Dance of the Dragons Pilot Near Orders

[The Grey Wolf]

@Lord Varys

I agree. The only way to make the Dance interesting would be to change or add new material.

[Ran]

We've argued about it before, but looking at the response on-line, it seems a lot of people actually do think the Dance will adapt well, and I agree. I think the fact that there's few heroic characters doesn't matter a bit -- we've had plenty of programs on TV reveal that you don't need good guys, you just need interesting characters, and the fact that the interior lives of most of the characters are pretty opaque means there's a lot of room to shade and add nuance to figures who may seem like pure villains according to the historians but who had more complicated motives and goals than the historians are aware of.

I suspect the younger characters will be the key to this one, though. Addam and Alyn, Nettles, Daeron, Baela, Jacaerys, etc.

 

 

[Unknownfinger]

10 hours ago, zionius said:

I think the prequel would focus on Dance as well. But apparently THR thinks otherwise: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-fire-blood-prequel-explained-1239299

Will they make the Targaryens people of color? After all, GRRM himself said it could be an interesting twist.

My issue with the THR article is that it mentions Dunk and Egg and Robert's Rebellion as possible storylines when we already know neither is happening.  I mean there was speculation in both the Deadline and EW pieces as well but this one seems only based on the writers' uninformed thoughts.

 

 

[The Dragon Demands]

Well, my mental breakdown of it doesn’t have one season equal one year, but goes by major story breaks, lasting four seasons on the war itself.

 

....Nettles was black.

[Ran]

Wigler makes it very clear he is wildly speculating. The original THR piece he is responding to is here and is the one that claims that this project isn't really considered a continuation of Cogman's project but somehow a "new take" on "the world" that Cogman was working on. Which... is very odd.

But if the release of F&B led to some retooling of how they approached it, while the focus is still ultimately the Dance, I guess that explains it?

I certainly think I can see the Dance being a minimum 3 year series just to get to the deaths of Rhaenyra and Aegon II, but 4 or even 5 seems entirely feasible, especially if you're willing to get into the Regency.

[Mwm]

22 hours ago, Ran said:

You haven't seen him play Zhukov in The Death of Stalin, I take it.

I admit, I'm confused by the fact that Deadline and THR seem to be reporting subtly contradictory things between one another (Deadline says it's Cogman's project that Condal has revised, THR says it's not that at all, it's something new but in the "same world" or something), and explicitly contradictory with EW. Because of Hibberd's long-running access, I suspect he is the one nearer the mark than they are, but one can see how to square the circle a bit, if a strict Dance focus  has shifted to a somewhat broader story, perhaps beginning... lets say, back in the latter days of Jaehaerys's reign, setting up the later conflict, with the Dance as the end goal rather than the thing that starts up in the first or at latest the second season.

But an anthology series trying to cover the entirety of Targaryen history from the Conquest on... I think that's not too likely, even if there's one aspect that could be appealing to HBO, namely the ability to jump to new casts from season to season, keeping the acting budget down. But it can be alienating to viewers, potentially. On the gripping hand, this is what True Detective and American Horror Story have been doing for awhile, so... maybe?

But for now I believe it's the Dance.

Well, consider this: if they don’t make an anthology show for Fire And Blood, then a lot of the material could never see light of day. They can’t have a regency era in a show focused solely on the Dance, and if they did end it on what note? Just as they couldn’t show Aegon’s later reign in a show solely about the Conquest. That’s a potential cash cow slaughtered. Whereas if they made the whole Targaryen canon as one show, they’ll have a huge flagship show they can keep going for like 20 years at least, building up in some areas like the first few seasons of Game Of Thrones to the more cost heavy events. 

[Ran]

Or they could have a Dance show that runs several years, and a Conquest show, and a Jaehaerys show, and ... 

Anthology shows are pretty tricky, and mostly they fail. 

Hibberd has had the most access of any reporter to GoT's cast and crew, an artifact of the fact that EW used to be part of the TimeWarner corporation, so I feel like his declaring this is a show that's ultimately about the Dance of the Dragons has a lot more weight than Deadline (which is more of an industry gossip rag) and some more weight than THR (which claims it's Cogman's project but also not, which feels like someone is playing semantics to minimize Cogman's work on it, maybe).

 

 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

We've argued about it before, but looking at the response on-line, it seems a lot of people actually do think the Dance will adapt well, and I agree. I think the fact that there's few heroic characters doesn't matter a bit -- we've had plenty of programs on TV reveal that you don't need good guys, you just need interesting characters, and the fact that the interior lives of most of the characters are pretty opaque means there's a lot of room to shade and add nuance to figures who may seem like pure villains according to the historians but who had more complicated motives and goals than the historians are aware of.

