What exactly is the point of Quentyn?

[Leonardo]

Not important?

 

He offered Daenerys westeros and a westerosi army to conquer it with. If she had gone with him, she'd have won, pure and simple. When she got there, the Lannister Tyrell alliance is dead, stormlands are ripe for conquering, and she has dragons. nuff said. Spurning him will be the single biggest mistake she's ever made.

[Serddar]

I wouldn't say his POV is unimportant. We see Dornish perspective in all of this, we see the offer of Dornish support through his eyes, and we see why and how it all comes crashing down. Later on, when it comes back to bite Dany, we'll have a much clearer picture.  

Also, dragons will have a part to play in the battle that's coming, and seeing through POV why and how they came to be released is an important aspect of it all. 
 

[The Bard of Banefort]

To turn Dorne against Daenerys once his friends return and tell Doran how Dany spurned him.

Also, Dany definitely did laugh at Quentyn. We know this because we saw it happen through her POV. Barristan is trying to gaslight the audience lol.

[C.T. Phipps]

Quentyn's interest to me is less of his role in the story in-universe and the idea that he's an enormous p***take at stereotypical fantasy heroes. I think George R.R. Martin got a little wrapped up in his universe's epic alternate history and wanted to take a break by writing another deconstruction that underlines so much of Westeros. There's a reason it's considered to be the WATCHMEN of the fantasy genre and so subversive.

Quentyn is a somewhat nerdy and bookish protagonist that is shy around girls but set off to marry the beautiful awesome special princess so he can save the world/conquer the kingdom. He's a basic Rand al'Thor figure before said guy goes utterly insane. We've been given the set up for the great master plan of the Martells for their revenge.

And Quetyn utterly **** it up.

He basically shows up at Daenerys' court and mubbles his way through handing over the marriage offer and she's already getting married to stabilize her foreign kingdom. Daenerys weirdly doesn't dismiss Quentyn and basically says, "We'll probably get married later" which is a weird thing to do but shows just how removed from Westerosi mores she is. Quentyn, however, feels like a failure and gets himself killed after trying to do some epic Hogwarts, "I am the blood of the targaryens, I shall tame this dragon!"

It is an utter embarrassment and a sad life of a boy hero cut short.

That's who Quentyn was to me: the guy who wandered in from a more escapist story. Luke Skywalker getting gunned down in the Death Star detention level and Obi Wan being left with, "Well, crap, now what?"

[Tucu]

34 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Quentyn's interest to me is less of his role in the story in-universe and the idea that he's an enormous p***take at stereotypical fantasy heroes. I think George R.R. Martin got a little wrapped up in his universe's epic alternate history and wanted to take a break by writing another deconstruction that underlines so much of Westeros. There's a reason it's considered to be the WATCHMEN of the fantasy genre and so subversive.

Quentyn is a somewhat nerdy and bookish protagonist that is shy around girls but set off to marry the beautiful awesome special princess so he can save the world/conquer the kingdom. He's a basic Rand al'Thor figure before said guy goes utterly insane. We've been given the set up for the great master plan of the Martells for their revenge.

And Quetyn utterly **** it up.

He basically shows up at Daenerys' court and mubbles his way through handing over the marriage offer and she's already getting married to stabilize her foreign kingdom. Daenerys weirdly doesn't dismiss Quentyn and basically says, "We'll probably get married later" which is a weird thing to do but shows just how removed from Westerosi mores she is. Quentyn, however, feels like a failure and gets himself killed after trying to do some epic Hogwarts, "I am the blood of the targaryens, I shall tame this dragon!"

It is an utter embarrassment and a sad life of a boy hero cut short.

That's who Quentyn was to me: the guy who wandered in from a more escapist story. Luke Skywalker getting gunned down in the Death Star detention level and Obi Wan being left with, "Well, crap, now what?"

I see him as more humorous than sad. He is a prince that transforms into a Frog, then to a prince again to finally died croaking and catching fire

Quote

That was all it took for Quentyn Martell to realize that something had gone awry. "Take them," he croaked, even as the basilisk's hand darted for his shortsword.

Quote

Green, the prince thought, his scales are green. "Rhaegal," he said. His voice caught in his throat, and what came out was a broken croak. Frog, he thought, I am turning into Frog again. "The food," he croaked, remembering. "Bring the food."

