A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)

[Corvinus85]

7 hours ago, unJon said:

Broad is the Owl, not Rikke. 

Why, because of the glasses?

[SeanF]

17 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I guess it could be that Leo and Stour fight war against the Union. I hadn't considered this possibility, tbh. However, Isn't Angland mainly populated by people from Midderland? They may be a little discontent towards the Union right now, but not sure if it would be to the point of joining their natural enemies to fight their brothers. So, while I could see Leo doing that, I don't see Angland following him (starting with his own mother).

Someone at Reddit suggests that perhaps it's meant to be Monza. After Orso throws her from Montezarno, Shenkt heals her and mentions that he has mended the broken pieces of her skull with golden coins.

Seems a good bet.

Probably Ardee and Glokta see Orso as most of Adua does, some completely unreliable dunce, that shouldn't be trusted with anything.

The odd think here is that Valint&Balk office in Valbeck was one of the first things that the revolutionaries burned. It seems that the bankers are not seen by the population as a neutral agent, but as the financiers of the explotation of the workers.

If Bayaz is the Weaver (and I still think it's likely) one would think that he would be financing the revolt through his bank. And perhaps he is. But then, why was its office burnt?

I don't think Bayaz has any attachment to Valint & Balk per se.  It's an instrument of power in his hands.  He's not interested in the accumulation of wealth for its own sake.

That's why I suggested upthread, he might have no objection to a socialist revolution, provided he remained the one in overall charge, and provided it enhanced the military power of the Union.

[unJon]

46 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Why, because of the glasses?

I think there’s a three way fight brewing. The Union proper (led by Orso) vs a rebellion in the North instigated by the free open counsel members (led by Leo joining forces with Stour). The Lamb (Orso) will eat the Lion (Leo). 

Then there’s the people’s revolt instigated by the Weaver. The Union will unsuccessfully try to stamp it out but the Owl (?) will eat the Lamb (Orso). So to me the question is who is on the “people’s” side that could be the Owl. Broad clearly seems to be falling into that roll given his last chapter. The glasses are just gravy, and could see that being the reason he gets the nickname Owl. 

[Gaston de Foix]

8 hours ago, unJon said:

Broad is the Owl, not Rikke. 

You've persuaded me.  I suspect Broad will turn into a Danton like figure. 

[red snow]

4 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

Both new characters, clearly Broad is a refined Union Bloody Nine, I expect more focus on the trauma that made him as he is and less force of nature. 

Clover is retconed to be at all the events of the books like Craw was in The Heroes but he is new. He seems a northern Cosca with less suave and more brutality as you would expect. 

Cheers. That helps as i can read it now without thinking if I've encountered them before.

I hadn't thought of broad as having bloody nine elements but that's a good shout now you mention it.

One thing i like about the new book is how the union soldiers seem much more competent. In the heroes it felt like they were rubbish and lead by idiots whereas with finree and leo's men they seem much more competent. I guess this reflects two decades of war where bad leaders have been rooted out and generally more experienced. Getting beat by monza has clearly improved union forces

[Caligula_K3]

6 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Because he keeps his cards close to his chest. He can lose a bank for a bigger plan. 

Yep. In Best Served Cold, he's more than happy to have Monza on his side even after the murder of Mauthis and many others at Valint and Balk. The bank, like the Union, is just a tool.

[Corvinus85]

Some of my thoughts and theories

Leo is deeply in the closet, but based on his attraction to Savine, and even Selest, I’d say he’s bisexual. Jurand is clearly gay.

Zuri and her brothers are Eaters of Khalul (I see I’m not the only to think so, which is no surprise). I briefly assumed Zuri = Sulfur, as she disappeared prior to Sulfur approaching Savine at the Solar Society meeting, but the introductions of her brothers dispelled that, and her disappearance in that scene suggests the possibility that Sulfur knows her, or at least could recognize her as an Eater.

I’m not sure if Judge is also an Eater. I thought she may be Carlot dan Eider, though I couldn’t tell how old Judge is supposed to be. She was physically attracted to Gunnar, which is line with how Carlot behaved in the past.

My only assumption about the boy that escorted Calder when he met with Clover was that he was a son of Stranger-Come-Knocking, fathered on Aliz dan Brint. I would like to know what happened to her and if she had kids. Stranger wanted to have civilized kids, so before his death, he could have arranged a fostering with Calder.

Also, regarding the tribes east of the Crina, their leader is dead, and we know that Stour led some sort of raid there. Did the Northern kingdom subdue the tribes? If not, they could be the first target of a joined Stour-Leo campaign.

Is Yoru Sulfur turning against Bayaz? No clear evidence, and Sulfur’s story about Bayaz’s trip to the west matches Bayaz’s own words. But I don’t seem to recall Sulfur in the presence of Bayaz, there at the end. And it is a bit suspicious. Sulfur went with Bayaz at the Battle of Osrung. So, unless he got sent on a new mission, he would be by Bayaz’s side.

There's a strong possibility that Bayaz's mission to the west to deal with those Magi is bullshit. Awfully convenient he is on the same ship that carries Rikke and Leo to Adua. He might have been closer to Adua that we are given to believe.