Well, it certainly would translate better than any of the other FaB material aside from, perhaps, the Conquest (which could actually be given an interesting narrative in the sense that a united kingship trumps constant war). But the Dance as such is just a pointless war - there is no theme to it that makes it a good story about something.

It is clear that an adaptation would have to add a lot of depth to the characters (which would be, for the older characters, very hard, if they started directly with the Dance) but that doesn't change the fact that the core characters - Rhaenyra, Aegon II, Daemon, Alicent, Aemond, Larys, etc. - are simply not very positive or impressive.

I'm not sure why people should or would care about these people if they were depicted the way George imagined them.

There would have to be massive changes to make them sympathetic.

But even that cannot make the story as such better. The Dance has no arc of suspense, no buildup to a grand finale. The greatest and most interesting (dragon) battles take place early or in the middle of the war - the finale is a whimper. That would be very difficult to present as a tantalizing story.

The average reader would expect that the stakes rise slowly and that there is going to be a grand finale - not that the last 1-2 seasons would cover little more than court intrigues, back-stabbing, and murders.

56 minutes ago, Ran said:

Or they could have a Dance show that runs several years, and a Conquest show, and a Jaehaerys show, and ... 

I can see a Conquest show, the First Dornish War, and Aenys/Maegor up to Jaehaerys I's early reign (up to the point where Queen Rhaena leaves the story). There are arcs there and characters that can translate pretty well on screen.

But the later Jaehaerys I and the Regency of Aegon III have no chance to work well on television (the latter especially not while George has not flashed Aegon III's later reign).

And whether the Dance works will hinge on whether they can build up the characters. There is an entire season/novel as buildup for the War of the Five Kings, and the Dance would at least need that (or some sort of complex flashback/two times scenario). If Daemon/Otto, Rhaenyra/Alicent, Aemond/Lucerys, etc. don't get their proper background (or invented background to flash things out) the entire war would seem even more pointless than it is.

What makes it interesting is why the characters hate each other - not that they are cruel to each other. The latter is just the consequence of the former, and it is a fact that George didn't really flash out the histories of those characters all that well. Things only start to get very detailed when we enter 'The Dying of the Dragons' - 'Heirs of the Dragon' is a very superficial text.

But a show with living, breathing characters has to focus on characterization and not merely dragon fights.

 

[divica]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I can see a Conquest show, the First Dornish War, and Aenys/Maegor up to Jaehaerys I's early reign (up to the point where Queen Rhaena leaves the story). There are arcs there and characters that can translate pretty well on screen.

But the later Jaehaerys I and the Regency of Aegon III have no chance to work well on television (the latter especially not while George has not flashed Aegon III's later reign).

And whether the Dance works will hinge on whether they can build up the characters. There is an entire season/novel as buildup for the War of the Five Kings, and the Dance would at least need that (or some sort of complex flashback/two times scenario). If Daemon/Otto, Rhaenyra/Alicent, Aemond/Lucerys, etc. don't get their proper background (or invented background to flash things out) the entire war would seem even more pointless than it is.

What makes it interesting is why the characters hate each other - not that they are cruel to each other. The latter is just the consequence of the former, and it is a fact that George didn't really flash out the histories of those characters all that well. Things only start to get very detailed when we enter 'The Dying of the Dragons' - 'Heirs of the Dragon' is a very superficial text.

But a show with living, breathing characters has to focus on characterization and not merely dragon fights.

I must say. For me the most interesting thing to adapt would be the time after aegon's death until maegor's death. This time period is much more interesting than the conquest because it has backstabing, court politics, plots from everywhere, with maegor's mother it can talk about her experiences in the conquest, a great ending and it full of events that span several years.

And I agree that there are several chalenges in adapting the dance. I think that overall it will feel like a tragedy where all dragons have pointless deaths and there are very few positive things we can take from the ending. I don t think they can show dragons dying several times and expect people to like it...

[Lord Varys]

36 minutes ago, divica said:

I must say. For me the most interesting thing to adapt would be the time after aegon's death until maegor's death. This time period is much more interesting than the conquest because it has backstabing, court politics, plots from everywhere, with maegor's mother it can talk about her experiences in the conquest, a great ending and it full of events that span several years.

The Faith Militant Uprising would indeed be a rounder story - the old king dies, his son sucks, his other son sucks even more, and then there comes a great young savior, etc.

