DCEU: Killer Clowns from Gotham City

[red snow]

15 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I feel like I missed a meeting on why everyone cares about this Snyder cut. Why exactly do we think it’ll be significantly better?

Can it be worse? I think it will be interesting just to see what the original version may have looked like. If it's an extension of BvS it will be an entirely different kind of terrible from the whedon version

[Jaxom 1974]

18 hours ago, hauberk said:

QFT.  I'll take the mess that was BVS and Suicide Squad, but there was absolutely nothing about this Joker character design that spoke to me and a whole lot that screamed "Pass!"  As much as I like what Margo Robbie has done with Harley Quinn, I have the same feeling about her character design and I harbor some substantial resentment for the way it has influenced the comics.  

That's a pretty cool theory, but head cannon for me would make it Jason and not Tim - Tim's too smart to get taken/transformed.  

The youtuber Little Jax watches sometimes was using ideas culled from Batman Beyond: The Return of the Joker to work in some of the theory...at least to show that some writers out there think Tim was capable of being brain washed...

[JGP]

8 hours ago, red snow said:

Can it be worse? I think it will be interesting just to see what the original version may have looked like. If it's an extension of BvS it will be an entirely different kind of terrible from the whedon version

Agreed. It might also give a weathervane type indication insofar as the DC exec meddling. Really hard to say. I wonder if there's an original Snyder version script [pre-Whedon] that's out there in the aether somewhere. Might do some googling later.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

16 hours ago, karaddin said:

Bit of a late reply here so apologies in advance. I'm not entirely following your criticism here - are you saying its a plot hole or bad writing? I can certainly see why failing to page her in Avengers 1 can be seen as a plot hole and this criticism seemed to be a progression from that one so I thought you're saying this is also a plot hole, but this is the same movie that Fury ultimately pages her at the end of so it can't possibly be a Captain Marvel retrospective plot hole. If I'm misunderstanding and you're simply saying its bad writing then that's a different story and the criticism does make sense irrespective of whether I agree with it.

I think the point i was making was that there were some very generous assumptions to explain away the beginning of Avengers 1. Namely that Fury did page Cap. Marvel but she couldn't arrive in time or something. But that being the case, why does Fury wait until the end of A:IW to thumb the pager? Is he completely unaware of the events of the film?

17 hours ago, karaddin said:

Surely a protest against workplace conditions doesn't belong in the same breath as an abusive coworker justifying the abuse as "part of the artistic process". The rest of the diva behaviour may apply, I just objected to that particular one as it falls under industrial relations. Leto's behaviour as Joker absolutely qualifies as sexual harassment pushing into assault, his coworkers shouldn't have to deal with someone behaving like that. So again I'm coming at it from the industrial relations angle rather than anything about the art.

A cup of piss to the face is pretty strong. The whole story is recounted in Easy Riders Raging bulls.  I won't recount it here, partly because some of it is probably embellished (it's that weird).  Then again, they were doing mountains of drugs back then so who knows. Needless to say, the was despised by the crew at the end of that film. 

Please explain " sexual harassment pushing into assault"

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

3 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Agreed. It might also give a weathervane type indication insofar as the DC exec meddling. Really hard to say. I wonder if there's an original Snyder version script [pre-Whedon] that's out there in the aether somewhere. Might do some googling later.

That's going to tough.

Snyder described the original "hard idea" (the script that was completed before BvS was released) that was never shot.  This was re-written after BvS was received poorly and the compromised version was shot with principal photography completed at the end of 2016. The only thing he wanted to shoot that he didn't was a scene with Harry Lennix and Amy Adams.  Then 4 months of editing and Snyder was off the project.

This months shooting might be the return to the "hard idea".

[red snow]

On 10/23/2020 at 5:09 PM, JEORDHl said:

Agreed. It might also give a weathervane type indication insofar as the DC exec meddling. Really hard to say. I wonder if there's an original Snyder version script [pre-Whedon] that's out there in the aether somewhere. Might do some googling later.

Even if awful it'll provide a great insight into film making from directors to committee interfering. I hope the show comes with such aftershow commentaries. I'd also like to hear whedon's take on it all as I think he's unfairly blamed for the film as well.

In an ideal world we'd also get to see the different versions of "rogue one" and "Han solo" (where the meddling appears to have worked) to see what they did right. Those two will only be script level observations though but maybe some rough cuts of the tone they were going for would be informative

[red snow]

On 10/23/2020 at 4:49 PM, Jaxom 1974 said:

The youtuber Little Jax watches sometimes was using ideas culled from Batman Beyond: The Return of the Joker to work in some of the theory...at least to show that some writers out there think Tim was capable of being brain washed...