Imagine a mix of Michigan J. Frog singing "Hello! Ma Baby" and Wile E. Coyote playing with rockets and explosives

Quote

Tell me that I'm your own, my baby
Hello my baby, hello my honey
Hello my ragtime, summertime gal
Send me a kiss by wire, by wire
Baby, my heart's on fire, on fire
If you refuse me, honey, you lose me
And you'll be left alone, oh baby
Telephone, and tell me, tell me
Tell me I'm your very own, oh

 

[C.T. Phipps]

I guess he seemed like a likable enough fellow. Poor guy died a virgin despite being a Prince. That's just terrible.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Quentyn is a deconstruction of the Prince charming archetype with him going on an adventure to search and marry a princess/queen but despite his genuine qualities and him being a reasonable and relatable character, it is clear that Quentyn is out of his depth and as Dany and Ser Barristan noted his appearance is far too average to be a match for Daenerys, plus he has lost many companions and had to do many sacrifices to find Daenerys which was all for nothing.

His misadventures and death also will surely have an impact, most surely a negative one, on Daenerys' future meeting and relations with house Martell and Dorne who will certainely rally Aegon instead and be Dany's enemies in the future. 

[Shagwell the mad jester]

Some interesting theories here. But quite opposed to what I think.

Yes, Quentyn was introduced to the story to release the dragons (which is in itself a highly important plot twist). And the dragons burned him. (Yes it's Barristan's POV, but there is not the slightest evidence why it should be wrong). And that is another important point in my oponion: we see how a more or less normal human being reacts to their powers. It overwhelms him and he dies. As a Dornish prince he does have some Targaryen blood in him - but apparently not enough for the dragons. This also seems to be the explanation of all the intermarriage politics of the Targaryens: the dragons can only be mastered by pure-blooded dragonlords. (it goes without saying that all the speculations of Quentyn being the true Aegon are impossible from this point of view).

And of course we are introduced to some of the mercenaries, I guess they will play an important role, once Dany has to fight fAegon in Westeros (if she ever gets there *lol*).

One side note: The  Prince That Was Promised is Dany according to Maester Aemon's opinion in the last chapter of AFFC. He provides a very elegant explanation that is far from having been falsified at this point.

[Mister Smikes]

On 11/24/2021 at 9:19 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Quentyn is a deconstruction of the Prince charming archetype with him going on an adventure to search and marry a princess/queen but despite his genuine qualities and him being a reasonable and relatable character, it is clear that Quentyn is out of his depth and as Dany and Ser Barristan noted his appearance is far too average to be a match for Daenerys, plus he has lost many companions and had to do many sacrifices to find Daenerys which was all for nothing.

You expected him to fail, and he failed.  That does not deconstruct anything.  A frog that remains a frog, and dies horribly because he is only a frog and out of his depth, does not subvert anything.  

The whole point of the story of the Frog who becomes a Prince is that it subverted expectations.

On 11/24/2021 at 9:19 AM, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

His misadventures and death also will surely have an impact, most surely a negative one, on Daenerys' future meeting and relations with house Martell and Dorne who will certainely rally Aegon instead and be Dany's enemies in the future. 

Nobody's going to be shedding any tears for the death of Quentyn.   If conflict arises between Dany and the Martells, it will be for other reaosns.

When Quentyn turns out to be alive, and shows up with a dragon, and spoils all their plans, that's when they'll start crying.

[Mister Smikes]

On 12/7/2021 at 11:09 AM, Shagwell the mad jester said:

Yes, Quentyn was introduced to the story to release the dragons (which is in itself a highly important plot twist).

You don't need 4 Quentyn POV chapters for that.  You just need the guards to come to Barristan and tell him the dragons have escaped.  Which is what happened.

On 12/7/2021 at 11:09 AM, Shagwell the mad jester said:

And the dragons burned him. (Yes it's Barristan's POV, but there is not the slightest evidence why it should be wrong).

That's a rather denialistic statement.  If you said "there's no proof Barristan is wrong" I would have agreed with you.  But not the slightest evidence???

 

[Frey family reunion]

The whole point of the frog prince story (btw the only time GRRM seems interested in informing the reader of the myth behind his reference) is that receiving the kiss by your one true love leads to a transformation.

My guess, if Quentyn is indeed Aegon, is that Rhaegar was right all along, and he was one of the three heads of the dragon.  Only to be a head of the dragon, doesn’t mean to be a dragon rider, it’s much more literal than that.  I think it means that your consciousness is transferred into a dragon, and Rhaegar’s prophecy is fulfilled when three consciousnesses are transferred.  I think that Quentyn may be the first.

So Quentyn’s actual kiss by his one true love, is the kiss by fire he received from Rhaegal, which like Bran’s fall from the tower may have been the triggering event to start his telepathic link with the dragons.  Which is why he’s kept alive for three days on a death bed, it further mirrors Bran’s death bed experience when Bran’s third eye finally opens.

