) if we could eliminate the bullshit jobs and move more towards that.

I'm in a weird job space (medical research) where l swing between "this is completely pointless and we're never getting anywhere with this horseshit research", and "we're doing some of the most important work in the world", dependent on the day of the week. But that comes with the territory. Picking up some teaching which is helping these days.

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

Then presumably you find AOC revolting because what do you think her government jobs guarantee was about?

Perhaps, you ought to think about voting Republican because they seemingly like high unemployment. It's a lot more fun to lecture people with Ayn Rand when they are standing in an employment line. Plus, they become more appreciative of the high libertarian overlords.

I understand why you're not very happy with the American system of work. I'd argue compared to other countries, its pretty toxic. Certainly, Europeans for instance seem much happier with shorter work hours and the ability, you know, to actually be able to take vacations once awhile. So I don't have much of a quibble with that part of your critique.

But as far as full employment policies go, you know, they were once central to left wing politics.

AOC didn't just invent the government jobs guarantee by herself of course. That policy had been advocated for by those working in the post Keynesian tradition. Many who had experienced the devastation wrought by the Great Depression.

Up until 1992, a policy of full employment was part of the Democratic Party platform, until it was taken out. At the time, it was taken out as part of the "new democrats" strategy of triangualation in attempt to look more moderate. 

Just recently, Spain experienced 25% unemployment, which in the  view of old lefties like me, was devastating and should have never happened. .

 

Hey, sorry dude, little perspective: short term love what you're saying.  Just pointing out that long term we need to fundamentally change the way we think about work.  Wasn't arguing with you.  My post was tongue in cheek re: contemporary policy, but I think long term it helps to have a goal too.  And that is total unemployment.

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Playing computer games, painting or playing guitar doesn’t really fulfil all your needs for very long.

And yet there are quite a few people whose main activity it is to play games, paint, or play music, so obviously it's all a question of perspective.

It is true that in our societies many of us struggle to find a purpose outside their job. However, what you describe is not an immutable state of things, but a reflection of the current way we have of ascribing value to individuals, which many find difficult to escape.
That things are this way today is hardly a good argument against change. If anything, it shows what the deeper problem is.

I certainly do not doubt that you felt aimless -and a bit miserable- without a job. I highly doubt that this aimlessness would have remained as long had society been telling you that you really didn't need to find one anymore. If having a job was no longer a requirement you would have adapted by endeavoring to find a different purpose in life. And you would have found it, like millions of humans do every year when they are no longer able or required to have a job.

The mistake you make, imho, is to confuse having a job and working. It is true that humans need some form of fulfilling activity, which we generally think of as "work." It is absolutely not true that humans need a job, as in "a salaried activity to pay the bills." When humans no longer need a job, they simply find their own work. It may be rather difficult to be one's own master and find on one's own what kind of activity will be fulfilling, but that is precisely the challenge that future generations will -hopefully- soon have to raise up to.

I'm tempted to err on the metaphysical side and say that there is no universal answer to seeking a purpose in life because human life seems to have little absolute purpose besides its own perpetuation. Contributing to this perpetuation is enough for the majority of humans (and some jobs involve such a contribution of course). For those of us blessed by a life in a developed society in which survival and perpetuation are hardly an issue, it can be challenging to find other reasons to "get up in the morning." And if your job is not one that somehow contributes to the perpetuation of human life, work may not make you feel useful anyway - that is no doubt what "bullshit jobs" are. Abolishing them might be harder on some than others -for a time- but to claim that they are necessary to prevent many people from feeling aimless is basically saying that they are not able to seek and find fulfillment on their own.
What a grim view of life and humanity that is!

[Larry of the Lawn]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Have to say yes it is a bit naive. It sounds great on paper especially if you’re doing a 9-5 grind, but when it comes down to it it’s really not all that.

Ive had numerous periods in my life where I was unemployed , by choice, and had the freedom to do what I wanted. Sometimes it was fantastic and felt freeing ,  but quite quickly I lost all sense of purpose or reason to get up in the morning. Playing computer games, painting or playing guitar doesn’t really fulfil all your needs for very long.

