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Which Character(s) or House was ruined the most by GOT?

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Wondered whose fan favorite character or house sigil was mutilated the worst by the Game of Thrones series as a whole in your opinion? 

Edited by terloublag

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On 9/12/2019 at 9:29 PM, terloublag said:

Wondered whose fan favorite character or house sigil was mutilated the worst by the Game of Thrones series as a whole in your opinion? 

That’s a very hard question, since they all got mutilated pretty badly.

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Little Finger was the most wasted for me. I think he would have played a great role in the politics. But House Targaryen got the worst conclusion to me.

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On 9/25/2019 at 1:45 AM, Ghostlydragon said:

Stark, Lannister, Baratheon and Targaryen houses so pretty much all the major characters :D

Saying that The Starks, The Targaryens, The Lannisters and  The Baratheons were mutilated the most when Houses Martell, Greyjoy, Tyrell and Tully exist is not right tbh. 

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On 9/13/2019 at 3:29 AM, terloublag said:

Wondered whose fan favorite character or house sigil was mutilated the worst by the Game of Thrones series as a whole in your opinion? 

I tremendously enjoyed seasons 1-7 and quite a lot enjoyed season 8 as well. You are much to focused on (a) expecting books and show to be in close sync, and (b) focusing on the bad aspects of the final season rather than the great aspects of the best TV show ever so far. Game of Thrones had a substandard conlcusion, yes, that is unfortunate, but GoT is still an excellent show.

On 9/25/2019 at 12:45 AM, Ghostlydragon said:

Stark, Lannister, Baratheon and Targaryen houses so pretty much all the major characters :D

I don't see where House Stark is supposed to have been mutilated? Sansa and Arya are the main protagonists with nice and expected and book-synced endings as Queen of the North and as Adventuress into West of Westeros. Perfect ending for both of them. Bran is King and wil be King in the books as well. House Stark was not ruined at all, but got what GRRM intended for it and the storyline.

House Lannister was not ruined as well. Jamie's arc of redemption was broken, but I like that it is no Hollywoodish but closer to real-life with shortcomings. Cersei's fate was clear for a long time in the show.

House Targaryen had the percect fate. was is ruined about Daenerys being killed after turning Mad Queen? Very many expected this for quite some seasons and the ending really makes sense.

House Baratheon has not been ruined in the sense of bad writing but in the sense of ill fate. Shit happens and it surely happened to House Baratheon. Show-Stannis was different from the books, but I like the show version. 

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On 9/26/2019 at 4:58 PM, terloublag said:

Little Finger was the most wasted for me. I think he would have played a great role in the politics. But House Targaryen got the worst conclusion to me.

I think Littlefinger had a few things that were left hanging that I think would have been interesting. One is the conversation he has with Sansa in the crypts in Season 5, where he insinuates that Lyanna may not have left with Rhaegar unwillingly and as we see in the Season 7 finale, we see that Lyanna was willing. I think it could have been possible that Petyr, who might have been on the road after being sent away from Riverrun, deliberately mixed up the message to get Brandon Stark killed, and unintentionally set off Robert's Rebellion.

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Greyjoys - and possibly the Others (if the books ever finish).

But from what of the writing is released, the book Greyjoys suffered the most compared to their onscreen counterparts.

Think about it - the other houses were reasonably accurately represented. Greedy Lannisters. Stoic Starks. Righteous Targs. Broken Baratheons. Even the separatist Sandsnakes and pointlessly proud Dornish had some representation on screen. But the warmongering Greyjoys were totally muted, castrated even, in the visual version of this tale. Euron was a pathetic interpretation of his book self and Victarion was dismissed entirely. Sure, the show paid some creedence to Asha (Yara) and Theon but I doubt the books would end with Bran telling dick-less he was a good man. The Greyjoys were the most muted, by far.