I think that Quentyn’s consciousness ends up transferring to one of the dragons before he ultimately passes away, leading to a second life inside one of the dragons.  

[Shagwell the mad jester]

*LOL* In another thread I've already been told, that my rhetoric is sometimes running wild. Of course I mean it like that: we have no reason to doubt that Quentyn is dead. Everything else seems to be fan fiction based on wishful thinking.

The explanation that GRRM is ironizing a literary trope here makes a lot more sense to me than seeing Quentyn ressurected within a dragon or this whole "hiden identity" thing. (I don't even believe that Young Griff is Aegon, why should I believe this with any other character? *lol*)

[Shagwell the mad jester]

What we see in Quentyn: you can be a Prince with (at least partly) the right blood. You go to foreign continent on an arduous journey into a war you don't know much about. Then you get the chance to meet your princess and prove that you are the one she needs. And you fail terribly.

This is a tale of futility and absurdity (in a literary sense, like the theater of the absurd).  I appreciate this (but many people apparently don't). And that he freed the dragons is nevertheless a plot twist so important, that it justifies a few POVs.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Shagwell the mad jester said:

*LOL* In another thread I've already been told, that my rhetoric is sometimes running wild. Of course I mean it like that: we have no reason to doubt that Quentyn is dead. Everything else seems to be fan fiction based on wishful thinking.

The explanation that GRRM is ironizing a literary trope here makes a lot more sense to me than seeing Quentyn ressurected within a dragon or this whole "hiden identity" thing. (I don't even believe that Young Griff is Aegon, why should I believe this with any other character? *lol*)

Nah

ETA: I'd be more inclined to agree with you if Quentyn had just been introduced as a regular character in Dany and Barristan's POV.  But instead, we get Quentyn as a POV character.  And for what reason exactly?  Why did GRRM feel the need to give us several chapters through Quentyn's eyes?  

[Phylum of Alexandria]

On 10/6/2021 at 5:10 AM, C.T. Phipps said:

Quentyn's interest to me is less of his role in the story in-universe and the idea that he's an enormous p***take at stereotypical fantasy heroes. I think George R.R. Martin got a little wrapped up in his universe's epic alternate history and wanted to take a break by writing another deconstruction that underlines so much of Westeros. There's a reason it's considered to be the WATCHMEN of the fantasy genre and so subversive.

Quentyn is a somewhat nerdy and bookish protagonist that is shy around girls but set off to marry the beautiful awesome special princess so he can save the world/conquer the kingdom. He's a basic Rand al'Thor figure before said guy goes utterly insane. We've been given the set up for the great master plan of the Martells for their revenge.

And Quetyn utterly **** it up.

He basically shows up at Daenerys' court and mubbles his way through handing over the marriage offer and she's already getting married to stabilize her foreign kingdom. Daenerys weirdly doesn't dismiss Quentyn and basically says, "We'll probably get married later" which is a weird thing to do but shows just how removed from Westerosi mores she is. Quentyn, however, feels like a failure and gets himself killed after trying to do some epic Hogwarts, "I am the blood of the targaryens, I shall tame this dragon!"

It is an utter embarrassment and a sad life of a boy hero cut short.

That's who Quentyn was to me: the guy who wandered in from a more escapist story. Luke Skywalker getting gunned down in the Death Star detention level and Obi Wan being left with, "Well, crap, now what?"

I mostly agree with your take, but where does Dany basically say "We'll probably get married later?" She takes Quentyn down to the dragon pit because she knows Dorne wants dragons, and she knows she'll need some dragon riders, at least eventually. While both are not in the know as to how dragons are controlled at this point, Dany's offer to Quent is fairly pragmatic and definitely platonic. Quentyn's head is still stuck in Romantic Hero mode, however, and so once Dany flees the scene, he takes her offer as a challenge to seize his role as a protagonist of the story, but that doesn't work out so well.

[EggBlue]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Nah

ETA: I'd be more inclined to agree with you if Quentyn had just been introduced as a regular character in Dany and Barristan's POV.  But instead, we get Quentyn as a POV character.  And for what reason exactly?  Why did GRRM feel the need to give us several chapters through Quentyn's eyes?  

well , it would have made Quentyn more of a plot device than a character. in an interview Martin said he regrets not writing another Arys Oakheart POV to show his perspective when he .. um...ran into his death. with his POVs , readers know what Quentyn was thinking when he did what he did...they know who Quentyn is and they can feel for him . 