The issue with that is that I don't think that starting such a story, say, two years before Aegon's death when they start the building of the Red Keep is that Visenya and Maegor and Aenys and Alyssa and their children need some sort character-building before things start to explode.

If they were to make something about the Conqueror I could see a show about the Conquest (which could be really great if they were to give it a proper buildup and made all the rulers and their families living, breathing characters), the First Dornish War, and then 'The Sons of the Dragon' story - which could open with the wedding of Aenys and Alyssa, continuing with Rhaena's birth, the arranged Maegor-Ceryse match to introduce and play up the issues between the Targaryens and the Faith, some key elements underlining the differences between the half-brothers (and their families), Rhaena's girl gang and her younger siblings, Aegon and Visenya getting more and more issues, until the show covers the reigns of Aenys and Maegor in more detail.

Without this kind of buildup even the Faith Militant Uprising would be pretty uninteresting.

36 minutes ago, divica said:

And I agree that there are several chalenges in adapting the dance. I think that overall it will feel like a tragedy where all dragons have pointless deaths and there are very few positive things we can take from the ending. I don t think they can show dragons dying several times and expect people to like it...

Considering that most of the dragons get very anticlimatic - and, at times, frankly, pretty silly - deaths chances are that the average viewer is not going to like a show about the Dance if it is actually a faithful adaptation. Second Tumbleton is silly, Jacaerys/Vermax, too.

Not to mention that the fact that quite a few characters could just as well be dragonless. Rhaenyra never does anything significant with her dragon, and neither does Helaena. Joffrey Velaryon, Aegon the Younger, Aegon II's twins don't need dragons, either, since they don't really show up.

As for the ending - from a narrative point of view the ascension of Aegon III is a horrible ending. The Realm is ripped apart, and then a boy who barely talks takes over? That's not the kind of ending anyone would like - and as I said, a continuation with the Regency material would just be weird. Even if one of the greatest actors alive would play Unwin Peake we would still be stuck a story that would pale by comparison to the action and size and scope of the Dance of the Dragons.

If people suddenly really connected with Aegon III, Gaemon, Baela & Rhaena, Alyn Velaryon, Tyland Lannister, Jeyne Arryn, Corlys Velaryon, etc. on an emotional level it could be fun to watch - but my reaction if people were to try to sell me such a story would be that the show has jumped the shark and they desperately try to continue to milk the cow after they killed all the dragons.

In that sense, the focus of a Dance should be to make the Dance work and really try to make a 7-8 season show with that alone - in combination with the necessary buildup material, of course.

[divica]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Faith Militant Uprising would indeed be a rounder story - the old king dies, his son sucks, his other son sucks even more, and then there comes a great young savior, etc.

The issue with that is that I don't think that starting such a story, say, two years before Aegon's death when they start the building of the Red Keep is that Visenya and Maegor and Aenys and Alyssa and their children need some sort character-building before things start to explode.

If they were to make something about the Conqueror I could see a show about the Conquest (which could be really great if they were to give it a proper buildup and made all the rulers and their families living, breathing characters), the First Dornish War, and then 'The Sons of the Dragon' story - which could open with the wedding of Aenys and Alyssa, continuing with Rhaena's birth, the arranged Maegor-Ceryse match to introduce and play up the issues between the Targaryens and the Faith, some key elements underlining the differences between the half-brothers (and their families), Rhaena's girl gang and her younger siblings, Aegon and Visenya getting more and more issues, until the show covers the reigns of Aenys and Maegor in more detail. 

Without this kind of buildup even the Faith Militant Uprising would be pretty uninteresting.

You are forgeting about the rebellion of the vale and maegor's second marriage and exile that happen shortly after aegon's death. All this could be used in the first season to build maegor, aenys and their families/suporters. Basically they start as allies, deal with a first rebelion and then maegor starts his problems with the faith and end the season with the exile.

Then the second season would be totally insane with a trial by seven and maegor claiming the throne and so on…. 

My problem with the conquest is that I don t see it as more than 2 or 3 season show and it would be kind of too straightforward. Besides the dornish war it doesn t really have enough complexity...

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Faith Militant Uprising would indeed be a rounder story - the old king dies, his son sucks, his other son sucks even more, and then there comes a great young savior, etc.

The issue with that is that I don't think that starting such a story, say, two years before Aegon's death when they start the building of the Red Keep is that Visenya and Maegor and Aenys and Alyssa and their children need some sort character-building before things start to explode.

