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What exactly is the point of Quentyn?

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On 10/19/2019 at 10:07 AM, Platypus Rex said:

That's not Quentyn.  That's someone who Barristan thinks is Quentyn.  It's the Pentoshi prince, not the Dornish prince.  We have not seen the real Quentyn (that is, the real Aegon) since he started to scream.  Archie and Gerris saw what happened, but they also clearly know more than they are saying to Barristan.

The text says it's the Dornish prince, but the text reflects the POV of the chapter.  Barristan's POV.   Barristan believes it is the Dornish prince, so the text says that.

Just as we were told that Jon was Ned's bastard, sired on campaign.  Maybe it is not true.  But it is what Catelyn believes.

We will have to agree to disagree on this. 

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7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

We will have to agree to disagree on this. 

Sure.  It's only a theory.  I only gave it because the OP asks for theories.  I was only arguing with your claim to offer definite disproof.

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Quentyn's role in the Battle of Meereen will be to fly Viserion wearing a tattered cloak, and signal the Windblown to switch sides.

We see some of the setup for this in the Barristan chapter where he tries to recruit Archie and Gerris to go on a mission to the Tattered Prince.  Gerris is hesitant.  He knows what Barristan does not, that Tatters has just died on Dany's bed, and if they go to the Windblown, the Windblown are likely to be curious and vindictive about their missing leader.  He cannot explain his problem in front of Barristan, and so wants a word alone with Archie.  Barristan refuses to allow this.

But Archie has a plan ...

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On 7/13/2020 at 6:49 PM, GoldenGail3 said:

Quentin is not Aegon VI.. what makes people think this?

It is possible that Quentin is Aegon VI in metaphysical/symbolic sense. Basically, he shows what would/may have happened if Aegon (Young Griff) went to meet Daenerys in Meereen.

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On 7/18/2020 at 1:02 AM, Aldarion said:

It is possible that Quentin is Aegon VI in metaphysical/symbolic sense. Basically, he shows what would/may have happened if Aegon (Young Griff) went to meet Daenerys in Meereen.

Good point.

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On 9/8/2019 at 11:29 AM, grimBlue said:

When I read ADWD the first time I found his existence very frustrating. On top of the fact he does nothing interesting in the slightest, he isn't even an interesting character himself. Literally the most remarkable aspect about him is that he's so boring that's how he's described in the narrative on multiple occasions. The second time I read ADWD, I found myself totally puzzled by his existence as a character with a POV. He has nothing to add to the plot, nothing to add to the cast of characters - all of which are infinitely more interesting than him -, nothing to even really offer Daenerys as is made plain when they finally meet.

I agree, Quentyn's chapters were really boring. The only chapter that was halfway interesting was the Dragontamer. 

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But aside from being a sleep aid, I think Quentyn's chapters and death was to drive Dorne to fAegon.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/13/2020 at 9:49 AM, GoldenGail3 said:

Quentin is not Aegon VI.. what makes people think this?

