A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)

[Zorral]

I have no speculations until I begin reading the third book.  It's much too early when we're still putting the figures on the board and the figures are only learning of each other's existence and positions as well.  The only thing I will speculate on with any confidence is that Stour will be around at least until nearly the last pages of the third installment / act.  And that many many many people are going to die in excruciating pain and most of them will be anonymous.  That's how it rolls ....  Sad, about Wonderful.    

 

[A True Kaniggit]

I wonder how much Pike knows about who truly holds the power in the Union. I’m guessing Glotka must have told him something of Bayaz over the years.

Because even if you think that Orso can’t do shit right now (because of Jezal and Glotka), going behind the future king’s back and killing everyone like Pike did is not a healthy move, unless you already know that Orso’s ability to get revenge in the future will be severely limited by something else. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 9/27/2019 at 2:47 PM, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

I think Leo is gay not bisexual. In his sex scene with Sabine, like with Rikke he is constantly trying to convince himself he likes them. There is even so weird missing mummy shouting at him vibe with Sabine. The man has never found himself attracted to girls but he enjoys the macho culture which bedding woman is a part. Selest he loves the attention she is giving him, the man makes Jezal look humble. 

Perhaps terms like “gay” and “bisexual” may be too simplistic to use here. Sexuality is a spectrum. Though I do think Leo is attracted to masculinity. Rikke and his mother(at least in his eyes), Sabine aren’t as traditionally  feminine when compared to the girls/women he’s been with. 

On 9/27/2019 at 1:34 PM, SeanF said:

I don't think Judge can be Carlot.  Judge is unhinged, whereas Carlot is calm and polished.

Meh, I agree that Judge probably isn’t Carlot. I think Carlot by the time we see her in RCJ is too broken to muster up the passion to even try the part of Judge. That she’s fairly resigned to the notion that whatever success she’d win is temporary. 

On 9/26/2019 at 12:12 AM, A True Kaniggit said:

Another thing that I noticed and liked, was how the legend of Logen Ninefingers has changed over the years.  

In The Heroes the very mention of his name was enough to make people shit themselves. He was remembered with disgust, hate, and fear by those who actually knew him (barring Jezal). 

But it seems the younger generation who didn’t witness his atrocities first hand now idolize him. 

I respectfully disagree. 

We actually do see a B9 fanboy in Craw’s crew in the Heroes. Stranger come knocking, wanted to fight Logan  but it’s clear he legitimately respected the man.

Hell, people we see pissing themselves over the name of him are on the side of Black Dow. 

But I don’t think that means those kids didn’t respect the B9. Fear and respect often go hand and hand. I imagine if they were on his side most would probably be super-excited by his presence on the battlefield thinking it’d be the thing that would insure their victory. Well at least he starts killing his allies too maybe.

On 9/27/2019 at 3:24 AM, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

First bit, I didn't see Calder as bringing the lad into anything, he just happened to be with him as he talked to someone he trusted. The lad has been absent from any of the actual events. 

Second, absolutely see this but I like the idea it's Glokta behind it, especially with the suspicious way the inquisition has been acting. Of course their suspect actions could be this is all at Bayaz's request but I love the idea a crippled/injured Khalul has come to Glokta and they've come to an agreement. 

Meh, Pre-Jezal I’d say no.  The Ghurkish have tortured and have tried to kill Glokta  multiple times. He has a daughter and wife who so far are prospering in the Union. He has no apparent reason to risk betraying Bayaz who doubtlessly has made it so agents of his could kill Glokta  at a moment’s notice should Glokta try to betray Bayaaz.

But I cannot help but think perhaps killing Glokta is one of the next steps. 

The torturer was always meant to “play” the role of being the true ruler of the union,. Glockta would play the Ugly mask so more curious minds would stop looking for answers because they think they already uncovered the truth. Jezal was the pretty mask to Glockta. A valuable piece that could appease the masses.

Now that Jezal’s gone, there’s only Orso and Glockta. Orso cannot play the role of a young dashing king. He’s worthless as a mask. Both he and Glockta are reviled, but only one is feared.