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On 10/5/2019 at 7:00 AM, Kajjo said:

House Targaryen had the percect fate. was is ruined about Daenerys being killed after turning Mad Queen? Very many expected this for quite some seasons and the ending really makes sense.

Ummm, you're forgetting Jon/"Aegon Targaryen" who got screwed of anything remotely resembling a perfect fate.....

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House Martell, apparently obliterated with no consequences (i.e. their Dornish vassals ousting the bastard Ellaria and her accomplices in the murders of a reigning prince and his only heir - tolerating bastards is one thing, allowing three of them to murder a prince and his son is another).  And what happened to Oberyn's younger daughters (in the show, as in the books, he has eight daughters); did they disappear?  Unless the unnamed Dornish guy who turns up at the council in King's Landing in the last episode is a distant Martell cousin; but they don't even say who he is.

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On 10/5/2019 at 1:00 PM, Kajjo said:

I don't see where House Stark is supposed to have been mutilated? Sansa and Arya are the main protagonists with nice and expected and book-synced endings as Queen of the North and as Adventuress into West of Westeros. Perfect ending for both of them. Bran is King and wil be King in the books as well. House Stark was not ruined at all, but got what GRRM intended for it and the storyline.

House Lannister was not ruined as well. Jamie's arc of redemption was broken, but I like that it is no Hollywoodish but closer to real-life with shortcomings. Cersei's fate was clear for a long time in the show.

House Targaryen had the percect fate. was is ruined about Daenerys being killed after turning Mad Queen? Very many expected this for quite some seasons and the ending really makes sense.

House Baratheon has not been ruined in the sense of bad writing but in the sense of ill fate. Shit happens and it surely happened to House Baratheon. Show-Stannis was different from the books, but I like the show version. 

You seem to consider that the only important thing is "the fate" of the characters. That the issue that's being discussed is the adequacy of the ending points of each one. That people claiming that a character has been "ruined" is just complaining that the resolution of a particular storyline is not to their taste. And it's not the case.

When people says that a given character has been ruined, what they mean is that they have been depleted of their depth, their agency, their consistency.  Their characterization itself, in fact. The writers did not wrote them as real people, and they became mere instruments to advance the plot.

The problem is not that Dany became a Mad Queen. In fact, the story of Dany falling 'to the dark side' could be very interesting and I'm sure George will be able to do it justice. But what we saw in the show just didn't work at any level. I don't know if they are incapable of doing character development, or they believe that it's much better to dismiss it because of SHOCK effect, but they ruined Dany in the process.

It's the same with everything else. I don't care whether Jaime earns his redemption or not, ends with Cersei or not. I only ask that his actions make sense, and that any 'change of heart' is appropriately justified. If Ellaria has to murder Oberyn's brother, niece and nephew, at least give her some justification. If Stannis has to burn her daughter alive, put some effort in presenting him as someone who would do that beforehand.

On 10/5/2019 at 1:00 PM, Kajjo said:

the best TV show ever so far.

Ehhhh. Come on. You are not speaking seriously, are you?

I mean, we can all weight the strengths and weaknesses of GoT, and I can certainly see why one could claim it's a great show. But I don't see how it can be argued it's above of The Wire, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos,...

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5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

You seem to consider that the only important thing is "the fate" of the characters. That the issue that's being discussed is the adequacy of the ending points of each one. That people claiming that a character has been "ruined" is just complaining that the resolution of a particular storyline is not to their taste. And it's not the case.

When people says that a given character has been ruined, what they mean is that they have been depleted of their depth, their agency, their consistency.  Their characterization itself, in fact. The writers did not wrote them as real people, and they became mere instruments to advance the plot.

The problem is not that Dany became a Mad Queen. In fact, the story of Dany falling 'to the dark side' could be very interesting and I'm sure George will be able to do it justice. But what we saw in the show just didn't work at any level. I don't know if they are incapable of doing character development, or they believe that it's much better to dismiss it because of SHOCK effect, but they ruined Dany in the process.