If they were to make something about the Conqueror I could see a show about the Conquest (which could be really great if they were to give it a proper buildup and made all the rulers and their families living, breathing characters), the First Dornish War, and then 'The Sons of the Dragon' story - which could open with the wedding of Aenys and Alyssa, continuing with Rhaena's birth, the arranged Maegor-Ceryse match to introduce and play up the issues between the Targaryens and the Faith, some key elements underlining the differences between the half-brothers (and their families), Rhaena's girl gang and her younger siblings, Aegon and Visenya getting more and more issues, until the show covers the reigns of Aenys and Maegor in more detail. 

Without this kind of buildup even the Faith Militant Uprising would be pretty uninteresting.

Considering that most of the dragons get very anticlimatic - and, at times, frankly, pretty silly - deaths chances are that the average viewer is not going to like a show about the Dance if it is actually a faithful adaptation. Second Tumbleton is silly, Jacaerys/Vermax, too.

Not to mention that the fact that quite a few characters could just as well be dragonless. Rhaenyra never does anything significant with her dragon, and neither does Helaena. Joffrey Velaryon, Aegon the Younger, Aegon II's twins don't need dragons, either, since they don't really show up.

As for the ending - from a narrative point of view the ascension of Aegon III is a horrible ending. The Realm is ripped apart, and then a boy who barely talks takes over? That's not the kind of ending anyone would like - and as I said, a continuation with the Regency material would just be weird. Even if one of the greatest actors alive would play Unwin Peake we would still be stuck a story that would pale by comparison to the action and size and scope of the Dance of the Dragons.

If people suddenly really connected with Aegon III, Gaemon, Baela & Rhaena, Alyn Velaryon, Tyland Lannister, Jeyne Arryn, Corlys Velaryon, etc. on an emotional level it could be fun to watch - but my reaction if people were to try to sell me such a story would be that the show has jumped the shark and they desperately try to continue to milk the cow after they killed all the dragons.

In that sense, the focus of a Dance should be to make the Dance work and really try to make a 7-8 season show with that alone - in combination with the necessary buildup material, of course.

Actually, you just pointed another interesting problem. Doesn t the dance have too many important characters? We saw in GOT that it is hard to introduce big families (tyrells and martels). I can t imagine a show with so many dragon riders...

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, divica said:

You are forgeting about the rebellion of the vale and maegor's second marriage and exile that happen shortly after aegon's death. All this could be used in the first season to build maegor, aenys and their families/suporters. Basically they start as allies, deal with a first rebelion and then maegor starts his problems with the faith and end the season with the exile.

I didn't forget that, I just think starting it more or less with King Aenys' reign wouldn't be that great of a story. It could still work but it wouldn't be that great since the differences between the half-brothers - and the relationship between Visenya and the Conqueror - would then not have all that much space, if those things would be addressed at all.

There is a story in Maegor slowly but surely growing more and more pissed and desperate when Ceryse fails and fails to get pregnant. There is also a story in slowly but surely building up his sadism and cruelty throughout the reign of his father, his mother lobbying for him, the tension between him and his sister-in-law and his nephews, etc. Vice versa, King Aenys' character flaws would also work better if one saw him as a princely youth for a time, and not started with him being the king. If done badly, the character would then completely suck.

I'm also not sure how long-lived such a show would be if they raced through Aenys' reign in just one season - technically that would mean Maegor would get only 1-2 seasons for his wars, and then the bulk of the series would be over already. One could make another season out of Jaehaerys' early years - the Rogar issue, Androw Farman, Elissa's story, and Aerea. But realistically this would then be the end.

If this were to be a show going 7-8 seasons one should start earlier and draw out the story some more.

29 minutes ago, divica said:

My problem with the conquest is that I don t see it as more than 2 or 3 season show and it would be kind of too straightforward. Besides the dornish war it doesn t really have enough complexity...

It could, if they actually added stuff and gave the characters depth and expanded on the politicking before and between the battles. Such a show would also not just kick of the Conquest at the beginning of the first season, but one would have some buildup.

29 minutes ago, divica said:

Actually, you just pointed another interesting problem. Doesn t the dance have too many important characters? We saw in GOT that it is hard to introduce big families (tyrells and martels). I can t imagine a show with so many dragon riders...

Not really, since most of the actually important characters are all Targaryens or Velaryons or the dragonseeds. The others are background characters at best aside from courtiers like Larys Strong, Otto Hightower, Criston Cole, and Tyland Lannister.

