A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

This is a good analysis.  Maybe Bayaz is experimenting with a French revolution leading to a Napoleon like figure emerging to lead the Union.  If so, I would put Victarine as a likely candidate.  But such an individual is unlikely to accept Bayaz as the power behind the throne.  Even in Styria, Shenkt advises Murcatto but does not rule through her. 

Perhaps even a Soviet-style revolution would suit Bayaz, if it led to the creation of a very powerful military/industrial complex, and so long as he remained the man behind the man.

[A True Kaniggit]

Another thing that I noticed and liked, was how the legend of Logen Ninefingers has changed over the years.  

In The Heroes the very mention of his name was enough to make people shit themselves. He was remembered with disgust, hate, and fear by those who actually knew him (barring Jezal). 

But it seems the younger generation who didn’t witness his atrocities first hand now idolize him. 

[Ninefingers]

14 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

Absolutely but that's exactly why I don't think it's Bayaz. It so obviously looks like Bayaz it has to be misdirection. All the other books have twists and turns and subversion of the expected. To put him so clearly and obviously as the Weaver in a prophecy seems odd. It wasn't exactly subtle, in this genre prophecies are picked apart. 

I don't think the end game will be this obvious from the start.

I hear you, but I'm still going to disagree. The whole "wolf is eaten by the lion is eaten by the lamb" thing is pretty on the nose. I don't think Abercrombie is trying to bury this too deep. Keeping it accessible to the casual reader and all that.

And really, the fact that there's several guesses for the Weaver in the early pages of this thread suggests to me that he's struck a decent balance.

 

[Gaston de Foix]

49 minutes ago, Ninefingers said:

I hear you, but I'm still going to disagree. The whole "wolf is eaten by the lion is eaten by the lamb" thing is pretty on the nose. I don't think Abercrombie is trying to bury this too deep. Keeping it accessible to the casual reader and all that.

And really, the fact that there's several guesses for the Weaver in the early pages of this thread suggests to me that he's struck a decent balance.

 

I think there are elements of both accessibility and misdirection.  We already saw it in part in Rikke's misinterpretation of her own vision as foreseeing her father's death when it was Jezal (and maybe Scale). 

I don't think we are Joe's ideal readers, or indeed we should be.  Writing to keep a general audience engaged is much more important for the commercial viability of his books.  Of course easter eggs for the cognoscenti are always appreciated... 

[Zorral]

I began reading last night.

Woo, a whole lotta characters here.

Kinda a wild mix, or so it seems so far, blended out of the lives of both Edward I and Edward III, Shakespeare's Prince Hal plays, A Tale of Two Cities and some other works that immediately came to mind.  But I've only gotten through the first 75 pages, not even meeting all the characters quite yet, so maybe I'll see things differently later.

It's a different world all right, from the previous three.

 

[The hairy bear]

On 9/22/2019 at 9:22 PM, Rhom said:

Or... the Union proper.

I guess it could be that Leo and Stour fight war against the Union. I hadn't considered this possibility, tbh. However, Isn't Angland mainly populated by people from Midderland? They may be a little discontent towards the Union right now, but not sure if it would be to the point of joining their natural enemies to fight their brothers. So, while I could see Leo doing that, I don't see Angland following him (starting with his own mother).

On 9/19/2019 at 6:10 PM, Gaston de Foix said:

Any thoughts on Rikke's vision of an old woman whose head was stitched together with gold wire?

Someone at Reddit suggests that perhaps it's meant to be Monza. After Orso throws her from Montezarno, Shenkt heals her and mentions that he has mended the broken pieces of her skull with golden coins.

Seems a good bet.

18 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I don’t get why Ardee and Glotka think it’s so important that Orso not find out that Savine is his sister. What do they think he’d do with the information? He’d probably do what Savine did, be disgusted at the incest, and decide it’s best to keep it a secret that his father has an older bastard.

Probably Ardee and Glokta see Orso as most of Adua does, some completely unreliable dunce, that shouldn't be trusted with anything.

18 hours ago, unJon said:

That’s the point. The union isn’t what Bayaz wants for its own sake. The union was just the best structure to keep Bayaz in power as he liked. But times are changing, as is the theme in this book. The Union is not longer a better power structure than his bank Valint. And the union is bankrupt owing so much money to the bank. So Bayaz will ride the wave of populism backed by capitalism to overthrow the union and put himself into a safer power structure by owning the bank. 

Don’t fight progress. Ride progress to better power. 

The odd think here is that Valint&Balk office in Valbeck was one of the first things that the revolutionaries burned. It seems that the bankers are not seen by the population as a neutral agent, but as the financiers of the explotation of the workers.

If Bayaz is the Weaver (and I still think it's likely) one would think that he would be financing the revolt through his bank. And perhaps he is. But then, why was its office burnt?

[Werthead]

7 hours ago, Ninefingers said:

I hear you, but I'm still going to disagree. The whole "wolf is eaten by the lion is eaten by the lamb" thing is pretty on the nose. I don't think Abercrombie is trying to bury this too deep. Keeping it accessible to the casual reader and all that.