I now take a lot of benefits out of my work,  it gives me purpose and a goal and a sense of my own achievement. Those are important things.

Having a reason to actually live and feel like you are doing something is so very important, hence why Bullshit jobs are so damaging to our mental health. Replacing them with doing nothing isn’t really much better.

And sure, we could all potentially just end up doing charity work or something or helping people, but let’s be honest, most people will probably just play computer games and stay in bed. 

 

This is, to me personally, absolutely fucking insane.  I am self-employed, and basically slave away 9-11.5 months of the year doing everything I possibly can to do the things I actually enjoy and care about instead of the thing that makes me money to finance the important shit.  Important shit for me is walking with my dog, climbing avalanche slides, paddling, reading, and smoking a lot of weed.  

The idea that somehow it's more satisfying to work at whatever job you can get than pursue your dreams and passions is alien to me.  It's that creepy Protestant work ethic thing that everyone jacks off to because money.  Fuck that romanticization of subjugation.  

The world is better off with a bunch of people just playing guitar and painting, opposed to nickle and diming the 95% of us into living pay check to pay check working for the man.  

 

[Martell Spy]

Yeah, I don't think Jean-Luc PIcard needs some capitalist boss to tell him to grow some grapes.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Interested to know what people would be doing with their lives in this unemployed world? 

The answer i often hear is ‘creating great art’ but i find that quite unlikely. 

Almost certainly we’ll see an even bigger increase in people feeling aimless and unfulfilled , even more then they do with all these bullshit jobs. 

Spend time with my kids, for one! Working 12 hour days sometimes 6 days a week, plus commute through rush-hour traffic, I miss every single school event of theirs. 

Get some fresh air. Catch up on about 6 years of sleep debt because my job gives me anxiety, which gives me insomnia. Read through my entire "To Read" pile, and then find more stuff to read. Learn to play the guitar and piano. 

Finally sit down and write out this idea for a story that's been pounding around inside my brain like some kind of psychic migraine the past few years. Will it be great art? Probably not. Will it be decent? Maybe. 

I just don't understand the type of people who can't figure out what they'd want to do if they didn't have to work and still have food, shelter, clothing, education, etc., all provided. 

I can just imagine such a world, and I imagine all the Type-As having to see shrinks and pop benzos because it's stressing them the fuck out that they can't tell anyone what to do.

ETA: Actually, screw all that up above. I'd learn how to build my own house from the ground up. During my "between college" years, I worked in residential construction for a while: roofing, framing, remodels, etc. The pay was not great, but it was more than enough for me at the time. It was also hot, dirty, sweaty, back-breaking labor. 

One of the years I worked construction was the same year that the May 3, 1999, tornado ripped through Moore, OK. And that summer was hot as hell, and the money was good too, plus just volunteering to help people out, because so much needed to be done. And I remember on more than one occasion having to manually dig a footing around the perimeter for a scheduled foundation pour that couldn't be moved, because the contractor hadn't been able to rent any equipment because it'd all been rented out and the company equipment was out at other sites, and this was in Oklahoma August 110 degree heat. And I went home tired as fuck every day, but every second of that job was fulfilling to me, and it was because I felt useful, I could see the product of my labor, and most importantly, I think, I didn't get bored of it precisely because it was a small outfit and he did the build from the ground up (except for the plumbing and wiring), so I was getting to experience the whole process instead of just being shoved into one role and forced to keep at that same role forever. I've never felt as fulfilled in my entire "career" working life as I felt building houses.

[ThinkerX]

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Have to say yes it is a bit naive. It sounds great on paper especially if you’re doing a 9-5 grind, but when it comes down to it it’s really not all that.

Ive had numerous periods in my life where I was unemployed , by choice, and had the freedom to do what I wanted. Sometimes it was fantastic and felt freeing ,  but quite quickly I lost all sense of purpose or reason to get up in the morning. Playing computer games, painting or playing guitar doesn’t really fulfil all your needs for very long.

