DCEU: Killer Clowns from Gotham City

[JGP]

7 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I think what is annoying some people is that the movie doesn’t really have very much to say politically and it’s mostly pretty ambiguous in its themes. Joker even states at one point that he doesn’t care about politics. So instead there is a massive gulf for people to insert their own crappy politics onto the movie and make it about what they want to see.

 

Breaking: In the 21st century, some rando discovers 'art' 

The defensiveness rallying around this film is interesting.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

 

Breaking: In the 21st century, some rando discovers 'art' 

The defensiveness rallying around this film is interesting.

You're missing the point.

Who is 'rallying around the film?' 

[JGP]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

You're missing the point.

Please, I'm all ears. 

 

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Who is 'rallying around the film?' 

 

In the light of how easily soft little boys get triggered into misogyny, violence, and mass murder for their fifteen minutes of 'look at me, feel my pain,' I'd say those rallying are everyone bent by the concern of validating the actions of a historically psychopathic and viciously murderous character. 

[Heartofice]

15 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

In the light of how easily soft little boys get triggered into misogyny, violence, and mass murder for their fifteen minutes of 'look at me, feel my pain,' I'd say those rallying are everyone bent by the concern of validating the actions of a historically psychopathic and viciously murderous character. 

I'm not sure what you are actually suggesting here? That this movie is inspiring violence?

The point being that there are tons of media think pieces and reviews going around trying to associate this movie with any number of societal problems and issues. Yet anyone watching the movie would probably have a hard time seeing any of those connections, because they mostly aren't there. You would probably know that, but you seem to have made some sort of heroic moral stand against seeing the movie, very brave of you. 

[JGP]

lol 

[polishgenius]

10 hours ago, Heartofice said:

What is he comparing it to though?

King of Comedy, Taxi Driver, Fight Club.

Disaffected-loner-turning-to-darkness movies are hardly a new and inspired genre, there's plenty for it to be a pale imitation of.

[Heartofice]

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

King of Comedy, Taxi Driver, Fight Club.

Disaffected-loner-turning-to-darkness movies are hardly a new and inspired genre, there's plenty for it to be a pale imitation of.

Yeah those are much better movies that this was definitely attempting to copy / rip off 

[Relic]

On 10/10/2019 at 7:05 AM, The Great Unwashed said:

The incel "controversy" is absolute bullshit. Any violence for which AF/Joker is celebrated in the context of the movie is perpetrated exclusively against rich, white males. This movie is concerned almost to a fault with class warfare, which I'm pretty sure isn't high on the incel concerns list. Also, incels don't need a fucking mainstream comic book movie to encourage them to perpetrate violence; they have plenty of other material to incite them.

I don't know, it's actually totally unexplained what he did to his love interest and her daughter after being asked to leave. 

[red snow]

4 minutes ago, Relic said:

I don't know, it's actually totally unexplained what he did to his love interest and her daughter after being asked to leave. 

I think that was deliberately left ambiguous because if he had killed them then it would be very incel behaviour - killing someone for not living up to your fantasy of a supporting partner.

I tend to think he killed her but it's really tricky when not knowing which interactions were real. I suspect she was friendly in the elevator but I'm on the fence with her telling him to stop following her as the resolution of that conversation seemed like a fantasy to me. Given that he only seemed to spare one person for being nice makes it hard to decide how he dealt with his neighbour.

All that said, i still feel the incel stuff is being projected onto the film rather than the film deliberately (or unwittingly) emulating it. The final act has Joker quite specifically blaming the lack of medical care and the social injustice of Gotham city. Yes, some incel motives/perceived injustices could fold into that but it's casting a much wider net with what he states is the problem. It would have been nice to see some more regarding the angry clown mobs though as that could have shed more light on what the reaction against the system involved. Were they all angry white working class men? Were there people whose lives (or those of loved ones) were ruined due to cuts in social and medical care? Or people angry at how the city treat people like shit (if Joker's beating and the potential subway rape were indicative of Gotham norms).

I guess all this pondering does back up some criticism about the film being quite shallow or too restricted to Arthur's POV. The inclusion of the clown movement does call for a little bit more from that aspect of the world created.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Relic said:

I don't know, it's actually totally unexplained what he did to his love interest and her daughter after being asked to leave. 

I personally think that he didn't kill them. Every murder he commits in the movie is unambiguous, and the movie indicates that killing brings him a sort of relief, as he is always portrayed as dancing within a few scenes after murdering someone.

However, after leaving Sophie's apartment, he's shown in complete agony in his own apartment. That leads me to believe that he didn't kill either her or her daughter.

But even if he did kill them, I still don't think that negates my original point, which is that this movie was constructed as a meditation on the intersection between class and mental illness. How well that theme is pulled off is debatable, but I didn't see anything in it that glorifies violence in any way. 