If Bayaz truly wants to wipe out the monarchy and restructure the government, killing Glockta could make sense. People would see the regime as unstable, potential revels would be emboldened to lash out and potentially bring the whole system down. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 9/27/2019 at 4:57 AM, Rhom said:

I wondered about that as well.  

One minor thing I have to ask... why are you calling him Stout?  I saw it in your first post long ago and thought it was a typo or an auto correct, but we are now seven pages in and it’s really bugging me!!!  

Hmm, I guess I was. Didn’t realize that. Weird. 

[Jerry Drake]

I enjoyed the book very much, even though, as someone said, this is more a set up operation for the events that will unfold in the following novels. Couple of points to make:
 

I don't think there is enough information to conclude who is the lamb or who is the owl. I would assume that these will not be some veiled links. If it's assumed that sun is the Union and wolf and lion Stour and Leo, these are all part of symbolism that has been clearly set out before. Sun is badge/crest of the Union and Union forces, Stour describes himself as a wolf, bares his teeth even like a wolf would, while Leo is, well 'leo', and everyone refers ti him by his young lion nickname. Technically, Broad might be the sheep since he was a shepherd before the army, but I would sooner assume it's Orso, because he is called Lamb by the jeering crowd (why do they call him that, I didn't really understand, where did that come from?). Similarly, I think we haven't met the owl yet, or rather, when we do, there would be clear connection between the person and nickname or symbolism attached to that person.

Also, I think that people expect too much from Savine in terms of changing the working class conditions. I believe she is suffering from PTSD. Events she survived were traumatic and she is reliving them constantly, images coming unbidden, torturing her again and again, and there is no support for her at all. When she comes to her mother, aching to be held, she is held at arms length and drinking is provided as the answer. The father figure in her life basically tells her to snap out of it. Person who she is in love with is her half brother. Even the effects of cocaine are different now, making her not relaxed and at ease as it used to but permanently on edge and making her reckless, as evidenced by giving Rikke the necklace, seconds after making a very low opinion judgment about her, and swapping gifts that are ludicrously disproportionate in value.

Very much looking forward to the next books.

Edit:

I also believe that Savine might be carrying Orso's child. Why else mention her period on couple of occasions, followed by them having sex for the first time weeks after that. I mean obviously not first sexual interaction, but as i understood it, it was only oral sex before.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Jerry Drake said:

I also believe that Savine might be carrying Orso's child. Why else mention her period on couple of occasions, followed by them having sex for the first time weeks after that. I mean obviously not first sexual interaction, but as i understood it, it was only oral sex before.

Had that thought, too, at the time when I read their sex scene.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Jerry Drake said:

I also believe that Savine might be carrying Orso's child. Why else mention her period on couple of occasions, followed by them having sex for the first time weeks after that. I mean obviously not first sexual interaction, but as i understood it, it was only oral sex before.

Another reason she’d probably have to be killed if Bayaz truly plans to do away with the royal family. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Jerry Drake said:

Also, I think that people expect too much from Savine in terms of changing the working class conditions. I believe she is suffering from PTSD. Events she survived were traumatic and she is reliving them constantly, images coming unbidden, torturing her again and again, and there is no support for her at all. When she comes to her mother, aching to be held, she is held at arms length and drinking is provided as the answer. The father figure in her life basically tells her to snap out of it. Person who she is in love with is her half brother. Even the effects of cocaine are different now, making her not relaxed and at ease as it used to but permanently on edge and making her reckless, as evidenced by giving Rikke the necklace, seconds after making a very low opinion judgment about her, and swapping gifts that are ludicrously disproportionate in value.

True. For who she was already prior to incident, whose around her to actually discuss the rebellion, and the lack of an empathetic ear from those closest to her it’s unrealistic to expect her to develop some profound awakening on the topic of the importance of worker rights.

[Jerry Drake]

I would assume that the topic of her own mental health would be of greater concern. You can take various lessons from crises you survive, just as Victarine learnt to always side with the winning side, Savine might come to conclusion that it's every man (and woman) for themselves and that you can't trust anyone. I don't see that she has to become all altruistic all of a sudden.