Lots of reasons.  None of them stand on their own, it's more an overall connect-the-dots thing. The broad points are these. (1) Rhaegar foresaw that his son Aegon was TPtWP; (2) the Dragon has 3 heads [so other promising candidates need not suggest Rhaegar is wrong] (3) Varys says baby Aegon survived and was smuggled out of King's Landing; (4) Illyrio hints a female line of the Blackfyres may survive; (5) Doran's wife Mellario, a noblewoman from Norvos, spends most of her time in Norvos; (6) Norvosi noblewomen shave their heads & wear wigs; (7) Lemore is a mystery woman [& a match for Mellario in terms of beauty, age, ladyship, motherhood etc.]; (8) we meet Young Griff & Lemore where the river meets the Pentos-to-Norvos road, [and it seems they did not come from Pentos];  (9) the Blackfyre-aligned Golden Company supports Young Griff's cause for mysterious reasons other than money; (10) Young Griff is a petulant sore loser [and IMHO no-one's idea of a Prince that Was Promised]; (11) there's a prophesy about a Mummer's Dragon; (12) Quentyn & Aegon are about the same age, and are first cousins by way of their Martell heritage; (13) a child that starts life resembling one parent can grow to resemble the other - Arianne Martell is an example; (14) Quentyn's nickname is "Frog" and Dany jokes about him being a Frog who will turn into a Prince; (15) Quentyn/Frog was fostered with the Yronwoods at a young age; the plan to foster him began when he was only 3, whereupon Mellario threw a tantrum because she did want to be separated from her son; (16) when Frog sleeps, he dreams of fire and blood; (17) Frog yelled at a dragon and struck it in the face with a whip right after seeing it kill someone horribly [if that's not badass; I don't know what is]; (17) Prince Tatters is ordinary-looking, & says this makes it easy for him act incognito whenever he removes his striking cloak; (18) When Quentyn/Frog was supposedly fatally injured in the pit, there 4 non-descript Windblown present dressed in disguises similar to Frog's disguise; (19) the burnt-beyond recognition man who dies on Dany's bed speaks very little & only to make small requests of Missandei -- no-one else can bear to be in his company; (20) Frog's friends Archie & Gerris know something they cannot discuss in front of Barristan [or the reader]; (21) after escaping the pit, Viserion made his lair in a pyramid from which all the inhabitants fled [which pyramid then became a perfect hiding place for anyone not afraid of Viserion]. Note that all of the above [except the stuff in brackets which diverges to some extent into argument, though I believe I can defend them if challenged] is all straight from the book. 

To which we might add the mystery raised by the OP.  Why spend so much time on Quentyn?

To make a long story short, there is evidence that Aegon VI may have survived, and also evidence that Young Griff may be a fake Aegon VI (Blackfyre or whatever).  I don't think anyone denies this, but it seems most fans see them as mutually exclusive options, with fans picking one, and regarding evidence for the other as red herrings to keep readers guessing.   Most seem to assume that if Baby Aegon survived then Young Griff is real (and vice versa).  But what if both are true?  What if Young Griff is fake, but there is also a real Aegon VI?  What better candidate do we have, if not Quentyn "Frog" Martell?  

 

EDIT:  I crossed out #13, as I can't find the quote I was thinking of and may have misremembered the evidence.

Edited by Mister Smikes

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I'm guessing that Quentyn serves the Moqorro/Victarion plot line by releasing the dragons. Victarion arrives just in time, presumably to save the day and fulfil the glorious destiny that Moqorro has in store for him.  This could be what Quaithe was referring to when she warns Dany about the Sun's Son and not trusting anyone. 

I doubt that Quentyn will survive the dragon blast but if he is an important character, I wonder how that can be.  Suppose Moqorro brings him back to life, as another potential dragon rider. 

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm guessing that Quentyn serves the Moqorro/Victarion plot line by releasing the dragons.

Surely this could have been handled in Dany's POV and Barristan's POV without any need for 4 separate Quentyn POV chapters (not to mention a whole host of other Quentyn-related backstory and development).

Indeed, a Windblown squad could have invaded the dragon-pit to kill the dragons -- accidentally releasing them, without any need for Quentyn to be involved at all.

Heck, we barely even need the Windblown.  The dragons, when released, were starting to demonstrate an ability to burrow into stone.

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On 10/21/2019 at 4:13 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Quentyn's role in the Battle of Meereen will be to fly Viserion wearing a tattered cloak, and signal the Windblown to switch sides.

 

How in the holy heck is he supposed to do this if he's DEAD? He got roasted! It's in the POV!

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50 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

Surely this could have been handled in Dany's POV and Barristan's POV without any need for 4 separate Quentyn POV chapters (not to mention a whole host of other Quentyn-related backstory and development).

Well, you have to take that up with George.  Quentyn released the dragons.  Now they are uncontrolled and Dany is missing.  So enter Victarion and Moqorro with Dragonbinder.  And Quentyn is probably dead .... for now.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/27/2021 at 12:40 PM, Mister Smikes said:

To which we might add the mystery raised by the OP.  Why spend so much time on Quentyn?

