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Bakker LVII


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is it alleged to be a breach of the normal serial fantasy compact among all readers thereof, who convene as an interpretive collective between installments as a mutual hermeneutic-therapeutic aid society, wherein readers respectively insert themselves into the narrative by speculating as to what course the narrative might take in future installments, by attempting to hypothesize what the protagonists might do or should do and then submit these insertions to the group for assessment? 

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On 9/20/2019 at 6:02 PM, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah he did a bunch of teasers/things to be revealed in i _think_ TUC, and they turned out to be wrong. His excuse was they were just things he HOPED would be revealed. Whoops.

Wasn't he the same guy who Bakker had shown TUC -- or, at least, TGO? He talked on and on about how great it'd be, it answered all these questions, then when pressed, he eventually admitted that Bakker had only shown him the first half? Or was it all bullshit? 

All just sweat on the slog, I guess...

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6 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

Wasn't he the same guy who Bakker had shown TUC -- or, at least, TGO? He talked on and on about how great it'd be, it answered all these questions, then when pressed, he eventually admitted that Bakker had only shown him the first half? Or was it all bullshit? 

All just sweat on the slog, I guess...

No that was Madness, guy who runs the SA forum.

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6 hours ago, .H. said:

It's a good thing that matters of fact and matters of interpretation are the same thing, or else life could be really ambiguous at times.

Hey, H! Nice to have you around. How do you remember things happening? Always curious to hear what folks who are still active over there have to say about it. 

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Hey, H! Nice to have you around. How do you remember things happening? Always curious to hear what folks who are still active over there have to say about it. 

I remember many things, or at least, I could, but I am old now, so, who knows?  In the end though, it hardly seems relevant though.  What might here be considered a fact, might there be considered an opinion and between considered not at all.  What information I have, what I remember and how, is all rather circumstantially irrelevant to the orthodox narrative here.

Were things done that probably, in retrospect, seem imprudent?  Sure, hindsight is great like that.

Were things not done that should have been?  Likely as well.

Could it be possible that people just make mistakes?  I know I do, for example, my post you just quoted, but I'll get to that later.

Could it be that people working off incomplete information could make assumptions that end up not coming true?  Sure.

The "court of public opinion" doesn't run on Bayesian logic.  It doesn't run on rigorous fact-checking.  We all remember things how we believe we ought to.  Memory isn't neutral and maybe that isn't a "law" but part of why it even exists.

Of course, I'm not anywhere near perfect.  Neither is Bakker.  Neither is anyone else who might have said something the ended up not being an ironclad fact-of-the-matter.  Or done things figuring it was for the best and have it not turn out as such.

The malice fails to materialize, for me.  But, who here really cares about that?  Sometimes the road to Hell is indeed paved with good intentions.  I've always seemed to find myself on something of the heterodox view here, so it will be no shock to anyone that the usual clarion call fails to draw me to it, rather than away.  Or maybe it's something else, something good and sinister.

In the end, the TL;DR of it would be: what do I remember?  No narrative of villainy.  No narrative at all.  No villany.  Just people doing what they thought at the time were reasonable things based off what they saw and were told, some of which turned out to seem not so reasonable in retrospect.

But, that was my mistake in posting.  I shouldn't place myself in the way of a good ol' narrative.  Especially one so reasonable.

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2 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah I think you missed a lot of stuff cause there was definitely things done out of pure malice and hatred.

Well, like I said, don't let me spoil the good fun.

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3 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

It wasn't fun for the people involved. Trust me. I really can't say more without violating forum rules.

Well, I'm not asking you to.

I'd delete my posts, but that's not my method.  I let what I say stand and if it's stupid, the posts can just stand as monuments to that stupidity.

Sorry for the derail, I'll let you guys get back to it.

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2 hours ago, .H. said:

I remember many things, or at least, I could, but I am old now, so, who knows?  In the end though, it hardly seems relevant though.  What might here be considered a fact, might there be considered an opinion and between considered not at all.  What information I have, what I remember and how, is all rather circumstantially irrelevant to the orthodox narrative here.

Were things done that probably, in retrospect, seem imprudent?  Sure, hindsight is great like that.

Were things not done that should have been?  Likely as well.

Could it be possible that people just make mistakes?  I know I do, for example, my post you just quoted, but I'll get to that later.

Could it be that people working off incomplete information could make assumptions that end up not coming true?  Sure.

The "court of public opinion" doesn't run on Bayesian logic.  It doesn't run on rigorous fact-checking.  We all remember things how we believe we ought to.  Memory isn't neutral and maybe that isn't a "law" but part of why it even exists.