It's the same with everything else. I don't care whether Jaime earns his redemption or not, ends with Cersei or not. I only ask that his actions make sense, and that any 'change of heart' is appropriately justified. If Ellaria has to murder Oberyn's brother, niece and nephew, at least give her some justification. If Stannis has to burn her daughter alive, put some effort in presenting him as someone who would do that beforehand.

Well in Stannis' case D&D just didn't like him and once they thought they hit all the necessary boxes that Stannis needed to hit up to the end of Season 4 and ASOS, they decided to make him do one of the more despicable things you could do in Westeros: have your child killed, and for what?

In the case of Dany becoming a Mad Queen, why Dany? Didn't we already have a Mad Queen who already had a large number of people incinerated in one go?

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I'd say House Tyrell is the house that got the most ruined. Canonically and even for a large part of the show they were depicted as one of the most powerful houses. Their support immediately made Renly a real player in the Game of Thrones, and their alliance with the Lannisters turned the war in their favor. Before the story they were also the sole house to defeat Robert in battle and they were able to recruit the largest army by a significant margin. 

But in season 7 it turns out that even a heavily weakened Cercei can just casually walk into the Reach and steamroll the entire region with no difficulty. Tywin spend three seasons fighting the Starks but Cersei could easily crush house Tyrell in a single episode. Golden Roses indeed. 

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1 hour ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

I'd say House Tyrell is the house that got the most ruined. Canonically and even for a large part of the show they were depicted as one of the most powerful houses. Their support immediately made Renly a real player in the Game of Thrones, and their alliance with the Lannisters turned the war in their favor. Before the story they were also the sole house to defeat Robert in battle and they were able to recruit the largest army by a significant margin. 

But in season 7 it turns out that even a heavily weakened Cercei can just casually walk into the Reach and steamroll the entire region with no difficulty. Tywin spend three seasons fighting the Starks but Cersei could easily crush house Tyrell in a single episode. Golden Roses indeed. 

I'm not quite sure how they got steamrolled like that. The Tyrells are also connected with a couple other houses, and I'm not sure why they didn't help since they were family; Olenna was a Redwyne and Mace's wife was a Hightower.

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On 2/11/2020 at 5:20 PM, The hairy bear said:

If Stannis has to burn her daughter alive, put some effort in presenting him as someone who would do that beforehand.

I cannot follow you criticism here. Stannis was presented different from the books, but he was presented consistently in the show. From the beginning on he was fallen for Melisandre, supporting her evil deeds and believing in her powers and misinterpreted visions. Stannis was weak inside and acted dumb and remote-controlled by Melisandre -- from the beginning on.

The burning of Shireen was the climax, but it was in sync with his storyline and the overall storyline of the show. The sacrifice of Shireen delayed onset of winter and bought time for mankind to fight the White Walkers.

On 2/11/2020 at 5:20 PM, The hairy bear said:

When people says that a given character has been ruined, what they mean is that they have been depleted of their depth, their agency, their consistency.  Their characterization itself, in fact.

So, how does it contradict what I have written? Which characters do you think are strongly ruined?

The controversy of Daenerys is valid. But which other characters do you complain about?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

I cannot follow you criticism here. Stannis was presented different from the books, but he was presented consistently in the show. From the beginning on he was fallen for Melisandre, supporting her evil deeds and believing in her powers and misinterpreted visions. Stannis was weak inside and acted dumb and remote-controlled by Melisandre -- from the beginning on.

The burning of Shireen was the climax, but it was in sync with his storyline and the overall storyline of the show. The sacrifice of Shireen delayed onset of winter and bought time for mankind to fight the White Walkers.

So, how does it contradict what I have written? Which characters do you think are strongly ruined?

The controversy of Daenerys is valid. But which other characters do you complain about?

