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A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)


Crazydog7

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Halfway through and enjoying it, but depiction of an industrial revolution is a bit weird. When the industrial revolution was going on, business owners weren't buying, say, a spinning wheel to do the work of 10 weavers and putting 9 of them out of work (unless they were idiots); they bought 10 spinning wheels instead and increased their profit by tenfold. The unemployment accompanying the early onset of the industrial revolution was actually caused by the market not generating enough demand and it taking a good 30-50 years for the demand to start outstripping the supply. But in A Little Hatred we're constantly told that there is a hungry demand for more coal, more textiles, more metals, more weapons, more everything. The demand problem isn't there, so the unemployment crisis that is threatening the revolution shouldn't really exist.

Apart from that the book is great so far, but that element felt a bit odd, perhaps a result of the decision to have the industrial revolution happening only 30 years after the original books rather than 200 (which would make a bit more sense), so everything is mega-compressed compared to real history.

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30 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Halfway through and enjoying it, but depiction of an industrial revolution is a bit weird. When the industrial revolution was going on, business owners weren't buying, say, a spinning wheel to do the work of 10 weavers and putting 9 of them out of work (unless they were idiots); they bought 10 spinning wheels instead and increased their profit by tenfold. The unemployment accompanying the early onset of the industrial revolution was actually caused by the market not generating enough demand and it taking a good 30-50 years for the demand to start outstripping the supply. But in A Little Hatred we're constantly told that there is a hungry demand for more coal, more textiles, more metals, more weapons, more everything. The demand problem isn't there, so the unemployment crisis that is threatening the revolution shouldn't really exist.

Apart from that the book is great so far, but that element felt a bit odd, perhaps a result of the decision to have the industrial revolution happening only 30 years after the original books rather than 200 (which would make a bit more sense), so everything is mega-compressed compared to real history.

The huge influx of refugees would be a factor that both causes unemployment, and drives up prices.

I expect too that in the early years of the industrial revolution in the Union, you'd have wild booms, followed by very sharp recessions, which would cause cyclical unemployment.

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Caved and decided to knock this out before I finished my re-read. Enjoyed all the new POVs. Rikke was my favorite 

-Part two had some immense chapters. The Little People and the Battle of Red Hill were both epic

-Good Times was such a fun chapter

-Leo is deeply in the closet

-Hearing that Ferro killed Uthman and fought The Prophet was a fist pump moment

-Zuri and her brothers seem to be eaters. Could she be the East Wind?

-Who defeated Clover in the circle?

-Jezals presence in the book was sad. Then it had to end like that. 

-Hope we see Monza and Shenkt in the future

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3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Halfway through and enjoying it, but depiction of an industrial revolution is a bit weird. When the industrial revolution was going on, business owners weren't buying, say, a spinning wheel to do the work of 10 weavers and putting 9 of them out of work (unless they were idiots); they bought 10 spinning wheels instead and increased their profit by tenfold. The unemployment accompanying the early onset of the industrial revolution was actually caused by the market not generating enough demand and it taking a good 30-50 years for the demand to start outstripping the supply. But in A Little Hatred we're constantly told that there is a hungry demand for more coal, more textiles, more metals, more weapons, more everything. The demand problem isn't there, so the unemployment crisis that is threatening the revolution shouldn't really exist.

Apart from that the book is great so far, but that element felt a bit odd, perhaps a result of the decision to have the industrial revolution happening only 30 years after the original books rather than 200 (which would make a bit more sense), so everything is mega-compressed compared to real history.

Business owners wouldn't be buying spinning wheels at all, they'd be buying spinning jennies or spinning mules, which were the automated versions that made the spinning wheels redundant...

There were all kinds of complex interactions between different kinds of technologies that would cause huge shifts in the labour market. So automated spinning, for example, created a lot of jobs minding the spinning machines but destroyed cottage industry hand-spinning which had been a big earner for rural families. People often went from doing various different kinds of work on small holdings to doing one specific task in an urban setting, at which they were vastly more efficient. Indeed a lot of rural poor became vastly richer overnight, and could afford all kinds of stuff they never dreamed of before, so there was a demand for mass produced fabrics, crockery, cutlery, lamps, books, you name it - stuff that had been luxuries for the nobility became necessaries for the gentry and then available to everyone within a century. But living in cities had downsides, of course.