I for one, welcome the theories that suggest Quent's survival or second life . but not because his story would be pointless otherwise. it's not pointless. but it'll be fun to see our decent frog again.. having said that, the Q=A theory is a bit far fetched. Quentyn Martell could be a head of the dragon in the sense you said without making him Aegon. if there is the need to bring Rhaegar's promised son back to make him a head, it might as well be Young Griff and the second head. Aegon was a second born and the second head in Rhaegar's mind anyways and right after a half Martell princess at that.

[Mister Smikes]

On 12/14/2021 at 6:10 AM, Shagwell the mad jester said:

*LOL* In another thread I've already been told, that my rhetoric is sometimes running wild. Of course I mean it like that: we have no reason to doubt that Quentyn is dead.

Well, at the very least, speaks for yourself.  I, at least, have reasons to doubt that Quentyn is dead.

On 12/14/2021 at 6:10 AM, Shagwell the mad jester said:

Everything else seems to be fan fiction based on wishful thinking.

I was never, to the extent that I was conscious of it, a fan of Quentyn or his chapters.  As far as I am conscious of my reasons, I am merely following the evidence.  The evidence that you say does not exist.

I'm fine with people being unconvinced by my reasons.  But when they say I don't have any, it really feels like they are just sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling "LA LA LA I CAN"T HEAR YOU."

On 12/14/2021 at 6:10 AM, Shagwell the mad jester said:

The explanation that GRRM is ironizing a literary trope here makes a lot more sense to me than seeing Quentyn ressurected within a dragon or this whole "hidden identity" thing.

Quentyn does not need to be resurrected within a dragon, because he isn't dead.  As for his "hidden identity", that is related but separate.  I became convinced he was alive long before I became convinced he was not actually Quentyn.

On 12/14/2021 at 6:10 AM, Shagwell the mad jester said:

(I don't even believe that Young Griff is Aegon, why should I believe this with any other character? *lol*)

Well, a fake Aegon plot has rather less of a point without a real Aegon for contrast.   And whoever Young Griff is, he is definitely not the son of Griff, so it is not as though there is not some mystery as to his identity.

We've already been told, by the HOTU visions, that Aegon is TPTWP, only to dismiss that clue with the (red herring) news that he was dead.

On 12/14/2021 at 6:42 AM, Shagwell the mad jester said:

What we see in Quentyn: you can be a Prince with (at least partly) the right blood. You go to foreign continent on an arduous journey into a war you don't know much about. Then you get the chance to meet your princess and prove that you are the one she needs. And you fail terribly.

This is a tale of futility and absurdity (in a literary sense, like the theater of the absurd).   I appreciate this (but many people apparently don't). And that he freed the dragons is nevertheless a plot twist so important, that it justifies a few POVs.

Hundreds of pages of literary absurdity after GRRM promised us he was trying to bring the series to a conclusion?  I guess the joke really is on the fans then.

[Mister Smikes]

3 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

nvm

 

 

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Mister Smikes said:

We've already been told, by the HOTU visions, that Aegon is TPTWP, only to dismiss that clue with the (red herring) news that he was dead.

I don't know if your theory is true or not.  Specifically, Rhaegar believes Aegon is TPWIP.  But is he?  There is this odd bit here:

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

 

If Aegon was born nine months after the appearance of the comet; I'm not sure he qualifies as TPWIP however much Rhaegar wanted it to be so.  

[Mister Smikes]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Specifically, Rhaegar believes Aegon is TPWIP.  But is he? 

The text gives us reason to believe that Aegon is TPTWP.  Specifically, we are told this via the HOTU visions, by way of Rhaegar.  The visions could be wrong.  Rhaegar could be wrong.    But in literary terms, this is either a clue, foreshadowing final revelations, or a "red herring" intended to mislead us.

If this is meant as a red herring, then GRRM is not trying too hard to mislead us.  For this immediately followed by Jorah explaining away the "red herring" (if that's what it is) by saying (paraphrase) "Well, that was just Rhaegar's opinion, and he was obviously wrong, because Aegon is dead."

"Move along nothing to see here."  Which seems more like how a sneaky author would treat a clue than a red herring.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

There is this odd bit here:

If Aegon was born nine months after the appearance of the comet; I'm not sure he qualifies as TPWIP however much Rhaegar wanted it to be so.  

Dunno.  If Rhaegar thought being conceived under a comet is good enough, maybe GRRM agrees with him.  

Or maybe Aegon has yet to be (re)born amid salt and smoke while the red star bleeds.  Don't the warrior's sons carve stars on their chests?