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Fragile Bird

US Politics: Flaming the Flamenco Flamingo

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12 minutes ago, Darzin said:

I think the idea that Trump will create a dictatorship in America is absurd. Trump is rightly criticized everyday for not understanding the nuts and bolts of governing, messing around golfing and not paying attention in meetings. The idea that Trump could pull of a coup is laughable. Creating a dictatorship is hard work and I don't think he could even pretend to have what it takes. Whether he concedes or not the winner of 2020 will be sworn in and that will be that.

 

As our Republican friends love to remind us America is a republic not a pure democracy and the Electoral College chooses the President not the voters as long as the Electoral College votes for the Democrat. Trump has no real means to contest the election. Sure he could say he will and will probably tweet LIES RIGGED and who knows what else but once the electoral college votes are cast a million little wheels start turning in preparation for the next president and the full wait of the inertia of American institutions bears down, and I doubt Trump has the knowledge or the attention span to stop that. Tweeting angrily about rigged elections and refusing to admit he lost does not a coup make. Roy Moore never conceded in Alabama and yet Doug Jones is a senator not him. 

Thanks for this: there a plenty of ways the country is moving rapidly fascist under Trump, but I feel pretty confident that if push came to shove theres no opportunity for a coup here - the armed forces would need to back Trump and I don't see any evidence that's the case. Not to mention the entire GOP top to bottom, and the Dems would have to roll over for real (they've had plenty of practice, though).  Because it would mean actual threat of violence between two groups that already have power, and I think Americans in general and especially those with any skin in the game are too cowardly to commit to this.  

Trump's been pretty successful at trashing laws and norms, but this is another level of shit altogether that requires much more complicity from everyone.  Maybe I'm naive but when everyone starts talking about civil war and coups I just think it's fucking nuts in a country with this much disposable money.    They're all making too much off the current system to trash it.

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12 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

Golly gee, sorry for the confusion, I was talking to @Bonnot OG.

Then again you weren't actually specifically inviting me into a conversation, were u?

Silly me projecting. :devil:

 

4 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

... the fuck? You know how a forum works?

explain it to me 

If you have an issue with something I typed pick it apart. Else let @Bonnot OG reply.

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6 hours ago, Triskele said:

It's remarkable to me how she hired tons of security as her first action as Ed. secretary.  

Apparently, upon taking the job, she imagined she'd be Michelle Pfeiffer circa 1995:

 

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1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

rump's been pretty successful at trashing laws and norms, but this is another level of shit altogether that requires much more complicity from everyone

That's what the optimistic sorts, the scared sorts, etc. keep saying prior to the escalation to the next level, which he's been doing consistently every day, every week, even before the election.

I wish you were right and I were wrong, but just as with the elections themselves, unless we DO THINGS RIGHT NOW, he will either STEAL the election as they've been doing in all kinds of ways in states like North Carolina, or just refuses to leave and has his base surround the White House with their weapons.  And boyoboy do they have weapons.  You are also putting in a fatuous lot of faith in the military, which, history teaches us, in these cases, is just, well, fatuous.  Or even current events teaches us, i.e. for a single example, Egypt.

 

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1 minute ago, Zorral said:

That's what the optimistic sorts, the scared sorts, etc. keep saying prior to the escalation to the next level, which he's been doing consistently every day, every week, even before the election.

I wish you were right and I were wrong, but just as with the elections themselves, unless we DO THINGS RIGHT NOW, he will either STEAL the election as they've been doing in all kinds of ways in states like North Carolina, or just refuses to leave and has his base surround the White House with their weapons.  And boyoboy do they have weapons.  You are also putting in a fatuous lot of faith in the military, which, history teaches us, in these cases, is just, well, fatuous.  Or even current events teaches us, i.e. for a single example, Egypt.

 

Remember though... Trump has no control over the actual process, the states do, yes they could cheat but voter fraud is super rare. Remember the president has no control over elections the electors ultimately do he CAN"T cancel the election sure he can tweet he will, but who is going to listen?Remember how he tweeted about banning trans soldiers and the military and they responded that he can't issue orders via tweet. Who is going to follow those orders? Certainly not the democratic electors. Once they vote who is going to argue, on January 2020, will the government listen to Trump who derides them as a swamp or the duly elected president? 