'Demand' was massively lumpy and unevenly distributed under these circumstances, because processes become automated at different times. You can only increase your profit tenfold from increasing production tenfold if you have the market, and you wouldn't right away, because when for example spinning was first automated, weaving still had to be done by hand. The result was that yarn became incredibly cheap overnight, and hand weavers were suddenly in immense demand, so they were having a great time. Then ten years later the power looms put all of them out of business, the price of cloth plummeted, and sewers, dressmakers and dyers had a purple period. The rapid changes made the markets incredibly wild as well, so there would be huge booms followed by giant slumps in demand that no one really understood because the economic model was so new, accompanied by mass unemployment which would itself cause slumps in demand.  But I digress...

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14 hours ago, Joe Abercrombie said:

Business owners wouldn't be buying spinning wheels at all, they'd be buying spinning jennies or spinning mules, which were the automated versions that made the spinning wheels redundant...

There were all kinds of complex interactions between different kinds of technologies that would cause huge shifts in the labour market. So automated spinning, for example, created a lot of jobs minding the spinning machines but destroyed cottage industry hand-spinning which had been a big earner for rural families. People often went from doing various different kinds of work on small holdings to doing one specific task in an urban setting, at which they were vastly more efficient. Indeed a lot of rural poor became vastly richer overnight, and could afford all kinds of stuff they never dreamed of before, so there was a demand for mass produced fabrics, crockery, cutlery, lamps, books, you name it - stuff that had been luxuries for the nobility became necessaries for the gentry and then available to everyone within a century. But living in cities had downsides, of course.

'Demand' was massively lumpy and unevenly distributed under these circumstances, because processes become automated at different times. You can only increase your profit tenfold from increasing production tenfold if you have the market, and you wouldn't right away, because when for example spinning was first automated, weaving still had to be done by hand. The result was that yarn became incredibly cheap overnight, and hand weavers were suddenly in immense demand, so they were having a great time. Then ten years later the power looms put all of them out of business, the price of cloth plummeted, and sewers, dressmakers and dyers had a purple period. The rapid changes made the markets incredibly wild as well, so there would be huge booms followed by giant slumps in demand that no one really understood because the economic model was so new, accompanied by mass unemployment which would itself cause slumps in demand.  But I digress...

I think the Industrial Revolution is perhaps too rapid.  100 years of economic development takes place over 30 years (in the modern world, an industrial revolution can take place very rapidly, in East Asia, for example, but that would be done by borrowing existing technology and know-how).

But, in general, I find that part of the plot fascinating.  I really enjoy seeing economic issues addressed in fantasy, which is unusual.  I also like the way that while you pull no punches in describing the injustices in Valbeck, you don't make all the workers into saints, nor all the better off into villains.

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Book 1: A Little Hatred by Joe Abercrombie

The fires of industry are smouldering. The Union, the great federation of kingdoms centred on the island of Midderland and the city of Adua, is industrialising and modernising at a frightening rate. Great factory districts, squealing with machinery, now sprawl for miles as they pump out vast quantities of goods. It's a brave new world, one in which the little person is at risk of being crushed. Seething discontent at joblessness and the new order threatens to erupt into outright rebellion. As the Union tries to strangle the nascent revolution in its crib, another crisis erupts in the North when the armies of Scale Ironhand invade the Protectorate, controlled by the Union's allies.

As war and revolution threaten the Union on every front, the fate of the Circle of the World falls upon a handful of unlikely figures: Savine dan Glokta, the daughter of the royal inquisitor and a shrewd investor; Crown Prince Orso, a wastrel and drunkard; Vick, a young woman in the Breakers, the would-be working class revolutionaries; Gunnar Broad, a military veteran trying to get his life back; Stour Nightfall, a Northern warrior with a ridiculous name and evil ambition; Rikke, daughter of the Dogman, blessed (or cursed) with the magic of foresight; and Leo dan Brock, the Young Lion, a brave and reckless warrior who cannot see the big picture.

It's been - somewhat startlingly - seven years since Joe Abercrombie last visited the world of his First Law saga with Red Country. Since then he's been moonlighting in YA (with the Shattered Sea trilogy in 2014-15) and short fiction (with the Sharp Ends collection in 2016), but his return to the First Law world with not just a novel, but a full trilogy (entitled The Age of Madness) is welcome news.

