A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)

[karaddin]

Yeah I think the bald weaver is one of the ones that's a misdirect. That vision comes at a time when we're seeing weaver related things in the story but Rikke is not, and while I don't think things need to be closely related to her to be seen with the long eye it's still a bit weird and disconnected for her to be seeing that at that time.

Overall I really appreciate that awareness of the potential for further perspective tricks like Bayaz and Logen doesn't actually make them obvious if they're being done. It just expands the way you need to read the characters.

[Maithanet]

So I was thinking about Stour Nightfall.  Is it possible that he is also gay, and that's where the Leo-Stour detente is going?  Like Leo, he has a cadre of young warriors following him around without a woman in sight.  We don't have an internal POV from him, and I can't remember much discussion of his interactions with women at all.  The only thing I remember is his threats about Rikke, which was notably that "he'd have some of his men, or maybe his dogs" rape her, rather than doing it himself.  Which by itself isn't evidence of being gay, but the door is very much open for it. 

In addition, Nightfall being charmed by Leo's speech about glory would make some sense.  That is sorta where this train of thought started, because I just find the idea of Nightfall agreeing to ally with Angland to be really impractical.  Leo has so little to offer Nightfall politically, I started reaching for an alternative explanation. 

If this is right, that would be a bold authorial choice to have BOTH the alpha warriors of the trilogy be gay/bisexual (and potentially start a relationship of some kind?)  I personally doubt he wants to go there, because there is definitely a vocal subset of fantasy fans that would be very dismissive of a gay relationship featured so prominently. 

[red snow]

That's an interesting angle with Stour and it would fit with Joe "going against type" if the two fall for each other. It would also provide the twist of the partnership actually working rather than ending in betrayal. They do have a lot in common afterall. I also get a bit of an Achilles vibe with leo and stour so that fits as well. I keep expecting Leo's friend to suffer a similar fate to that of Patroclus but maybe it'll be Stour or Leo who have that honour.

[sologdin]

who is hector in this hypothetical, and where is troy?

[Maithanet]

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "an Achilles vibe"?  To me an Achilles type character is one that seems to be infallible, except for one telegraphed weakness that you know is going to come up sooner or later. 

That doesn't fit Leo well, since he was already bested in a fair fight by Stour, who could presumably do it again.  His weakness is that he's dumb as a pack of hammers. 

Stour fits a little better, as he was clearly the superior fighter, and his weakness is that he's a mad, bloodthirsty sociopath (it's possible he's faking, but IMO Joe spent a lot of calories trying to dispel this idea).  But I feel like being a mad, bloodthirsty sociopath is a bad weakness for an Achilles character because it mostly just makes you a villain, although I suppose it could be a weakness as well. 

[red snow]

12 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "an Achilles vibe"?  To me an Achilles type character is one that seems to be infallible, except for one telegraphed weakness that you know is going to come up sooner or later. 

That doesn't fit Leo well, since he was already bested in a fair fight by Stour, who could presumably do it again.  His weakness is that he's dumb as a pack of hammers. 

Stour fits a little better, as he was clearly the superior fighter, and his weakness is that he's a mad, bloodthirsty sociopath (it's possible he's faking, but IMO Joe spent a lot of calories trying to dispel this idea).  But I feel like being a mad, bloodthirsty sociopath is a bad weakness for an Achilles character because it mostly just makes you a villain, although I suppose it could be a weakness as well. 

Achilles vibe in the sense of an ancient hero eg beyond being great at fighting and killing doesn't have many positive attributes that the modern definition of a hero does. He's all about war and those around him glorify him for it. He's also very stubborn, arrogant, petulant and principled and has little interest in politics or Odysseus smarts. Then there's the possibility he's bisexual and has a warrior sidekick who he probably loves.

Leo is obviously not an unstoppable warrior but besides that i think he has a lot in common with ancient greek heroes and Achilles. 

[Ser Sonovagun]

My Wife reckons The Weaver is Savine! Bald wears a weave and spins money. 

Makes Sense to me. 