Borros Baratheon, Jeyne Arryn, Cregan Stark, the Tullys, Blackwoods, etc. would have to be introduced at various points and have their stints at the sun, but if the story is George's Dance then those are all supporting roles.

But, sure, the number of dragons and dragonriders could certainly be reduced. Helaena, Joffrey, Aegon the Younger, and Aegon II's twins (if they do exist in such a show) don't need dragons considering they never ride or do anything significant with them.

But then - most of the dragonriders don't do anything significant with them. They usually just show up one time to get themselves and/or their dragons killed. Thus they would not have to have much introducing to do there.

[Mwm]

9 hours ago, Ran said:

Or they could have a Dance show that runs several years, and a Conquest show, and a Jaehaerys show, and ... 

Anthology shows are pretty tricky, and mostly they fail. 

Hibberd has had the most access of any reporter to GoT's cast and crew, an artifact of the fact that EW used to be part of the TimeWarner corporation, so I feel like his declaring this is a show that's ultimately about the Dance of the Dragons has a lot more weight than Deadline (which is more of an industry gossip rag) and some more weight than THR (which claims it's Cogman's project but also not, which feels like someone is playing semantics to minimize Cogman's work on it, maybe).

 

 

Ah-I shall defer to your knowledge of the reporters credential. I'm not at all against the idea of multiple season shows for each of the Targaryean kings, just concerned about how thematically a Hollywood mind could situate certain branches of Martins material. I doubt they would tack the regency as the final season or seasons of a Dance show because they could very easily seem anticlimactic. A Jaehaerys show runs the risk of seeming boring compared to others, whereas if it were apart of the anthology show it could be seen as a sort of bridging to a climax(the Dance). Also how would they situate all these different shows in the minds of the general audience who doesn't know the timeline, would that impact which they pick first or save to last(doing the Dance before the Conquest is a HORRIBLE idea in my opinion. The scale of dragons should be built up)

That being said, I'm sure there are a lot of factors development wise I'm not taking into account, with what would be an extremely long running anthology tv show...if the locations and certain crew members have a shelf date that would need a turnover...

Also-will you a Linda be making a video discussing this announcement or more about the topics in Fire and Blood?

[The Dragon Demands]

James Hibberd is a Quisling.  

That’s why he has so much access.  I mean in season 8 he would casually admit in articles, “ I promised Benioff in 2014 I’d never tell anyone that his intended budget for the final season is unfilmable, and he plans to just strong arm HBO after season 7”....or when I found out that his advanced reports on the dvd commentary for the Sansa rape ...actively redacted out parts that would make them look bad.

not to mention Hibberd’s recent fiasco with the SDCC panel: “oops, I forgot to take fan questions at this Q&A panel!”

they bought him in season one.

nonetheless, he probably has enough insider contacts to know if they’re making Dance of the Dragons.

[The Dragon Demands]

I suspect that season one might incorporate a lot of “Rogue Prince” material to set up the Dance.

i think rook’s rest should be a season finale.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As for the ending - from a narrative point of view the ascension of Aegon III is a horrible ending.

More horrible than Bran Stark's ascension?

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the Dance as such is just a pointless war - there is no theme to it that makes it a good story about something.

Isn't a pointless war a much more multi-facetted and perhaps morally intriguing than a good-against-evil ever could be, though? 

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Isn't a pointless war a much more multi-facetted and perhaps morally intriguing than a good-against-evil ever could be, though? 

Indeed. It'd be like saying you couldn't make a good film about the Vietnam War, or the Iraq War, or the Cuban Missle Crisis, or WWI, or...

Lots of grand conflicts in history are pretty pointless in retrospect.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I suspect that season one might incorporate a lot of “Rogue Prince” material to set up the Dance.

I'm sure stuff from there is going to be incorporated - the question is whether that's going to work. I mean, to create compelling characters we have to know stuff about them. Nobody is going to care about the death of Princess Rhaenys if they know nothing about her (and if you ask George there is basically nothing to know about her since her death seems to be the only important event in her life after, perhaps, her wedding). And while we know somewhat more about Alicent Hightower, Prince Daemon, Corlys Velaryon, etc. it should be rather difficult to portray such background material on screen (unless they work with flashbacks or tell two stories more or less simultaneous (Dance and prelude to the Dance).

I mean, a rather interesting background detail is the Rhaenyra-Criston story as well as the menage à trois involving Laenor, Rhaenyra, and Harwin Strong. But how could they possibly incorporate those two plots in such a show? Those things would need time to breathe. Criston and Rhaenyra could - since they are both still alive during the show - reminiscence about roads untaken (they could have them exchange letters, or there could be a secret clandestine meeting where Criston offers Rhaenyra to bring her Aegon's or Alicent's head if she only admits that he is the only one she ever loved, etc.) but it would be much more difficult to do a similar thing with long-dead Laenor and Harwin.