As for the military the Egyptian military put one of their own in power from a cabal of generals not an outsider, Morsi was closer to Trump then Sisi is. Do you really think the Joint chiefs, who interact with Trump daily and SEE and HEAR what he is, are going to put their careers on the line for him. Yes the grunts in the army trend conservative but even then the army has a high percentage of minorities and that conservative trend diminishes dramatically when you get to the officers, and the people who you really need the higher ups have met Trump, who many of his own appointees have a loathing for ,these men who were not appointed by him are now going to go to the wire for him? Coups are usually done by the army for the army not someone who has at best a rocky relationship with them. Who else is there the Federal Bureaucracy? They despise Trump. The intelligence agencies do too. Trump is horrible at fostering allies because he's a shit human who is hard to get along with and he has no cadre of loyal followers who are close to him. He could call his deluded fans, but remember where he is DC one of the most liberal cities in the US with a Police Force and National guard to match. But that doesn't matter Trump camped in the Whitehouse will look like a deluded fool and the federal government will start taking orders from the new president. It won't come to that though, Trumps is at his core a coward and a blowhard. He'll blow and bluster but in the end he'll slink off never admitting defeat to go and whine on whatever TV show will have him.

 

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10 minutes ago, Bonnot OG said:

Ah the can’t happen here mentality is still in full force.

Not so much can't as won't because Trump has no one who is going to overthrow the government for him and he sure as hell isn't doing it himself because he's lazy and because no man rules alone. As much as I think the Electoral College is a bad system it's actually pretty good at preventing  dictatorial power grabs because technically voters and the previous president have no say it's all up the electors and if states don't certify they also don't get a congressional delegation.  

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I voted for Hilary. I am a registered republican.

I have thought about changing to independent.

I could not believe that a tv reality show dude actually became the President of the USA.

That my brethren implies america has a problem.

American's elected their president.

Kinda like those religious vows for better or worse. Yuk!

 

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24 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah I'm just going to assume you all did a bad bunch of drugs.

:blush:The all wise and knowing google search supplied --- the Electoral College consists of 538 electors. A majority of 270 electoral votes is required to elect the President. Your state's entitled allotment of electors equals the number of members in its Congressional delegation: one for each member in the House of Representatives plus two for your Senators.

American's elected a tv reality personality as their president.

Who is gonna be USA's next commander in chief? Shye, I just paid $2.15 a gallon for unleaded gas --- get rid of the old and bring in the new.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

Who is gonna be USA's next commander in chief? Shye, I just paid $2.15 a gallon for unleaded gas --- get rid of the old and bring in the new.

 

 

Bah, I just paid $5.60 in your money ($8.75 in my money). Cry me a river.

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5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The Education Department has rejected 53,339 of the 54,000 applications for its loan forgiveness program.

The above is a partial quote by @Bonnot OG .

Let us bring it down to personal activity. Did your parents have a tuition plan? Are you one of the young adults who frekked round for two or more semesters.

Yes, there are individuals who attend class and meet requirements. Shyte, wtf do I know, parents can't get access to their child's academic records and the internet makes it possible to not actually be in class.

Old school. I worked at a community college. Benefit package was my child could attend tuition free, except for books and lab, if my child maintained a C average. I ended up paying for two semesters of lunch plus the book and lab fee.

That is the problem with free tuition. Sounds good. Yeah, some individuals are going to hunker down and study and pass their classes. Other individuals however are gonna mess a round cause it is free.

This is truly incoherent, and higher education funding writ large is a separate issue from whether this one program signed into law in 2007 is being administered well or not.  

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2 minutes ago, Triskele said:

This is truly incoherent, and higher education funding writ large is a separate issue from whether this one program signed into law in 2007 is being administered well or not.  

He’s not TALKING to you! He’s talking to bonot og!

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7 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The Education Department has rejected 53,339 of the 54,000 applications for its loan forgiveness program.

The above is a partial quote by @Bonnot OG .

Let us bring it down to personal activity. Did your parents have a tuition plan? Are you one of the young adults who frekked round for two or more semesters.

Yes, there are individuals who attend class and meet requirements. Shyte, wtf do I know, parents can't get access to their child's academic records and the internet makes it possible to not actually be in class.

Old school. I worked at a community college. Benefit package was my child could attend tuition free, except for books and lab, if my child maintained a C average. I ended up paying for two semesters of lunch plus the book and lab fee.

That is the problem with free tuition. Sounds good. Yeah, some individuals are going to hunker down and study and pass their classes. Other individuals however are gonna mess a round cause it is free.

What are you even talking about? What does your last point have to do with your first? I don't get too mad on the internet, but your inability to think really frustrates me.

Edited by Simon Steele

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On 9/12/2019 at 9:28 PM, sologdin said:

the convention on refugees does not include a first country rule, as i recall it, though some states have agitated for it.  the US insistence on considering refugee status 'discretionary' is manifestly unlawful.

That whole "they passed through another perfectly fine country first so they are economic migrants" is straight out of the Australian racist lexicon that's been used for the last 15 years. Especially the bolded phrase. So much of the evil we're seeing across the world on this front was pioneered (in the modern world) by Australia and shown that you can get way with it. Fuck us.