My thoughts on Rikke's visions

First, her powers manifest in two different ways. One way is that she combines the Long Eye with her normal vision, and thus sees something that will literally happen or has happened at the place she’s observing. The other way is she looks across time & space, but this one is weird, because we see a couple of examples of seeing the life of an object, beginning-to-end, and these visions are literal, too. But then she sees stuff with symbols, like the wolf-lion vision. I wonder why that is. (besides this being a classic fantasy trope)

Here’s a rundown of the visions that are not clear cut, and my interpretation:

In her first chapter she sees the following:

• Dozens of folk falling down from a tower – ???
• Rows of hanged folk – likely the people hanged by the Burners in Valbeck
• Battle below a red hill – the Battle of Red Hill
• Uffrith burning – literal vision of what happens in Uffrith; she knows this is Uffrith, and when she sees the city in the distance, it’s like in her vision; so why aren’t the other visions like this one?
• A wolf eating the sun, in turn being eaten by a lion, which in turn is eaten by a lamb, which in turn is eaten by an owl. (In a later chapter, Rikke uses the word devour when she thinks of this vision) – this one’s a big one; when she encounters the 3 men loyal to Stour and she learns of what’s happening, she immediately assumes that the first part the vision is being fulfilled. I am not convinced of the Union – Stour – Leo – Orso – whoever is the owl possibility, despite all the nicknames. The symbolism of something eating something else is quite strong but what happened in reality? All the fighting of the brief war happened on Protectorate territory, the Union didn’t lose that much. Leo beat Stour in the Circle, but didn’t kill him, and he is working on becoming allies with him, not subduing him. So has anything of this vision even happen yet?

The chapter after she had sex with Leo:

• A bald weaver with an endless purse of gold – likely Bayaz, even if Bayaz isn’t the Weaver; however, this vision came prior to her meeting Bayaz, and she didn’t recognize him, so all she saw was that the weaver was bald, but nothing else
• An old woman with her head stitched by golden wires – some have speculated it’s Murcatto, and I hope this is so; the only problem is there’s no apparent context to this vision, yet.
• A wolf and a lion fighting in a circle of blood, with the wolf having the better of it, but the lion winning – this one is the duel between Stour and Leo, doubtful it’s anything else

When she helps Leo in the Circle:

• A crack in the sky, opening into a black pit, full of knowledge of everything, enough to drive someone crazy – hmm, a gate to hell opening? Or just her seeing the source of the Long Eye’s power, since this is when she forced the Eye to open.

Her final visions:

• A prancing white horse on a broken tower – the white horse alludes to the Steadfast Banner of Casamir, but what is the broken tower? And whose victory does this vision allude to? A leader within the Union, like Orso or Leo? Or is the theory that Shenkt = Casamir true and it has something to do with him?
• A great door opening, with an empty room behind. – likely the House of the Maker re-opening
• An old chieftain dead. Men gathered around his body, thinking what they could get out of it – likely Jezal (very saddened for both Jezal and Wonderful, they deserved better). This is similar to the weaver vision, in that Rikke doesn’t recognize who it is, though she immediately assumes it’s her father; but she knows Jezal and Scale, too. I think it’s Jezal, and not Scale, because of the second part, with all the men gathered around the body – there are more factions that could try to profit from Jezal’s death – we got Orso, of course, the husbands of Orso’s sisters, one being Styrian, and that could bring Murcatto into it, Savine, the powerful lords of Midderland, possibly Leo, Glokta and the Closed Council, and Bayaz.

 

[Gaston de Foix]

48 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Some of my thoughts and theories

Is Yoru Sulfur turning against Bayaz? No clear evidence, and Sulfur’s story about Bayaz’s trip to the west matches Bayaz’s own words. But I don’t seem to recall Sulfur in the presence of Bayaz, there at the end. And it is a bit suspicious. Sulfur went with Bayaz at the Battle of Osrung. So, unless he got sent on a new mission, he would be by Bayaz’s side.

There's a strong possibility that Bayaz's mission to the west to deal with those Magi is bullshit. Awfully convenient he is on the same ship that carries Rikke and Leo to Adua. He might have been closer to Adua that we are given to believe.

My thoughts on Rikke's visions

First, her powers manifest in two different ways. One way is that she combines the Long Eye with her normal vision, and thus sees something that will literally happen or has happened at the place she’s observing. The other way is she looks across time & space, but this one is weird, because we see a couple of examples of seeing the life of an object, beginning-to-end, and these visions are literal, too. But then she sees stuff with symbols, like the wolf-lion vision. I wonder why that is. (besides this being a classic fantasy trope)

 

Excellent points all.  I'm confining myself to areas of disagreement/elaboration 

1.  The best evidence for Sulfur turning against Bayaz is his abortive attempt to strike up an alliance with Savine. Sulfur is in fact present at Adua with Bayaz at the end. 