6 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

i think rook’s rest should be a season finale.

That could be the finale of a first season. If they really took their time then Blood and Cheese could also work well there. I mean, the first episode of such a show could start with Helaena's visit with her dad and end with Aegon II's coronation - only introducing the Green faction and all the people in KL and the guys Otto Hightower writes letters to. To make it compelling they really have to take it slowly. And the narrative frame should be on everybody trying and hoping to prevent violence, that things do not escalate, etc. There has to be the simmering hatred between some characters, but nothing but the morons (Aegon II, Aemond) should be keen to start a war.

3 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

More horrible than Bran Stark's ascension?

I'd say yes. Bran at least has a magical talent which could allow him to become a strong king. Aegon III is an emotional cripple who, if he is portrayed correctly as a boy who does not speak most of the time, should at best inspire pity in the audience - they are not going to cheer that the most unsuited candidate for king is going to have to pick up the pieces.

Unlike the main series - where we expect that most of the child POVs are not going to die pointless deaths - we do know that three of Rhaenyra's sons and all of Aegon II's children will die (although they could ignore the fact that Jaehaera eventually died in the show). That is going to make a focus on them essentially a waste of time. And a faithfully adapted Aegon III would be a very weird 'child hero character'.

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Isn't a pointless war a much more multi-facetted and perhaps morally intriguing than a good-against-evil ever could be, though? 

But the Dance isn't multi-faceted. It is a childish civil started and waged by a dysfunctional family. It is less complex than the War of the Five Kings - which is not exactly the most tantalizing or interesting aspect of ASoIaF. The Dance has just morons like Stannis and Renly who cannot remember that they are family who shouldn't kill each other - and who even fail to realize that their own incestuous marriage policy could help them resolve their issues in peaceful manner.

I'm talking about themes here - and the Dance has no good theme to offer. It is a pointless war. The Conquest would have a theme to offer (constant warfare vs. a centralized monarchy and the prospect of lasting peace). That would mean that, within the story, the characters could talk about and justify atrocities by referring their vision of the future.

The Faith Militant Uprising would have the fight between religious and temporal authority as a theme - is the pope the guy with the ultimate authority, or the guy who wears the crown. Another theme there is that great kings do not necessarily produce great heirs. Aenys tries and fails, and Maegor should never have been allowed to survive the death of his father.

But the Dance is just the war between a woman whose justification for the war is that 'daddy wanted me to sit the throne' and a stupid youth whose sycophants say that 'tradition wants him to be the king'. That is not a good theme.

And George actually didn't give any of the great houses who take sides in the war good motivations besides 'dragons make impressive/threatening visitors' and 'siding with that pretender is more profitable to me'. The Velaryons and Hightowers aside, nobody has particular connections to the Blacks or the Greens, nor do Aegon II and Rhaenyra represent different approaches to government. They are both not exactly great royal material (although it is clear that Rhaenyra is more sympathetic than Aegon II).

Also, I cannot help but realize that George - since he wrote fake history - made the Dance deliberately an anti-climactic war, something that does not fit well into the framework of series of novels or a TV show. It does not only lack heroes, it also lacks narrative cohesion. People make bumbling mistakes and, especially, the dragon battles seem more like ironic commentaries to historical accidents and such than things one would want to read about in a tantalizing novel series or watch on screen. Jacaerys Velaryon and Vermax essentially are Viserion getting killed by magical scorpions - and didn't that look good on TV!

And as I said repeatedly - there is not going to be a grand finale. The last great events of the war are Second Tumbleton and the Storming of the Dragonpit. Everything that comes thereafter is lower scale stuff, although the Kingsroad could make a fine mundane battle.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Indeed. It'd be like saying you couldn't make a good film about the Vietnam War, or the Iraq War, or the Cuban Missle Crisis, or WWI, or...

Lots of grand conflicts in history are pretty pointless in retrospect.

But real history at least as complexity (and the advantage that it happened). It can inspire shows and novels and all - the Dance is invented history lacking in complexity.

To make it really compelling they would have to massively invent new plots and motivations for the various characters.

[The Dragon Demands]

We’re on two different wavelengths, ser:  all of these events you call silly I think were epic:  Second Tumbleton, Muddy Mess, Fishfeed, etc.