I think much of the backlash against Joker is that people are no longer comfortable with complex and ambiguous characters. I don't see any reason why we can't feel empathy for AF's plight while also condemning his actions.

[JGP]

3 hours ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I think much of the backlash against Joker is that people are no longer comfortable with complex and ambiguous characters. I don't see any reason why we can't feel empathy for AF's plight while also condemning his actions.

I agree with this, but it's also the rub.

Backlash may be coming from some reviewers, but it's born from the general fears of the public at large. My brother and I have done more than text about it, after all, and while he felt it was one of Phoenix's best performances he shares my misgivings. My criticism is less about what Philips [Phillips?] was trying to do with the actual movie-- and rather more about considering what some entitled, angry little white dude might think while watching AF more or less take his shit out on people. I don't think I'd even blame the movie per se, if it actually inspired one of them to violence. But...

But.

[Heartofice]

21 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

I agree with this, but it's also the rub.

Backlash may be coming from some reviewers, but it's born from the general fears of the public at large. My brother and I have done more than text about it, after all, and while he felt it was one of Phoenix's best performances he shares my misgivings. My criticism is less about what Philips [Phillips?] was trying to do with the actual movie-- and rather more about considering what some entitled, angry little white dude might think while watching AF more or less take his shit out on people. I don't think I'd even blame the movie per se, if it actually inspired one of them to violence. But...

But.

Why would the movie inspire him to violence? Why this movie and not some other movie?  What about an actually violent movie such as John Wick?

Bird of Prey was trailered before Joker, would that inspire women to go out and kill men?

You didn’t bother to clarify your point on this previously so I’m assuming you see some connection between movies and violence 

[JGP]

Don't even bother with the women angle, dude. They're not a problem to society.

---

I don't know if I see a connection between films so much as a correlation between the radicalization of trademark angry little white supremacist and/or self professed incel misogynist types. It's them that we need to get a handle on.

If they can be triggered by excessive Fox or Ben Shapiro viewing, etc etc, and they can, why can't they likewise be triggered by a movie that attempts to validate a Joker type murderer? 

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

why can't they likewise be triggered by a movie that attempts to validate a Joker type murderer? 

So you’re saying that movies could radicalise people? What’s the solution to this problem? Should we ban them?

[JGP]

I don't know if there is a solution. 

I'd certainly say we, as a society, should be more thoughtful however. It's unfortunate that we have to consider their feelings, but it's likely been the lack of concern that's led to their problematic identifications. 

I'm curious about the dichotomy between a movie like, say, The Hunt getting shelved, yet Joker going through despite executive misgivings.  

[Conflicting Thought]

6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

So you’re saying that movies could radicalise people? What’s the solution to this problem? Should we ban them?

Maybe, you know, express criticism of certain aspects of these movies?, maybe do a bit of critical thinking?

[Heartofice]

27 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Maybe, you know, express criticism of certain aspects of these movies?, maybe do a bit of critical thinking?

Sounds good, but while you are expressing criticism some white kid could have seen some guy in face paint killing someone and by that point it’s too late.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

Maybe, you know, express criticism of certain aspects of these movies?, maybe do a bit of critical thinking?

But, if alienated loners are identifying with any particular thing in pop culture, isn't the obvious solution to change the culture that creates these alienated loners and gives them the tools to carry out mass violence, rather than banning the particular IP in question? Especially since the disaffected loner will just find another thing to inspire them?

Just taking a look at Taxi Driver, which Joker borrowed heavily from, shows a movie that is far likelier to inspire incels and right-wingers. This is because of both its graphic violence, the hagiography experienced by the lead character after his actions, and the overt racism, homophobia and misogyny expressed by its characters. I just don't buy the argument that Joker is somehow the tipping point inspiring dozens of mass shooters, or that the outrage is anything more than the crusades against video games and movies that have been raging for decades.

[JGP]

While not much, I'm a little surprised criticism of Joker along these lines really bothers anyone. Kind of fascinating that it's predominantly men taking umbrage, though. 

[Jace, Extat]

5 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

While not much, I'm a little surprised criticism of Joker along these lines really bothers anyone. Kind of fascinating that it's predominantly men taking umbrage, though. 

Annoys the shit outta me, and I didn't even see the film because I thought it looked pointless. Fucking censorship, give me a goddamn break dude. It may be from the director of the fucking Hangover films but at least this looked like a fumbling, bumbling, assclown-esque attempt at artistic expression. I'll defend the film on that merit alone.

I would green light a thousand Joker movies before condoning the sterilization of art. It is not society's job to contort itself into knots to avoid the whims of the deranged.