I now take a lot of benefits out of my work,  it gives me purpose and a goal and a sense of my own achievement. Those are important things.

Having a reason to actually live and feel like you are doing something is so very important, hence why Bullshit jobs are so damaging to our mental health. Replacing them with doing nothing isn’t really much better.

And sure, we could all potentially just end up doing charity work or something or helping people, but let’s be honest, most people will probably just play computer games and stay in bed. 

 

Pretty much my attitude and experience.  

And my current and past jobs are generally beneficial to society.  

[OldGimletEye]

7 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Hey, sorry dude, little perspective: short term love what you're saying.  Just pointing out that long term we need to fundamentally change the way we think about work.  Wasn't arguing with you.  My post was tongue in cheek re: contemporary policy, but I think long term it helps to have a goal too.  And that is total unemployment.

I'm middle aged. Towards the end of my life, in the next 3 to 4 decades, I think it very possible that significant amounts of labor could be replaced by AI tech.

Those a couple decades younger than me, might see almost all of it replaced by AI within their lifetimes.

Of course, AI technology could turn out very well or very badly. If it turns out well, people could be freed from having to do the most dangerous and shitty types of work with enough output to provide a reasonable comfortable living for everyone. It could turn out very badly if only a relatively small set of people control AI technology and the wealth it could generate. It will be interesting to see how the politics of this plays out. Though I don't think I'll be around to see it. For those a few decades younger than me, this will likely become a big issue in my opinion.

Of course this all assumes we haven't fried the planet to a crisp.

[Mosi Mynn]

On 9/8/2019 at 9:12 PM, ThinkerX said:

That said, given the utterly wretched feeling and catastrophic sense of worthlessness that comes with unemployment/idleness, even a BS job would beat collecting an unemployment check or the 'universal basic income' thing.

This is the crux of it for me.

No doubt there are some utterly useless jobs that would not be missed if they disappeared.  But in our society people need to earn a living.  And that sustains society through taxes, buying stuff, creating a need for services and leisure industries, and just general self-worth.

If all the BS jobs are cut, how do people and society survive?  Is there enough non-BS work to go around?

 

Ha - I stopped reading the thread to reply, and I see that this has been discussed extensively since 

[Liffguard]

12 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

If all the BS jobs are cut, how do people and society survive?  Is there enough non-BS work to go around?

Sure there is, if we move away from the idea of a 40 hour (or more) work week. We could all spend way less time working, and also spend that time on work that matters.

[BigFatCoward]

i'm all for reducing my working hours, but can I do one week of full time, with one week off?  Job sharing with someone else would be great. 

Do I still have enough money for holidays in this brave new world?  Because if not I would rather work full time, the reason I go to work is to be able to afford to go nice places when i'm not at work.

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, BigFatCoward said:

i'm all for reducing my working hours, but can I do one week of full time, with one week off?  Job sharing with someone else would be great. 

Do I still have enough money for holidays in this brave new world?  Because if not I would rather work full time, the reason I go to work is to be able to afford to go nice places when i'm not at work.

What kind of answer do you want?

Ideally, thanks to technology we'd all have the option of working when and how we want. Each person would "owe" a number of hours or tasks to society and would choose how to do them. If we looked at what is actually needed to make society run I'm sure we'd soon all be working less than 15h/week.

Realistically that's not going to happen because neo-liberalism. Instead unemployment is going to keep rising, so people will fight to get bullshit jobs "working" 40+ hours a week for a miserable salary that barely allows them to get by. But unemployed people will be even worse off (struggling to survive I reckon, since every single public service will have been privatized) so no one will dream of complaining. And with all the dirty climate refugees at the door  wall coming to steal our jobs you'd better learn to be happy with what you have, am'i'right?

The "brave new world" is the one we're currently building for our children. It's so terrible and stupid that people are literally developing mild forms of mental illnesses because of it (check: https://www.apa.org/images/mental-health-climate_tcm7-215704.pdf ).