The current "three jokers" comic also has the potential of turning Jason Todd into a joker. It's a bit weird what they are doing with the joker in the comics at the moment though and DC continuity is up in the air given the recent change in management

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

plonk.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sherazfarooqi/2020/10/29/interview-ray-fisher-talks-toxic-justice-league-set-warnermedia-investigation-and-erasing-characters-of-color/#33ea583d2518

[Heartofice]

13 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

plonk.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sherazfarooqi/2020/10/29/interview-ray-fisher-talks-toxic-justice-league-set-warnermedia-investigation-and-erasing-characters-of-color/#33ea583d2518

I wonder if everything at WB is such a poisonous clusterfuck? It just sounds like everyone in charge there is either the worst type of person on the planet or they have created a culture that brings out the worst in people.

Having said that, there does appear to be a bit of a Boyega situation going on here, where non white characters were cut from the movie or had reduced screen time and there is a jump to conclusions as to why that happened. That not denying there appears to have been some racist stuff said, but whether the two things are connected is not clear.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

49 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I wonder if everything at WB is such a poisonous clusterfuck? It just sounds like everyone in charge there is either the worst type of person on the planet or they have created a culture that brings out the worst in people.

Having said that, there does appear to be a bit of a Boyega situation going on here, where non white characters were cut from the movie or had reduced screen time and there is a jump to conclusions as to why that happened. That not denying there appears to have been some racist stuff said, but whether the two things are connected is not clear.

Yeah, there are two issues going on here.  The first involves the demand for a third party investigation into the goings-on post Snyder's departure.  This apparently involves more than just Fisher and may involve illegality.  People have pointed out that if Johns did threaten Ray's career for raising issues that could constitute workplace retaliation, which is illegal in California.  I'm not qualified to judge.

The other is what Ray discusses in the Forbes article.  Racial motivation or no, the cast of that film definitely got whiter in the reshoots.  With the exception of Ray Porter (who plays a CGI alien), Willem Dafoe, and Sam Benjamin, the characters who's roles were reduced or removed were people of color (General Swanwick, Silas Stone, Victor Stone, Mrs. Stone, Iris West, Ryan Choi, possibly Jon Stewart).  The characters that were added were entirely caucasian (definitely the Russian family and the burglar in the second prologue. Possibly the old lady who claimed aliens abducted her husband and the guy who's face Barry Allen draws on when he visits his father in prison). I guess we'll find out next year.

I have no opinion on the rationale. That's for the investigation. I'm also not critical of representation in film. I'm all for it. But it's curious to me that a contingent of "woke" media, that's normally hyper-sensitive to this sort of thing, has barely covered this. 

[red snow]

I think it's definitely worth a full investigation. I think Ray should have possibly considered not naming names until the investigation but it sounds as if he's had to do that to get some traction.

It's also another great example of why casting white superheroes with non white actors is valid. All the characters dropped are second tier characters compared to batman, wonder woman, superman, aquaman and flash. I can understand why cyborg would be most likely to be cut but the optics are bad.

 

[sifth]

I'm confused, this guy made it out as if Joss Whedon did something to him personally, but now he's upset that Joss Whedon changed the color of "another actors skin" in post production. So which is it, because this guy keeps changing his story and Ray Fisher didn't even have the decency of telling us the name of the actor he changed. Joe Morton and Ray Fisher are the only black actors I remember being in the film, but it has been a while since I saw the movie; so is this just a bit part or something?

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

I'm confused, this guy made it out as if Joss Whedon did something to him personally, but now he's upset that Joss Whedon changed the color of "another actors skin" in post production. So which is it, because this guy keeps changing his story and Ray Fisher didn't even have the decency of telling us the name of the actor he changed. Joe Morton and Ray Fisher are the only black actors I remember being in the film, but it has been a while since I saw the movie; so is this just a bit part or something?

Quote

“These things affected many people across various departments. Warner Bros. Pictures has tried to make it seem as if these issues are mine and mine alone,” Fisher said. “I’ve brought them a number of witnesses that have been avoided and in some cases ghosted during the investigation process. Warner Bros. knows full well my claims are credible. They’re just scrambling.”

Fisher has never claimed these issues effected him alone.  Mamoa backs him up.

Also, I fail to see how not name dropping the actor in the forbes article equates to a lack of decency.  Maybe the actor didn't feel comfortable being mentioned in the article.  Maybe Ray felt it was inappropriate to out this person in print without their permission.  