A Little Hatred is very much just what most readers are expecting from an Abercrombie novel. It's fast-paced, violent, lusty and intelligent. Not keen on resting on his laurels, the novel also sees Abercrombie moving into new territory with a lot of socio-economic musings. A Little Hatred is a novel about a world in turmoil, not just from war or religious schisms but from its own Industrial Revolution. This isn't totally new ground for fantasy, with Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels and China Mieville's Bas-Lag series both delving into industrial chaos, revolutions and modernisation, but it's still an under-explored idea for the genre.

The book is also concerned with the next generation, the children of great characters growing up in the shadow of their famed parents, whilst those parents face the truth that the great exploits of their youth haven't led to long-lasting peace and happiness. The North and the Union are still at each other's throats over the North's conquest of Angland and the Protectorate, whilst (in the wake of the events of Best Served Cold) the Union and Styria have fought three bloody wars to no satisfactory outcome. Even the collapse of the Gurkish Empire, removing a key threat to the Union's southern flank, has caused its own problems as hordes of refugees flee to Midderland, sparking a wave of racist xenophobia. A Little Hatred is about a world in change, not from the typical epic fantasy stand-bys of ravening monsters and evil sorcerers, but from the changing page of history itself.

Characterisation is a key strength of Abercrombie's and he gets to exercise that skill with aplomb here. Most of the protagonists are complicated people, with admirable and detestable traits, and it's to Abercrombie's credit that he makes them all interesting and compelling, even when you want to smack them for making dumb decisions. Focusing on new characters is a good idea, as it makes the book an easier entry point for new readers. The book is certainly improved if you've read the seven previous First Law books (The Blade Itself, Before They Are Hanged, Last Argument of Kings, Best Served Cold, The Heroes, Red Country and Sharp Ends), but they are not strictly necessary given that the novel does a good job of establishing the situation and characters.

The book is excellently paced. Abercrombie's never written huge doorstoppers, but some of his previous books have been quite big. At just over 400 pages in hardcover, A Little Hatred is focused, fast-paced and furious, taking in revolutions, battles, betrayals, stabbings, flights through the countryside and political intrigue at the highest levels, with a reasonably large cast. The pace never flags and leaves the reader eager for more.

If there are weaknesses, they are minor. The Union's industrial revolution is impressively vivid and impeccably-researched, but some may feel that it's also hugely unrealistic, given that in the First Law series the world was more like a 15th century late medieval/early renaissance setting. It jumping forwards about 300 years of technological development in less than 30 years feels a little like a contrivance so the author can have fan-favourite characters still showing up rather than dealing with a whole new generation. However, this bug is also something of a feature: as the novel ends, it becomes clear that this massive, rapid progress may be explained by other means, which opens more questions for the sequels.

As it stands, A Little Hatred (****½) is vintage Abercrombie, being smart, funny, brutal and compelling reading. It is available now in the UK and USA. The second book in the series, The Trouble with Peace, will be released in 2020.

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7 hours ago, SeanF said:

But, in general, I find that part of the plot fascinating.  I really enjoy seeing economic issues addressed in fantasy, which is unusual. 

Have you read Abraham’s Dagger and Coin?

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Just finished it. An amazing book. Can't wait to read the next installments.

What I loved

  • As always, Joe excels at writing really enjoyable, well-rounded characters. I immediately fell in love with Orso, and the moment he realizes he is not as useless as he believes himself to be, it'll be memorable. Savine is a character I love to despise. Completely unredeemable as his adoptive father, but fun to read. Vick is a really sad person. All of them are really interesting.
  • The pace was great. Much better than The Blade Itself, which would be the logical comparison.
  • The feeling that the world is progressing, both in terms of technology and in terms of geopolitics, is refreshing.

What I didn't like

  • While I loved all the characters, perhaps the cast wasn't as varied as in previous installments. There was an overdose of promising youths trying to find their place in the world and escaping the shadow of their parents. It didn't help that some of them felt like newer versions of previous ones. Jonas Clover seems to be a combination of Craw+Tunny. Gunnar Broad was Logen with a family. Vick was a female version of Glokta...
  • A little bit more of world-building wouldn't hurt, IMO. It seems as if Joe limits its creation strictly to the requirements of the plot. It would be nice if there were at least another conspiring lord besides the three that contested for the throne in LAOK, other magis than the four we met in the original trilogy, or other Union kings besides Harod and Castamir. Throwing away the names of some more members of the Closed Council or locations in Adua would also help to flesh out the setting a bit.
  • As someone has mentioned upthread, I don't buy that Orso and Savine are able to keep a relationship secret from the Inquisition, and I don't buy that Finree and the Dogman don't care that their kids are having sex.
  • At the first Clover chapter, Black Clader comes to see him accompanied by "a black-haired lad of maybe twelve or thirteen years old with a cleft top lip and watchful eyes". The boy is insightful and the scene is cut before Clover is able to identify him. It should be assumed that this boy will end being someone important, but if so, I don't think that his introduction has been well done.