And really, the fact that there's several guesses for the Weaver in the early pages of this thread suggests to me that he's struck a decent balance.

I was wondering if Bayaz is somehow manipulating Rikke, sending her the visions somehow. The on-the-nose nature of the visions and the fact he really didn't give a toss about what she saw about him made me think there was some connection there.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 9/24/2019 at 3:07 PM, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

Yes I didn't say anything about Calder putting the boy forward. Calder is crystal clear Stour is the future of the North, but that doesn't stop him having a bastard, which knowing his character I think is likely or him hiding the boy from the world which knowing Calder's past is also likely. 

None of this of course could stop the boy maybe being important in the future and he seemed to warrant an introduction of sorts. 

Oh I’m not arguing there’s no way for the boy to be someone whose important bastard. I just doubt he is Calder’s bastard.

Honestly, really based on no hard evidence I suspect the boy is in some way magical. The Union and dogman has their Rikke mayhaps the boy is a counterance. But again this is just vague suspicion. 

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

27 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh I’m not arguing there’s no way for the boy to be someone whose important bastard. I just doubt he is Calder’s bastard.

Honestly, really based on no hard evidence I suspect the boy is in some way magical. The Union and dogman has their Rikke mayhaps the boy is a counterance. But again this is just vague suspicion. 

I hear you, I just can't imagine Calder not having a mistress bearing in mind how he thinks in The Heroes. 

[Gaston de Foix]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

I was wondering if Bayaz is somehow manipulating Rikke, sending her the visions somehow. The on-the-nose nature of the visions and the fact he really didn't give a toss about what she saw about him made me think there was some connection there.

I read it a little differently. Bayaz specifically asked her what she saw when she saw him.

I think Bayaz has her marked out as a possible recruit to the order of the Magi, which would be cool (we would see her magical instruction from the inside) and would also explain how she would gain sufficient importance to become the owl to eat the lamb (Orso).  

 

[SkynJay]

On 9/19/2019 at 8:48 AM, Rhom said:

It likely doesn't matter, but I do assume that Bayaz orchestrated Jezal's death.  Why?  That I don't know other than authorial fiat to advance Orso in the story.  Surely Jezal had done nothing to cross Bayaz.  The only thing I can figure is that if I'm correct about Bayaz orchestrating the peasant revolt (Sulfur talks to Calder about Bayaz being in favor of the occasional chaos) somehow Orso's role as the scapegoat in the resolution must play into Bayaz' plan to elevate him to king as well. 

Finally finished and dove into this spoiler thread.  Seems to have taken me almost as long as the book.

I will start with the week old question above.  I am 80% certain Jezal dies because Savene has learned of her parentage and Bayaz doesn't need a hint of a succession fight.  When she confronts Gloka at the parade about the revelation she sees Bayaz take notice.  I think Bayaz covered his bases by putting Orso on the throne; it will be harder to dethrone him with a bastard if he already wears the crown.

Also, add me to the weaver is not Bayaz side.  I don't think it will be that simple

One question for now, more after I do a reread.

Am I supposed to remember Vic or was she new?

 

[Rhom]

1 hour ago, SkynJay said:

One question for now, more after I do a reread.

Am I supposed to remember Vic or was she new?

 

She’s new, father was Sepp dan Teufel who Glokta sent to the mines in original trilogy.

[unJon]

4 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I read it a little differently. Bayaz specifically asked her what she saw when she saw him.

I think Bayaz has her marked out as a possible recruit to the order of the Magi, which would be cool (we would see her magical instruction from the inside) and would also explain how she would gain sufficient importance to become the owl to eat the lamb (Orso).  

 

Broad is the Owl, not Rikke. 

[BigFatCoward]

13 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

 

If Bayaz is the Weaver (and I still think it's likely) one would think that he would be financing the revolt through his bank. And perhaps he is. But then, why was its office burnt?

Because he keeps his cards close to his chest. He can lose a bank for a bigger plan. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

I hear you, I just can't imagine Calder not having a mistress bearing in mind how he thinks in The Heroes. 

Oh, no I’d be surprised if Calder didn’t have at least some bastards.

I imagine some even older than or just about as old as Stout. 

I just don’t think at this point he’d bring unknown child bastard of his in this conflict. Not out of sentimental reasons but because it’d be a waste of time.

Also, anyone notice Scale didn’t have a wife? It would increase his own power. I wonder if that was Calder’s doing? Stout is the king in waiting seemingly because Scale has no sons to leave his kingdom to. 

On 9/25/2019 at 4:05 PM, Dez said:

 

To me, Orso looks like he's being set up by Bayaz to be the fall man for a larger revolution. He's coming to the throne by Bayaz's design (we know Jezal didn't just die) right at a moment when he's been branded with a horrible reputation. With Jezal, Bayaz went to pains to build him up as a young hero king for the purpose of holding up the Union's status quo. He wants Orso to be the scapegoat for whatever unrest comes to reorder things. At least, I think that's the plan. Fortunately, there's two thirds of this thing left and since most readers are initiated as to what Bayaz is, I doubt he's going to have all his own way this time.