2.  If Bayaz's mission to the west to deal with his fellow magi was bullshit, it would be odd for Sulfur to say so much earlier in time in the novel.  And we know from Red Country that Zacharius is politically active and anti-Union.  I am inclined to believe that Bayaz went where he said he went, for the reasons he said.  I don't think it was coincidence though that he was on the same ship as Rikke and Leo. 

3.  The nature of Rikke's visions. I think the Long Eye basically works by showing her events across space, and sometimes across time.  Easiest to see the present, then the past, and hardest of all to see the future. That's why she starts with Uffrith burning.  Her mind translates the future in allegory.

4. If knowledge is the root of all power, as Bayaz observes, then Rikke acquiring the knowing of everything would make her the most powerful person in the world.  At the same time, it might drive her mad. 

5.  There is one final vision we have missed - which is when she sees boats sinking when she is on the boat with Bayaz. 

 

[SeanF]

Quote

 

I don't think Judge can be Carlot.  Judge is unhinged, whereas Carlot is calm and polished.

[Corvinus85]

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't think Judge can be Carlot.  Judge is unhinged, whereas Carlot is calm and polished.

Unless all her defeats and failures over the years unhinged her. She wasn't feeling very optimistic about things at the end of Red Country, we don't know if she had to abandon that position, too.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

6 hours ago, red snow said:

One thing i like about the new book is how the union soldiers seem much more competent. In the heroes it felt like they were rubbish and lead by idiots whereas with finree and leo's men they seem much more competent. I guess this reflects two decades of war where bad leaders have been rooted out and generally more experienced. Getting beat by monza has clearly improved union forces

I never got that from the Heroes, Jallenhorm makes blunders early but the Union soldiers show themselves to be extremely effective soldiers against the Northmen especially as all the ground is against them. The other big mistake is Mitterick and Felnigg's tiff but half of that is Calder's luck to get hold of the orders. 

The climb up to The Children with Northmen dug in was quite the feat. 

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

42 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Unless all her defeats and failures over the years unhinged her. She wasn't feeling very optimistic about things at the end of Red Country, we don't know if she had to abandon that position, too.

I must admit I thought it was Carlot at first. Decided against it in the end as I'm not sure why she'd come back to the Union hut who knows

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

4 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Some of my thoughts and theories

Leo is deeply in the closet, but based on his attraction to Savine, and even Selest, I’d say he’s bisexual. Jurand is clearly gay.

I think Leo is gay not bisexual. In his sex scene with Sabine, like with Rikke he is constantly trying to convince himself he likes them. There is even so weird missing mummy shouting at him vibe with Sabine. The man has never found himself attracted to girls but he enjoys the macho culture which bedding woman is a part. Selest he loves the attention she is giving him, the man makes Jezal look humble. 

 

On your Sulfur point I'd say no, we've seen him trusted to perform all sorts of tasks on his own in previous books. He's the Tanner in the first trilogy as well as preparing the way for Bayaz plus he's in Styria without sign of Bayaz in BSC. And I noticed he has had a promotion since then, he's considered a full blown Magus by Bayaz now rather than Bayaz's servant. The subservient relationship between the men doesn't seem to have changed but we can assume it means he's trusted with even more independance in his tasks. 

[BigFatCoward]

Where is this carlot is the judge theory coming from? She'd be about 55-60 now? Is the judge described as anywhere near that? 

 

[Mark Antony]

3 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Where is this carlot is the judge theory coming from? She'd be about 55-60 now? Is the judge described as anywhere near that? 

 

I didn’t get the impression she was anywhere near that old

[Rhom]

5 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Where is this carlot is the judge theory coming from? She'd be about 55-60 now? Is the judge described as anywhere near that? 

 

Yeah, I never got Carlot vibes from her either.  I just think its a natural tendency for everyone to try to make someone into someone they've known before, much like thinking Clover was someone we'd met before.

[SeanF]

I think Carlot was about 30 when we first met her, so she'd be about 60 now, if she's still alive.

[Dez]

The Judge is described as a redhead right? I first thought of Vitari, but although we probably can't rule out that Monza would send some sort of agent to stir up unrest in the Union, I lean against the Judge having some hidden identity because there's really nothing else to go on and not every character needs to be someone from the past. 

[Caligula_K3]

Yeah. In fact, I hope Judge isn't a character we already know.  Too much of that sort of thing tends to make a universe feel very small, and there are already a lot of characters in this new series related to major characters.

(Embarrassingly, even though I just reread the First Law, I mixed up Rews and Teufel in my head and thought for the first half of the book that Vick was Pike's daughter. I was very confused when there was no recognition between the two when they met...) 

[Gaston de Foix]

18 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

On your Sulfur point I'd say no, we've seen him trusted to perform all sorts of tasks on his own in previous books. He's the Tanner in the first trilogy as well as preparing the way for Bayaz plus he's in Styria without sign of Bayaz in BSC. And I noticed he has had a promotion since then, he's considered a full blown Magus by Bayaz now rather than Bayaz's servant. The subservient relationship between the men doesn't seem to have changed but we can assume it means he's trusted with even more independance in his tasks. 

Which is why he might be thinking about a post-Bayasian world. Following in the footsteps of his master and all that.