Errors?

  • ALH takes place from spring to winter of 604, established by Orso being 27 (he was conceived in LAOK, 576). I seem to recall that Joe confirmed this date somewhere. But in ALH Isern-I-Phail says both that she was 10 during the battle of the High Places (which is fine) and that she has seen thirty-six winters (it should be 38).
  • When Leo and Rikke arrive at Adua by ship and are escorted by an honor guard to the Agriont, Bayaz mentions that they pass through the Three Farms. This route makes no sense, since LAOK established that the docks are in the central district, and that the Middleway goes straight to the Agriont. The Three Farms is supposed to be a peripheral neighborhood in the south-west.
  • Zacharus is defined in the appendix as "the fourth of the Magi", but in TBI Malacus said that Zacharus was "the fifth of Juvens' twelve".

Random thoughts

  • Missing characters in the Adua/North area that I'd like to hear about in the following books: Countess Shalere (is she still around?), Curnden Craw, Jolly Yon, Inquisitor Lorsen, Colonel Felnigg.
  • We hear of Lord Marshall Brint and a Lord Marshall Rucksted, meaning that the two Lord Marshall seats in the Closed Council are accounted for. That would mean that Mitterick is no longer a Lord Marshall. I'd like to now what happened with him too.
  • Where are the rest of the Magi? In the Original Trilogy we heard that two died in the assault to the House of the Maker, and Yulwei was trapped there, leaving nine. We also heard that Leru is "hiding under some stone" and Karnault "sailed away across the wide ocean". We know about Bayaz, Khalul, Canweil and Zacharus. But the absence of the other three seems strange to me.
  • I love the indirect references to Ferro as a demon. I hope that Khalul hasn't been killed off-scene, though. It would feel weird to have a book puting the focus on yet another wave of social conflicts, border wars and dynastics struggle when the real interesting things are happening in South. One of the twelve being murdered would be much more huge than e
  • What was the Closed Council/Glokta thinking when they replaced Finree with Leo as Lord Governor in the middle of a war? It's a very weird move that could have had disastrous consequences.
  • Even though Monza has won three wars against the Union and crowned her son Jappo as King of Styria, it seems that she is far from controlling of all it. THe Union still owns Westport, one of Jezal daughters is married to the Chancellor of Sipani. The countess of Affoia is also considered as a potential bride for Orso, and in the past two years Gunnar has successfully participated in the taking of five cities including Musselia. It would seem that Jappo is King of Styria only in name.
  • By the way, does Shivers realize or suspects that he could be the King of Styria's father? I'd like to see some hint in this regard.
  • If Stour honors his word and joins Leo to fight common enemies and make a name, it seems that attacking Styria would be the most logical target. It could be an excuse for Shivers to return there and face his past.
  • Black Calder must be really desperate if the best man he could find to put his son in the right path was Clover. Perhaps when his hidden past is clarified we will understand why he was chosen, but his carelessness and unreliability are plain to see.
  • I also think that Zuri is an eater. Her brothers too, of course.
  • Could Hildi be Orso's daughter? She is blond, and came from a brothel. It would require Orso to have sired at 13 or 14, and he should have thought about it at some time, so probably she isn't. But at least it's something that the people in Adua would be spreading rumors about.

 

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38 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

 

  • If Stour honors his word and joins Leo to fight common enemies and make a name, it seems that attacking Styria would be the most logical target. It could be an excuse for Shivers to return there and face his past.

Or... the Union proper.

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Just finished it an hour ago and completely loved it. I particularly adored Orso's chapters and I think he's a great character. Savine is a close second. They both feel lived in. I hate it when this happens, but damn it, I'm rooting for that incestuous pair to come out on top :D 

Clover was also outstanding. I love the fact that we still haven't seen him fight, but that he has proven to be quite the killer regardless. I knew he was going to off Magweer sooner or later, but I thought that would be the moment he would demonstrate his sword skill. The bolt to the throat was a delightful surprise. 