 

Tyrion, for one.  He was changed from being Martin's version of Richard III, to D & D's self-insert.  He was completely incompetent as Daenerys' Hand, but ultimately failed upwards to become Bran's Hand.  D & D wanted us to think that he was wonderfully clever and wise, when the story we got onscreen for the last four episodes contradicted this.

Varys went from being ruthless spymaster for six seasons, to completely useless pacifist in Seasons 7 and 8, before turning traitor.  Like Tyrion, he achieved nothing for Daenerys, and died after shouting treason at the top of his voice.  

Bran was simply a nonentity who became King out of nowhere.  D & D had no idea what to do with his character, so they even left him out for a season. Even the actor who played Bran thought it was a joke when the script portrayed him becoming king.  Nowhere was it established that he had any of the qualifications for kingship, or why anyone would want him to be king.

Jon was built up as the adversary to the Night King, before D & D decided to "subvert expectation" by having Arya leaping on him. He was supposedly deeply in love with Daenerys, and a man of honour;  but he still chucked her under the bus by claiming to the Northern lords he had no choice but to bend the knee to her, in order to get military assistance,  when this was quite untrue.  He should never have bent the knee to her in Season 7, but once he did, he should have owned his decision.   He showed little sign of love towards her after episode 1, until he said "I love you" before driving a knife through her heart.  Nothing says "I love you" quite like shanking your girlfriend.  Jon spent Season 8 as a nothing of a man.

Daenerys?  'nuff said.

Euron is a sinister warlock pirate in the books.  Here he was a cut-price Jack Sparrow.

Cersei did little except stare out of a window, sipping wine in the last season.

Jaime admitted he cared nothing for the people of Kings Landing, making his back story pointless.

Sansa became Cersei 2.0.  According to the scripts for Season 7, she really was trying to undermine Jon's rule, and was on the point of "gutting" Arya.  

The show simply stopped caring about characterisation, in the last two seasons.  Everyone acted to serve the needs of a weak plot.  With hindsight, my opinion of the last two seasons, and even the two before that, has deteriorated sharply.  As Le Cygne put it, I succumbed to the sunk cost fallacy.  Having spent so much time following this show, I kept trying to find ways of justifying increasing absurdities, to the point where it all fell apart.

Edited by SeanF

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3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion, for one.  He was changed from being Martin's version of Richard III, to D & D's self-insert.  He was completely incompetent as Daenerys' Hand, but ultimately failed upwards to become Bran's Hand.  D & D wanted us to think that he was wonderfully clever and wise, when the story we got onscreen for the last four episodes contradicted this.

Yes, I agree. Tyrion was supposed to be smart but it didn't show. That he became hand in the end was crazy. I wouldn't call that a ruined character, but bad storytelling. I suppose, better told, the same arc could be fine.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Varys went from being ruthless spymaster for six seasons, to completely useless pacifist in Seasons 7 and 8, before turning traitor.

Yeas, another agree. His role never became really clear. 

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Bran was simply a nonentity who became King out of nowhere.  D & D had no idea what to do with his character, so they even left him out for a season

I never liked the Bran story arc. And yes, he became king out of nowhere, nonetheless not unexpectedly. The book was mising; they really didn't know how he might develop into a king.

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Jon was built up as the adversary to the Night King, before D & D decided to "subvert expectation" by having Arya leaping on him.

Well, here I don't agree. Yes, Jon was built up, but so was Arya and the deadly dagger from S1E1. This turn of events is fine with me. Jon as tragic hero is OK. I believe this will turn out very similar in the books, including him killing Daenerys. I don't see ruined characters here, but mostly bad story telling due to haste in S8.

On 2/11/2020 at 5:20 PM, The hairy bear said:

You are not speaking seriously, are you?

I mean, we can all weight the strengths and weaknesses of GoT, and I can certainly see why one could claim it's a great show. But I don't see how it can be argued it's above of The Wire, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos,.