 

This...honestly makes a lot of sense. A large part of why Jezal was branded a hero was how he was was able to deal with a peasant uprising with no loss of life. Orso had the same opportunity, but Bayaaz took it from him. One of Bayaaz’s lessons to Jezal is to try to win the people’s love for they could be a powerful weapon. If not that you should at least be able to acquire their fear. Orso, has neither. They do not fear or love him. They simply hate him. Hell looking back, I wonder if Orso and Leo’s celebrations were joined to together to mitigate the potential of Leo’s success bringing confidence in the current system and the continued opposition for Orso to go north to assist in the war-effort being motivated out of fear Orso would win some glory. 

 

[red snow]

Ok so I've just finished the circle fight so if the answer is revealed later on don't answer these questions but they are bugging me.

Was clover in any of the earlier books? I know he went by another name but it isn't ringing a bell. He just seems like the kind of person we'd have seen in the heroes.

In a similar vein have we encountered Broad before? He feels more like a new character but i know Joe likes to use minor characters from earlier books when he can.

Again, if the answers are revealed in the book there's not much point in answering but it's one of those things that slightly distract me while reading their chapters.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh, no I’d be surprised if Calder didn’t have at least some bastards.

I imagine some even older than or just about as old as Stout. 

I just don’t think at this point he’d bring unknown child bastard of his in this conflict. Not out of sentimental reasons but because it’d be a waste of time.

Also, anyone notice Scale didn’t have a wife? It would increase his own power. I wonder if that was Calder’s doing? Stout is the king in waiting seemingly because Scale has no sons to leave his kingdom to. 

This...honestly makes a lot of sense. A large part of why Jezal was branded a hero was how he was was able to deal with a peasant uprising with no loss of life. Orso had the same opportunity, but Bayaaz took it from him. One of Bayaaz’s lessons to Jezal is to try to win the people’s love for they could be a powerful weapon. If not that you should at least be able to acquire their fear. Orso, has neither. They do not fear or love him. They simply hate him. Hell looking back, I wonder if Orso and Leo’s celebrations were joined to together to mitigate the potential of Leo’s success bringing confidence in the current system and the continued opposition for Orso to go north to assist in the war-effort being motivated out of fear Orso would win some glory. 

 

First bit, I didn't see Calder as bringing the lad into anything, he just happened to be with him as he talked to someone he trusted. The lad has been absent from any of the actual events. 

Second, absolutely see this but I like the idea it's Glokta behind it, especially with the suspicious way the inquisition has been acting. Of course their suspect actions could be this is all at Bayaz's request but I love the idea a crippled/injured Khalul has come to Glokta and they've come to an agreement. 

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

2 minutes ago, red snow said:

Ok so I've just finished the circle fight so if the answer is revealed later on don't answer these questions but they are bugging me.

Was clover in any of the earlier books? I know he went by another name but it isn't ringing a bell. He just seems like the kind of person we'd have seen in the heroes.

In a similar vein have we encountered Broad before? He feels more like a new character but i know Joe likes to use minor characters from earlier books when he can.

Again, if the answers are revealed in the book there's not much point in answering but it's one of those things that slightly distract me while reading their chapters.

Both new characters, clearly Broad is a refined Union Bloody Nine, I expect more focus on the trauma that made him as he is and less force of nature. 

Clover is retconed to be at all the events of the books like Craw was in The Heroes but he is new. He seems a northern Cosca with less suave and more brutality as you would expect. 

[Rhom]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Also, anyone notice Scale didn’t have a wife? It would increase his own power. I wonder if that was Calder’s doing? Stout is the king in waiting seemingly because Scale has no sons to leave his kingdom to. 

I wondered about that as well.  

One minor thing I have to ask... why are you calling him Stout?  I saw it in your first post long ago and thought it was a typo or an auto correct, but we are now seven pages in and it’s really bugging me!!!  

[Corvinus85]

Finished. A very good book, and with a spectrum of solid characters. I can’t say I loved all the characters, but all were at least fine. Orso, Savine, Leo and Rikke were great, Gunnar was a bit of a discount Logen, while Clover and Vick were good, but the deliberate murkiness of their pasts and motivations made me less attached to them.

Joe, once again, wrote a bunch of terrific action scenes. The brief Angland-North war was pretty good. I was initially let down by the disjointed way in which the Valbeck Uprising was resolved. It started strongly, with Savine’s heart-pounding scene, but then the whole thing was left on the back-burner until Orso arrived. In hindsight, it was likely orchestrated to fail, and the big status quo change is yet to come.

A bit of a different book in its structure, too. The more climactic scenes, like the duel in the Circle happened earlier than expected, with the plot winding down, and the big, shock moments at the end. But the end was strong, and good enough to make me want to jump in the next book now. Thankfully, it didn’t have a massive cliffhanger that would really make go nuts. A year isn’t that long of a wait. (you all know why)