I also really admire the way the book handles old characters. It's interesting to see that some of them died before the start of the book, others return but die suddenly, others are there but irrelevant and others are there and still very much relevant or gained new relevance. I really like that, it makes the world as a whole seem richer and it makes for some unpredictable reading. I'm a huge fan of for example the Bloody Nine, but I'm not sure whether I even want to see him again to be reduced to something as pathetic as Cosca or to be dispacthed as unceremoniously quick as Wonderful or Jezal. 

 

Speculation on some of the visions:

The owl is I think the most obvious loose thread. I'd like it more if it was someone we have seen already but a few options:

  • Clover
  • Rikke (someone already made the connection with wisdom)
  • Isern/Crumac -i-phail (mad as owls)
  • Black Calder's mysterious lad
  • one of the trio of nobles Heugen, Isher and the other name I forge

Right now I don't think there is much we can speculate on. There is nothing really telltale, the only textual clue is pointed at Crumac with the mad-as-owls comment, but it is a bit thin. 

I'm also very curious about the void Rikke saw. Unfortunately I don't have access to all the texts of her visions (to lazy to flip through my pages), but I wonder whether we'll see some magic return one day and that is the expression of the void. Juvens 'knowledge is power' might prove to be a clue to the brothers (or one of them) possible returning. Don't think it is very likely but who knows. 

 

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:
  • At the first Clover chapter, Black Clader comes to see him accompanied by "a black-haired lad of maybe twelve or thirteen years old with a cleft top lip and watchful eyes". The boy is insightful and the scene is cut before Clover is able to identify him. It should be assumed that this boy will end being someone important, but if so, I don't think that his introduction has been well done.

 

Glad you brought this up, I also assumed this lad was someone of note... But who, that's the question now isn't it?

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:
  • I also think that Zuri is an eater. His brothers too, of course

This seems a popular theory but I don't know. An agent of Khalul sure, but an Eater? I'd like to get some textual clues on that apart from the snapping of her teeth. Interesting observation from @Mark Antony that she might be East of Wind, although I don't know if we got any clues on her.

On 9/21/2019 at 4:06 PM, Joe Abercrombie said:

September 2020...

:bowdown:I can't express how pleased I am to know that there is at least one series I can look forward to on a regular basis :)

On 9/15/2019 at 2:53 AM, Rhom said:

Sun (Union) devoured by Wolf (Stour) devoured by Lion (Leo dan Brock) by lamb (Finree) by owl... remains to be seen, but I can’t imagine it will take long to get that one.

Lamb is definitely Orso if the vision at the end is too be believed. 

On 9/16/2019 at 11:21 PM, Rhom said:

Still early, so I could be proven wrong but I’m thinking Leo is gay and doesn’t know it.  (Or maybe he does... but I’m still pretty sure he’s gay.)

The man is so deep in the closet he got named for Aslan.

On 9/17/2019 at 4:09 PM, Gaston de Foix said:

One interesting little revelation: 

1. Khalul is alive.  Bayaz expressly says he "engineered a suspension of hostilities with a troublesome brother in the South...two siblings in the West chose to become...difficult." So conflict with Zacharius and Cawneil is potentially on the cards, but it looks like Khalul has been tamed.  No word on Ferro though. 

 

I don't know whether engineered means truce. I think it more than likely means that Bayaz had a hand in pointing Ferro in The Prophet's general direction. Whether Khalul is truly dead remains to be seen though, perhaps he just changed tack. 

I do like how the others are also starting to become more troublesome. I wonder whether any of the other named magi will ever return to have an influence on the story.

On 9/17/2019 at 9:59 PM, red snow said:

The two fencing chapters made me realise how much I've missed Jezal and Glokta. I know it's early days in the story but I was really happy that the two of them have good relationships with their kids. I beamed when Sevine loved the fact she could make her dad smile. I was really worried going into the book that Jezal and Glokta would have miserable lives because that seems to be the grimdark way but it's a nice change for them to at least have their kids

I wonder how the fencing revelation (Orso actually being very good) will play into it all later. At first I thought he might participate in a contest for some as yet to be revealed reason, but now that he's king that seems unlikely.