GOT is by far the most complex and intriguing story. Too bad they messed up S8 by rush and shortness. They should have made 9 seasons and tell the story properly. GRRM should have agreed to write the essential parts. Partly his mistake to let them rape his story.

 

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6 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, I agree. Tyrion was supposed to be smart but it didn't show. That he became hand in the end was crazy. I wouldn't call that a ruined character, but bad storytelling. I suppose, better told, the same arc could be fine.

Yeas, another agree. His role never became really clear. 

I never liked the Bran story arc. And yes, he became king out of nowhere, nonetheless not unexpectedly. The book was mising; they really didn't know how he might develop into a king.

Well, here I don't agree. Yes, Jon was built up, but so was Arya and the deadly dagger from S1E1. This turn of events is fine with me. Jon as tragic hero is OK. I believe this will turn out very similar in the books, including him killing Daenerys. I don't see ruined characters here, but mostly bad story telling due to haste in S8.

GOT is by far the most complex and intriguing story. Too bad they messed up S8 by rush and shortness. They should have made 9 seasons and tell the story properly. GRRM should have agreed to write the essential parts. Partly his mistake to let them rape his story.

 

For a time.  The original material from D & D was mostly poor, after Season 4.  Complexity and intrigue were ditched in favour of spectacle and surprise.

WRT Bran, if they did not know what to do with him, they ought to have just written him out of the series.

Edited by SeanF

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On 2/19/2020 at 2:05 PM, Kajjo said:

I cannot follow you criticism here. Stannis was presented different from the books, but he was presented consistently in the show. From the beginning on he was fallen for Melisandre, supporting her evil deeds and believing in her powers and misinterpreted visions. Stannis was weak inside and acted dumb and remote-controlled by Melisandre -- from the beginning on.

The burning of Shireen was the climax, but it was in sync with his storyline and the overall storyline of the show.

Stannis was portrayed in some scenes as a religious fanatic, in others as a stubborn conservative, in others as a fierce defender of Shireen, etc. And it's fine that he has multiple facets. The problem is the how they were changed randomly, at the service of the requirements of the particular scene he was in. I one scene he was an skeptic and contradicted Melisandre, in the next one he seemed to follow her without hesitation, and in most he just was there without voicing any opinion.

The way good writers develop a character is by creating arcs. If you know (as the D&D knew) that Stannis will end burning his daughter as a sacrifice to R'hllor, you should show us how he gradually becomes more and more desperate, and throws himself  more and more at Melisandre's hands. They should have showed how Renly's death, the defeat at the Blackwater, the death of the three rival kings, etc. changed his relation with Melisandre and made him a believer.

Even failing to do that beforehand, once you are about to have a character murder her daughter, you should try to give him a sensible reason. We are talking about Stannis, who resisted the siege of Storm's End, refusing to surrender even when they had to resort to eat rats, and all that for a brother he didn't even like. Are we to believe that this man would kill his daughter at the first complication? If they want us to swallow that, they should have put a much greater effort to show how the situation was desperate. Show us how they tried for alternatives before. Show us how Stannis really is struggling with the decision. And most of all, do not insult the viewers by having Ramsay cause this supposedly inescapable situation with only "20 good men".

I don't know if you are aware that Stephen Dillane agrees that the character of Stannis was awfully written. He had harsh criticism for D&D after leaving the show, complaining that he could make no sense of what was written for him. He also says that no one was giving him directions on the character, and he admits he was lucky that Liam Cunningham- Davos (a fan of the books) was there to explain him how was Stannis supposed to behave at any time. Which is ironic, because D&D had actually asked to the actors not to read the books.

 

On 2/19/2020 at 2:05 PM, Kajjo said:

So, how does it contradict what I have written? Which characters do you think are strongly ruined?

The controversy of Daenerys is valid. But which other characters do you complain about?

The list of the characters I do not complain about would be shorter.

Most main characters have been ruined at one point or another. Dany, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Robb, Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion,...

Edited by The hairy bear

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