Of course, I'm not anywhere near perfect.  Neither is Bakker.  Neither is anyone else who might have said something the ended up not being an ironclad fact-of-the-matter.  Or done things figuring it was for the best and have it not turn out as such.

 The malice fails to materialize, for me.  But, who here really cares about that?  Sometimes the road to Hell is indeed paved with good intentions.  I've always seemed to find myself on something of the heterodox view here, so it will be no shock to anyone that the usual clarion call fails to draw me to it, rather than away.  Or maybe it's something else, something good and sinister.

 In the end, the TL;DR of it would be: what do I remember?  No narrative of villainy.  No narrative at all.  No villany.  Just people doing what they thought at the time were reasonable things based off what they saw and were told, some of which turned out to seem not so reasonable in retrospect.

 But, that was my mistake in posting.  I shouldn't place myself in the way of a good ol' narrative.  Especially one so reasonable.

Thanks. That's sort of my feeling nowadays too. I can talk about what has happened and some of the failures and back it up with receipts, but it doesn't really matter that much. I tend to think most of that was at best overzealous fandom and people really wanting to show and share their joy. 

Save one bit. It still matters that Madness harassed me on and off the forums, and then attempted to harass Ran as well. It bothers me a great deal that it took a hell of a lot of effort on Ran's part to get him to stop. That I don't attribute to misinterpretations or incomplete information, or court of public opinion; he did it, it sucked, and I'm still pretty pissed off about it. 

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Ah, well now that kal has mentioned it I guess it’s out of the bag, but yeah, madness harassment, which I think is putting it kindly, was way beyond enthusiastic fan stuff.

Edit: Which is to say, lest I be misunderstood, it was complete bullshit and the dude probably should have served some jail time for it. Fuck that noise.

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12 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Ah, well now that kal has mentioned it I guess it’s out of the bag, but yeah, madness harassment, which I think is putting it kindly, was way beyond enthusiastic fan stuff.

Edit: Which is to say, lest I be misunderstood, it was complete bullshit and the dude probably should have served some jail time for it. Fuck that noise.

I think that's part of the problem, in that this incident did not really manifest on the forums proper -- I was there for pretty much every Bakker thread, and though it inevitably contained various veiled hostile jabs within minor arguments, the under-the-surface stuff going on (which I know nothing other than it involved RL harassment) was undetectable. At least to those of us on the margins. 

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12 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Thanks. That's sort of my feeling nowadays too. I can talk about what has happened and some of the failures and back it up with receipts, but it doesn't really matter that much. I tend to think most of that was at best overzealous fandom and people really wanting to show and share their joy. 

But that is the stuff that is usually rehashed, time and time again here.  What MG said, promised, in his "previews" that failed to materialize.  He is just a guy who wanted to try to help.  He's just a guy who was also going through some real life stuff at the time.  I'm not going to air out his personal business, but he was just trying to do what he thought would be a good thing.  It ended up not working out.  To pillory him for time immemorial just for that, well, seems rather petty and unfair to me.

12 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Save one bit. It still matters that Madness harassed me on and off the forums, and then attempted to harass Ran as well. It bothers me a great deal that it took a hell of a lot of effort on Ran's part to get him to stop. That I don't attribute to misinterpretations or incomplete information, or court of public opinion; he did it, it sucked, and I'm still pretty pissed off about it. 

Well, I can't remember things I didn't know happened.  I'm sorry that happened and honestly, had I known about it at the time, I'd certainly have done anything I realistically could to have it not end up like that.  But, I don't know the exact time frames, but I think wasn't here/there/anywhere at hand, because I was dealing with my own real-life things for a while.

I can't work on things in the past.  I can't undo what has been done.  I can't unsay what Bakker, MG, Madness, or anyone else has said or done.  I can't even unsay stupid thing I personally say.  What they "promised" or claimed, or what they failed to deliver or what they delivered in failure.  I'm just a somewhat stupid guy, with the internet and (usually) some dumb ideas.  I'm hard pressed to even do anything in the present, or effect anything for the future.  Still, we do what we figure we must.

I guess I am just not keen on endlessly rehashing the same issues over and over again though.  And that isn't to say we should forget them.  But there has to be something between forgetting and endlessly bearing them out.  I don't know, maybe this is just my typical nonsense.  Maybe I am just old and tired now.  Maybe there isn't a maybe there.  Who knows?  I don't know.

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I’ll comment more when ok more awake but I do sometimes forget who knew what was going on at the time. To those with no idea we certainly must seem like a bunch of grumps.

as for MG and the previews things I can give the dude a pass, we do make fun of him to much and Crom knows I’ve done stupid well meaning shit when my life has been in the crapper.

madness can burn in hell though, I stand by that one

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