[Gaston de Foix]

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Another reason she’d probably have to be killed if Bayaz truly plans to do away with the royal family. 

Or the child becomes the hidden heir if Orso goes the way of Louis XIV. 

[Veltigar]

On 9/26/2019 at 1:05 AM, Dez said:

To me, Orso looks like he's being set up by Bayaz to be the fall man for a larger revolution. He's coming to the throne by Bayaz's design (we know Jezal didn't just die) right at a moment when he's been branded with a horrible reputation. With Jezal, Bayaz went to pains to build him up as a young hero king for the purpose of holding up the Union's status quo. He wants Orso to be the scapegoat for whatever unrest comes to reorder things. At least, I think that's the plan. Fortunately, there's two thirds of this thing left and since most readers are initiated as to what Bayaz is, I doubt he's going to have all his own way this time.

That said, all the characters seem just as clueless this time around as to what Bayaz looks to be up to- even the ones who know that Bayaz is the puppet master. You'd think for instance that if Glokta had some secret game going on that he might not have let Savine drift so close to the crosshairs of Bayaz's attention. Really, I think Glokta, like the reader, has been conditioned to think that Bayaz with all his monarchical airs values the current institutions of the Union for their own sake. But as a shadow ruler he could easily slap a new color paint on his tools and be just as effective. They could have a fairly dramatic political and social revolution and Bayaz could still use his existing levers to control the machine. 

 

Bingo, I agree with your assessment  

 

[Veltigar]

On 9/27/2019 at 6:55 PM, Corvinus said:

 

Her final visions:

• A prancing white horse on a broken tower – the white horse alludes to the Steadfast Banner of Casamir, but what is the broken tower? And whose victory does this vision allude to? A leader within the Union, like Orso or Leo? Or is the theory that Shenkt = Casamir true and it has something to do with him?

I want some more explanation about that theory if you have some? This is the first I read about it. 

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

On 9/29/2019 at 9:36 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, Pre-Jezal I’d say no.  The Ghurkish have tortured and have tried to kill Glokta  multiple times. He has a daughter and wife who so far are prospering in the Union. He has no apparent reason to risk betraying Bayaz who doubtlessly has made it so agents of his could kill Glokta  at a moment’s notice should Glokta try to betray Bayaaz.

Glokta doesn't fear death though, we've seen inside his head in the first trilogy. His biggest fear is that Bayaz will get Sabine involved. Sabine who as you say is doing well in the Union and so prime to be used. Khalul is not Gurkhal, Ghurkal is gone and Glokta never dismissed what the Emporer had to say despite what they had done. Now if Khalul was able to give an eater as Sabine's protector (Ishri/Zuri) he may be willing to act. 

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Veltigar said:

I want some more explanation about that theory if you have some? This is the first I read about it. 

I saw it on the First Law wiki, on Shenkt's page.

Quote

There is a theory that Shenkt was the celebrated King Casamir. Vitari's pet name for him is Cas. It is also the name of one of their children. It is quite striking that Bayaz seems to have a particularly low opinion of King Casmir, referring to him as a coward. Also, Shenkt speaks with a trace of a Union accent. It seems plausible that Casamir/Shenkt was Bayaz' pawn as King, but also his apprentice and an Eater. Eventually, Casamir/Shenkt turned against Bayaz. Hence, Shenkt hates Bayaz, Bayaz refers to Casamir as a coward, and Bayaz chose more malleable Kings in the future, like Jezal.

And Shenkt's comment about not kneeling may have more that one meaning.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

Glokta doesn't fear death though, we've seen inside his head in the first trilogy.

We also see willing to submit to Bayaz rather than be another body amongst the legions Bayaz has killed.

Though living is torturous, Glokta shows he generally prefers being alive than being dead.

2 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

His biggest fear is that Bayaz will get Sabine involved. Sabine who as you say is doing well in the Union and so prime to be used. 

One of his fears certainly. And he has no less reason to think the Prophet would stick his claws into her than Bayaz. 