On 9/18/2019 at 9:41 PM, red snow said:

That was funny. I like how stour nightfall is a bit of a "darkstar" in trying too hard to be awesome.

He reminded me a lot of Black Dow in the First Trilogy. Only without the self-awareness Black Dow had learned by the time of The Heroes.

On 9/19/2019 at 6:22 AM, A True Kaniggit said:

They should’ve added to his name. 

Cold Clover. 

One of the biggest mysteries for me is definitely whom he fought against in the circle before and what his old name was. Not sure about the relevance of the later (I'm a bit confused whether his real name is Jonas Steepfield and that before he became Steepfield Clover there was another Name or that Steepfield was his Name and he then transitioned to Jonas), but pretty sure the former will prove to be very significant indeed. 

I was sure it was Shivers at first, especially when they got introduced, but when it turned out it wasn't I was a bit at a loss. The only harder warriors I can think of are the Bloody Nine and Bremer dan Gorst, but to place them in Clover's vicinity and let them partake in a duel seems odd. 

I wonder whether his old name was owl related...

On 9/19/2019 at 4:48 PM, Rhom said:

I do think it likely that it was Sulfur or perhaps Bayaz himself.  Rikke's vision was of a bald weaver with a bottomless purse wasn't it?  So he at least had the backing of Valint and Balk. 

Bingo, definitely Bayaz. I'd wager good money on it. 

 

What I do wonder is what his plan is this time around. I don't think it's as straightforward as last time when Sulfur stirred up that peasant revolt. Quite frankly I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't (partly) mean for it to reflect badly on Orso. With the handsome but idiotic Young Lion on the one hand and a rich bastard daugther of the King on the other hand he's quite capable of raising up a good figure head instead if he needed it. 

Perhaps this business with the labor movement is also about creating an enemy to replace Khalul. The Union needs an enemy to remain on edge. Otherwise they might become to introspective and discover the cancer lurking within.

On 9/19/2019 at 10:33 PM, Crazydog7 said:

And in a rare moment of (almost) empathy from Bayaz he was the only one that took Rikke at her word when she spoke of the long eye. 

To be fair, he more than anyone knows that this magic shit is real... and he's probably already thinking of ways to bending that gift to his advantage ;) 

On 9/20/2019 at 2:58 PM, BigFatCoward said:

Was relieved when it turned out to be Scale and not Dogman, the only decent person from the first trilogy still alive.

 

the only decent person from the first trilogy period I'd almost say :P

On 9/20/2019 at 9:09 PM, Gaston de Foix said:

We never really get an answer to that question. 

I think it will be relevant some day. Perhaps that is why magic is now so difficult for them. The more they age, the more effort they have to divert in keeping themselves alive and the less spare magic there is left for great works.

 

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3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:
  • Could Hildi be Orso's daughter? She is blond, and came from a brothel. It would require Orso to have sired at 13 or 14, and he should have thought about it at some time, so probably she isn't. But at least it's something that the people in Adua would be spreading rumors about.

 

I don’t see that as lessening the likelihood of Hildi being Orso’s bastard. I imagine you’re a teenage boy  who happens to be the heir to the most powerful empires in the world.   I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Orso had sired bastard during this time in his life. I mean if he desired to let out steam at a local whorehouse it’s really doubtful anyone would tell him no or that he’d put much thought about getting a girl pregnant than the typical horny teenager. 

Though I would say Hildi has no greater chance at being Orso’s daughter than any other whore’s bastard.

I mean blond hair isn’t exactly uncommon.

Though I do find it unlikely Orso doesn’t have a couple bastards running around. He’s not exactly picky in choice of company. 

 

3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:
  • Even though Monza has won three wars against the Union and crowned her son Jappo as King of Styria, it seems that she is far from controlling of all it. THe Union still owns Westport, one of Jezal daughters is married to the Chancellor of Sipani. The countess of Affoia is also considered as a potential bride for Orso, and in the past two years Gunnar has successfully participated in the taking of five cities including Musselia. It would seem that Jappo is King of Styria only in name.
  • By the way, does Shivers realize or suspects that he could be the King of Styria's father? I'd like to see some hint in this regard.

I wonder how different  Monza’s son is to Orso. Like when he’s first shown in Sharp ends I can’t help but think even as child he’s more easily able to get his subjects to like him than Orso.

Even though the guy’s certainly been king officially for years now discussion of how to deal with Stryia has always placed Monza as being in control of it and the one the union would have to face in battle.