[sifth]

36 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Fisher has never claimed these issues effected him alone.  Mamoa backs him up.

Also, I fail to see how not name dropping the actor in the forbes article equates to a lack of decency.  Maybe the actor didn't feel comfortable being mentioned in the article.  Maybe Ray felt it was inappropriate to out this person in print without their permission.  

I still think he's lying. To each his own, but this still seems very similar to Jussie Smollett's false claims to me. He's only telling you bread crumbs, but never the whole story. I just want to know the full story and from there I'll have a clear picture on how I feel. Ray just saying he second hand heard that Josh Whedon did this bad thing, isn't exactly selling me on this story.

[Jace, Extat]

Well when you watch the Justice League there's literally no arguing that Joss Whedon did anything but attempt to lighten everything in the movie. The plot, the dialogue, the sets, the damn costumes... Now the question is did he go too far? Justice is balance. Batman said that.

 

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I still think he's lying. To each his own, but this still seems very similar to Jussie Smollett's false claims to me. He's only telling you bread crumbs, but never the whole story.

 

I can't say if Ray Fisher is telling the truth but to compare this to Jussie Smollett is a massive fucking reach and a completely pointless one. There are no similarities between the two whatsoever, starting right from the fact that Smollett alledged a specific incident with unknown attackers whereas Fisher is alleging a broader culture of racism and abuse with specific people named. Pretty much the only thing connecting the two in any way at all is that they're both black actors.

 

[sifth]

11 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

I can't say if Ray Fisher is telling the truth but to compare this to Jussie Smollett is a massive fucking reach and a completely pointless one. There are no similarities between the two whatsoever, starting right from the fact that Smollett alledged a specific incident with unknown attackers whereas Fisher is alleging a broader culture of racism and abuse with specific people named. Pretty much the only thing connecting the two in any way at all is that they're both black actors.

 

Just the best example I could think of, when comparing someone who only gave vague details about "something bad" happening, without ever giving a clear picture on what exactly happened.

[polishgenius]

Smollett gave a very specific description, that was half the problem.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

I still think he's lying. To each his own, but this still seems very similar to Jussie Smollett's false claims to me. He's only telling you bread crumbs, but never the whole story. I just want to know the full story and from there I'll have a clear picture on how I feel. Ray just saying he second hand heard that Josh Whedon did this bad thing, isn't exactly selling me on this story.

Then Mamoa is lying too. Also, Mamoa will in fact be playing Frosty the Snowman in a Johns/Berg production.  Again, this isn't just about Ray Fisher.

Fisher is putting himself out there in a way that will likely do serious damage to his career. He's also not simply alleging "he heard something second hand about Joss". Read the article again.  He's demanding an investigation and it involves more than just Whedon.  You don't do that unless you have receipts.

Fisher as much as dared Whedon, Johns, etc to sue him for libel during his Justice Con appearance. That was two months ago. Of course, a libel suit would result in a formal (public) investigation, which is exactly what Fisher has been demanding this whole time.

37 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I can't say if Ray Fisher is telling the truth but to compare this to Jussie Smollett is a massive fucking reach and a completely pointless one. There are no similarities between the two whatsoever, starting right from the fact that Smollett alledged a specific incident with unknown attackers whereas Fisher is alleging a broader culture of racism and abuse with specific people named. Pretty much the only thing connecting the two in any way at all is that they're both black actors.

Yeah, this.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

9 hours ago, red snow said:

It's also another great example of why casting white superheroes with non white actors is valid. All the characters dropped are second tier characters compared to batman, wonder woman, superman, aquaman and flash. I can understand why cyborg would be most likely to be cut but the optics are bad.

 

Cyborg's part wasn't just reduced, he was supposedly the the center of the film.

The most extreme example of this is Adrien Brody in the thin red line.  He shot in Australia for six months and did a whole press thing with a GQ article and red carpet interviews and all that.  He believed he was the star of the film.  He wasn't aware that Malik likes to shoot a shitload of footage and find the film in the edit. Where he ends up is often a lot different from where he starts. Brody didn't know until he saw the film at the premiere.  Ouch.

I remember when Man Of Steel news was coming out and there were a few ripples surrounding the casting of Lawrence Fishburne as Perry White and gender swapping Jenny Olson.  There is a rationale beyond just wanting better representation.  Those characters first appeared in the early 1940's. At a time when office environments across the United States would have been almost overwhelmingly male and entirely white.  If you're retelling that story in a contemporary context, of course you're going to have more diversity.  That's just reality.