2 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

Khalul is not Gurkhal, 

He is it’s core. The empire has been manufactured to serve the prophet’s ends much as the Union as been manufactured to serve Bayaz’s. Every significantly great or evil the empire is/was at the very least partially responsible for lays at his hands.

2 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

Ghurkal is gone and Glokta never dismissed what the Emporer had to say despite what they had done.

To the bolded more Reason for Glokta not to broached with any offer to betray Bayaz. Why side with the loser? Also, Glokta has tortured multiple envoys sent to him to negotiate

2 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

Now if Khalul was able to give an eater as Sabine's protector (Ishri/Zuri) he may be willing to act. 

For what purpose? Trying to Usurp Bayaz could/likely would end in failure, put Glokta in a much less secure place to protect his daughter if he isn’t outright killed.

Pre-Jezal death I honestly see no legitimate reason for Glokta to contemplate serious treason.

[Varysblackfyre321]

@Joe Abercrombie

How good are Orso and Savine compared to a youthful Jezal in terms of fencing? 

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

We also see willing to submit to Bayaz rather than be another body amongst the legions Bayaz has killed.

Though living is torturous, Glokta shows he generally prefers being alive than being dead.

One of his fears certainly. And he has no less reason to think the Prophet would stick his claws into her than Bayaz. 

He is it’s core. The empire has been manufactured to serve the prophet’s ends much as the Union as been manufactured to serve Bayaz’s. Every significantly great or evil the empire is/was at the very least partially responsible for lays at his hands.

To the bolded more Reason for Glokta not to broached with any offer to betray Bayaz. Why side with the loser? Also, Glokta has tortured multiple envoys sent to him to negotiate

For what purpose? Trying to Usurp Bayaz could/likely would end in failure, put Glokta in a much less secure place to protect his daughter if he isn’t outright killed.

Pre-Jezal death I honestly see no legitimate reason for Glokta to contemplate serious treason.

Glokta doesn't "prefer to be alive" indeed he welcomes death in some scenes in the first trilogy. To him life is a game, he had that world view before he was crippled and sticks to it. In Last Argument of Kings in his conversation with Sult he tells him he'll serve Bayaz and see if he can't wriggle himself free of the restraints. 

Defeated is exactly the time to side with Khalul, to do so before Ghurkal was destroyed he'd be trading one master for another. Defeated and possibly injured Khalul will be in no position to take Bayaz's place. 

Ghurkal is v different to Khalul, the same reason we can't blame Bayaz for every thing the Union army does. It's Hardy Bayaz to blame for all the deaths at the Battle at the High Places for example 

[Gaston de Foix]

If Zuri is an Eater/the Eaters have come to Adua, my hunch is that they are not there on Khalul's orders.  Instead, they have come to take over the Union from within. 

[Corvinus85]

13 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

If Zuri is an Eater/the Eaters have come to Adua, my hunch is that they are not there on Khalul's orders.  Instead, they have come to take over the Union from within. 

Why wouldn't they be there on Khalul's orders to take over the Union from within? Khalul tried to conquer the Union and destroy Bayaz with military power. That failed and even backfired, and now his empire is crumbling. I'd say subterfuge would be an appropriate strategy for someone who is in hiding.

If Zuri and brothers are Eaters and not there on Khalul's orders, maybe they are there really to just survive. If Khalul was forced into hiding and he lost control of the remaining Eaters, maybe the Eaters themselves are taking sides in the civil war in Ghurkul. So Zuri could just be in Adua to find a new life (potentially later she might try to increase her power)

[BigFatCoward]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

Why wouldn't they be there on Khalul's orders to take over the Union from within? Khalul tried to conquer the Union and destroy Bayaz with military power. That failed and even backfired, and now his empire is crumbling. I'd say subterfuge would be an appropriate strategy for someone who is in hiding.

If Zuri and brothers are Eaters and not there on Khalul's orders, maybe they are there really to just survive. If Khalul was forced into hiding and he lost control of the remaining Eaters, maybe the Eaters themselves are taking sides in the civil war in Ghurkul. So Zuri could just be in Adua to find a new life (potentially later she might try to increase her power)

Who are they eating is the next question?