On 9/14/2019 at 2:06 AM, The Great Unwashed said:

Maybe it's just me, but I cannot for the life of me understand why more businesses don't throw their support behind universal healthcare. I mean, I can understand why the healthcare industry doesn't want it, and why businesses that already don't offer insurance to their employees wouldn't want it either.

They have made the calculation that maintaining the broken spirit of Labor in respect to job mobility and power in the negotiation process is worth more to them than the direct monetary saving they would have. Fear of losing health insurance has a colossal freezing effect on job mobility and look at how much worse the situation is for workers in the US compared to elsewhere.

6 hours ago, Darzin said:

Not so much can't as won't because Trump has no one who is going to overthrow the government for him and he sure as hell isn't doing it himself because he's lazy and because no man rules alone. As much as I think the Electoral College is a bad system it's actually pretty good at preventing  dictatorial power grabs because technically voters and the previous president have no say it's all up the electors and if states don't certify they also don't get a congressional delegation.  

The Republican party apparatus will do it for him even when he's too incompetent to do it himself. They have demonstrated so many times over and over the last 3 years alone that they will bow to whoever gives them power and they respect no rules or conventions in their fight to attain it.

For fucks sake the NC Republicans used a Nine fucking Eleven memorial to get Democrats out of the way to pass a veto override. These are the same assholes that have spent 18 years shouting constantly about the need to respect those that died, respect the troops, respect the sacrifice, praise the military, damn all muslims because of this thing that in reality they care so little about that they'll spit in its face like that.

They will purge likely Dem voters from the roles, they will make a bunch of them cast provisional ballots which will never be counted, they will restrict the availability of polling places so that black Americans have to wait in the snow for literal hours just to cast a vote, they will pass voter ID laws and then make it near impossible for likely Dem voters to gain the required ID. And when all of that still fails to gift them the Presidency they will use the supreme court, which is conveniently stacked with an openly compromised justice who had over a quarter of a million dollars of debt mysteriously cleared just before his nomination alongside other ideologues, to plant their man on the Presidency anyway. And as long as America sits there and says "well he hasn't explicitly said this is a coup so I guess this is still fine" then they will continue even further and that's where you get the possibility of a 3rd "term".

It doesn't happen in a single bound, but it is happening and it is still making headway despite the best efforts of some to resist it.

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5 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Bah, I just paid $5.60 in your money ($8.75 in my money). Cry me a river.

I was about to say the same thing, but got delayed looking up how many litres there are to a gallon. Seriously, petrol that is 80 cents a litre? I'd kill for that.

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12 hours ago, Zorral said:

That's what the optimistic sorts, the scared sorts, etc. keep saying prior to the escalation to the next level

Wait, the "scared sorts" are the ones who aren't pissing their pants about Trump somehow successfully staying in office after a decisive loss?  That's rich.

The actual worry in 2020 among reasonable adults is voter suppression tactics along with Russia/outside forces manipulating the vote not only through the same type of social media propaganda campaign they did last time, but also through hacking all the damn machines that a lot of states still depend upon for a lot of results.  I don't know why there wasn't a nationwide effort to make every precinct in the country count through paper ballots, cost be damned.  I'll take the old school version of election fraud over the potential for mass manipulation in machines "reporting" results all day every day.  Reminds me of a great quote from Boss Tweed's character in Gangs of New York:  "Remember the first rule of politics.  The ballots don't make the results, the counters make the results.  The counters.  Keep counting."

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Standing at the polling stations with guns is an excellent voter repression tactic.  There's lots of experience in this nation with that one too.  It's called scaring the voter.  A very large number of voters are already scared, which is why they're in denial of what others here have described that is already being done to coup the nation. 

2 hours ago, DMC said:

Wait, the "scared sorts" are the ones who aren't pissing their pants about Trump somehow successfully staying in office after a decisive loss?  That's rich.

You are interpreting scared in this situation inaccurately, in other words.  Saying it can't happen here is what was meant, which some posters did understand.

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23 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Standing at the polling stations with guns is an excellent voter repression tactic.  There's lots of experience in this nation with that one too.  It's called scaring the voter.  A very large number of voters are already scared, which is why they're in denial of what others here have described that is already being done to coup the nation. 

Uh, voter suppression tactics had absolutely nothing to do with the portion of your post I quoted and responded to.  Stop pretending it does.  Trump refusing to leave office after a decisive loss and voter suppression tactics are two distinct issues.   The first one is for hand-wringers and conspiracy theorists, the second one is just a matter of how much and how brazen the GOP will be in employing them.

29 minutes ago, Zorral said:

You are interpreting scared in this situation inaccurately, in other words.  Saying it can't happen here is what was meant, which some posters did understand.

What?  How is asserting the people who are saying "I'm not too worried about this dystopian fantasy you're portending" are the scared ones the "accurate" way of interpreting the situation?

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