Also, I wonder if Monza mellowed out. Glocka jokes if Brock and Monza had faced each other in battle each would realize the pointless of the fighting and proceed to discuss how they could do something that could actually benefit them.

On 9/21/2019 at 9:33 AM, Mark Antony said:

Hope we see Monza and Shenkt in the future

I’m curious to see how much control Shenkt has pushed Styria to be more offensive towards the Union. Monza herself has made clear she herself would wage war against it if provoked because she genuinely does value the lives of her people. Shenkt has shown to see Styria as merely a tool to hurt his former master.

 

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On 9/17/2019 at 9:09 AM, Gaston de Foix said:

3. What character growth did Savine demonstrate? Maybe the point was that she didn't/couldn't.  But you would think her experience would lead her to advocate for a more liberal policy towards the Breakers/Burners.  Nope: her lesson was to be more ruthless.  She and Stour Nightfall have much in common. 

Well, so far we've only seen her being more ruthless towards other rich people. I would reserve judgment on her attitude towards the working class going forward until after we actually see her do anything in the regard.

On 9/18/2019 at 11:21 AM, BigFatCoward said:

Glokta must be slipping if he doesn't know his daughter is banging her brother. 

Give the man a break. Running the Inquisition and the Union would strain the capabilities of even the most capable. Something is bound to fall through the cracks.

On 9/19/2019 at 10:43 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Before this uprising she proposed improving the living conditions of the children under her employ if only a little. Post-uprising we don’t see her try to make any sort of change within her businesses. 

Post-Valveck we only see her engage in the one business activity. And it didn't involve the workers.

Too little evidence yet to form a conclusion. 

On 9/21/2019 at 11:33 AM, Mark Antony said:

-Leo is deeply in the closet

Might sound like I'm arguing semantics, but can we truly said that a man is in the closet when he himself doesn't seem to realize that he is gay (or at least bi)?

BTW, after his last scene with Savine, it also seems to me that Freud would have a field day with that guy.

7 hours ago, The hairy bear said:
  • When Leo and Rikke arrive at Adua by ship and are escorted by an honor guard to the Agriont, Bayaz mentions that they pass through the Three Farms. This route makes no sense, since LAOK established that the docks are in the central district, and that the Middleway goes straight to the Agriont. The Three Farms is supposed to be a peripheral neighborhood in the south-west.

The city has seen a lot of change in the past three decades. I would almost expect the city to have developed additional docks to handle the increased industrial production.

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Even though Monza has won three wars against the Union and crowned her son Jappo as King of Styria, it seems that she is far from controlling of all it. THe Union still owns Westport, one of Jezal daughters is married to the Chancellor of Sipani. The countess of Affoia is also considered as a potential bride for Orso, and in the past two years Gunnar has successfully participated in the taking of five cities including Musselia. It would seem that Jappo is King of Styria only in name.

Taking and keeping are very different things when it comes to cities. 

The impression I got was that the pattern of the Union-Styrian Wars was:

  1. Union invades and grabs up territory.
  2. Monza counterattacks and gets it back.
  3. Costly stalemate.
  4. Union withdraws.
  5. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I find it telling that all the Styrian cities mentioned as being independent of Jappo's control, i.e. Westport, Sipani and Affoia, are port cities in the southern coast of the island/continent. They probably survive because they can be easoly supplied and reinforced by ship from the Union.

The only place mentioned that doesn't fit this pattern is Musselia, and all of Broad's recollections point to the city being taken and brutally sacked, not conquered permanently. 

Given that Musselia is so close to Tallins, I'm thinking in the last war the Union tried for a direct assault against the the Grand Duchy of Tallins and the heart of Jappo's power.

And they failed. Miserably.

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  • By the way, does Shivers realize or suspects that he could be the King of Styria's father? I'd like to see some hint in this regard.

He's probably done the math, but absent any mention of Styria in his presence that might get a reaction, we're unlikely to find out his feelings on the matter.

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  • Black Calder must be really desperate if the best man he could find to put his son in the right path was Clover. Perhaps when his hidden past is clarified we will understand why he was chosen, but his carelessness and unreliability are plain to see.

Right path is relative. Calder wanted some Stour to learn some fucking caution and self-preservation. 

Say one thing about Jonas Clover, say that he knows how to keep himself alive.

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