To make a long story short, there is evidence that Aegon VI may have survived, and also evidence that Young Griff may be a fake Aegon VI (Blackfyre or whatever).  I don't think anyone denies this, but it seems most fans see them as mutually exclusive options, with fans picking one, and regarding evidence for the other as red herrings to keep readers guessing.   Most seem to assume that if Baby Aegon survived then Young Griff is real (and vice versa).  But what if both are true?  What if Young Griff is fake, but there is also a real Aegon VI?  What better candidate do we have, if not Quentyn "Frog" Martell?  

That's my suspcion as well.  Perhaps Ned isn't the only one raising his sister's child as if he's his own.  If true, then we have to go back to Rhaegar's belief about Aegon being the Prince that Was Promised.  And what exactly does that mean?  And what does it mean for Aegon to be one of the "heads" of a dragon?

And that returns me to the question, of whether Quentyn can both be dead yet still around, just in a different body.  Perhaps a scaly, winged body, flapping around Mereen.  

Is Quentyn's "death bed" similar to Bran's near "death bed".  Where a certain telepathic awakening occurred.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well, you have to take that up with George.  

I'm not going to take it up with George.  If I assume your theory is correct, then yes, my argument against your theory is an argument with George.  But I don't have to assume your theory is correct.  I have pointed out a weakness in your theory and you don't seem to have an answer.  I guess I'll just have to wait and see what answers George provides, in due time.

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40 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

I'm not going to take it up with George.  If I assume your theory is correct, then yes, my argument against your theory is an argument with George.  But I don't have to assume your theory is correct.  I have pointed out a weakness in your theory and you don't seem to have an answer.  I guess I'll just have to wait and see what answers George provides, in due time.

At best everything is guesswork.  From your perspective, I've asked myself about the the prince who is promised before with a little word play.  This is what Selmy said: 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

When I think of someone who is promised, I think of a marriage contract.  What was Prince Doran promised?  A marriage alliance with the Targaryen who would succeed to the throne?  First Rhaegar, then Viserys and then Dany, who isn't named in the contract witnessed by the Sealord of Braavos.  Although she says it applies to her as well.

Prince Doran is certainly covering all his bases and keeping his cards close to his chest.  He is also waiting to find out the results of whatever it is the Sarella is up to at the Citadel.  What is his purpose in sending Quentyn with his 'gift' to Dany.  This feels like a feint.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Spurned Suitor

The Tattered Prince finished his wine, turned the cup over, and set it down between them. "So. Let me see if I understand. A proven liar and oathbreaker wishes to contract with us and pay in promises. And for what services? I wonder. Are my Windblown to smash the Yunkai'i and sack the Yellow City? Defeat a Dothraki khalasar in the field? Escort you home to your father? Or will you be content if we deliver Queen Daenerys to your bed wet and willing? Tell me true, Prince Frog. What would you have of me and mine?"

"I need you to help me steal a dragon."

 

 

 

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Arianne will blame daenerys for her death. Just as she does with viserys. Dorne will side with Aegon on this. Even if they know it's a fake.

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9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When I think of someone who is promised, I think of a marriage contract. 

To me "Prince That Was Promised" merely means "Prince That Was Prophesied".  My understanding is that this refers to a specific prophesy, one that Rhaegar and others knew alot about, but that we readers don't know too much about, just yet.

Anyhow, it is "WAS promised" not "WILL BE promised", so it can hardly be taken as predicting a future marriage contract.

9 minutes ago, LynnS said:

What is his purpose in sending Quentyn with his 'gift' to Dany.  This feels like a feint.

Doran has lots of secrets, but I'm inclined to take this at face value.  Doran expects war, and wants Dany for him rather than against him.

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20 minutes ago, Mister Smikes said:

To me "Prince That Was Promised" merely means "Prince That Was Prophesied".  My understanding is that this refers to a specific prophesy, one that Rhaegar and others knew alot about, but that we readers don't know too much about, just yet.

Of course the PWIP refers to a prophecy.  I'm just pointing out the word play as it applies to Doran who was also a prince who was promised something.  Is, Quentyn the original Aegon secreted away to the water gardens?  I don't know.

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