And I think The Bloody Nine is alive and well but in Broad, Logen is RIP I fear. 

[Rhom]

1 hour ago, Ser Sonovagun said:

And I think The Bloody Nine is alive and well but in Broad, Logen is RIP I fear. 

Got it from Shivers did he?  

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Ser Sonovagun said:

My Wife reckons The Weaver is Savine! Bald wears a weave and spins money. 

Makes Sense to me. 

And I think The Bloody Nine is alive and well but in Broad, Logen is RIP I fear. 

That's a good theory.

 

32 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Got it from Shivers did he?  

Or from bruce banner.

Shivers used to be the popular theory although it was pretty clear logen still had it in red country. Maybe there's more than one vengeful spirit/force from the otherside that can possess angry people.

[sologdin]

savine could step into the weaver role from the long eye vision, but doubtful she is the person who has coordinated the setting's paris commune--seems like that should show up in her perspective?  unless she has amnesia, a bloody nine effect but less a barbarian than a bolshevik berserker.

by the bye, which state gets to have the setting's leninist revolution?

[Consigliere]

Bayaz is almost certainly the weaver from Rikke's vision. Savine is rich but I doubt she has the vast resources of Valint and Balk that could be described as "a purse that never emptied". Whether the weaver from Rikke's vision is the same as The Weaver of the revolution is less clear. 

[Caligula_K3]

6 hours ago, red snow said:

Achilles vibe in the sense of an ancient hero eg beyond being great at fighting and killing doesn't have many positive attributes that the modern definition of a hero does. He's all about war and those around him glorify him for it. He's also very stubborn, arrogant, petulant and principled and has little interest in politics or Odysseus smarts. Then there's the possibility he's bisexual and has a warrior sidekick who he probably loves.

Leo is obviously not an unstoppable warrior but besides that i think he has a lot in common with ancient greek heroes and Achilles. 

Yeah, it's too bad pederasty isn't an acceptable thing in the Union, because Leo does fit the mold of a Homeric hero pretty well.  And I'd say there's just as many scenes of Leo whining to Finree as there are of Achilles whining to Thetis in the Iliad. Stour Nightfall also fits the mold very well in all of his petulance (until the end; though of course murdering relatives is a common pastime in Greek literature, to be followed by many generations of curses).

[Veltigar]

On 10/11/2019 at 3:43 PM, Maithanet said:

So I was thinking about Stour Nightfall.  Is it possible that he is also gay, and that's where the Leo-Stour detente is going?  Like Leo, he has a cadre of young warriors following him around without a woman in sight.  We don't have an internal POV from him, and I can't remember much discussion of his interactions with women at all.  The only thing I remember is his threats about Rikke, which was notably that "he'd have some of his men, or maybe his dogs" rape her, rather than doing it himself.  Which by itself isn't evidence of being gay, but the door is very much open for it. 

In addition, Nightfall being charmed by Leo's speech about glory would make some sense.  That is sorta where this train of thought started, because I just find the idea of Nightfall agreeing to ally with Angland to be really impractical.  Leo has so little to offer Nightfall politically, I started reaching for an alternative explanation. 

If this is right, that would be a bold authorial choice to have BOTH the alpha warriors of the trilogy be gay/bisexual (and potentially start a relationship of some kind?)  I personally doubt he wants to go there, because there is definitely a vocal subset of fantasy fans that would be very dismissive of a gay relationship featured so prominently. 

Nah, I don't think so. Stour seems like the kind of guy who doesn't really care about romantic love or even sex, apart from getting a kick out of a powerplay. All other aspects of his life are subjugated to his lust for power and glory. 

[Gaston de Foix]

On 10/12/2019 at 9:21 AM, sologdin said:

savine could step into the weaver role from the long eye vision, but doubtful she is the person who has coordinated the setting's paris commune--seems like that should show up in her perspective?  unless she has amnesia, a bloody nine effect but less a barbarian than a bolshevik berserker.

by the bye, which state gets to have the setting's leninist revolution?

Expected in Adua (England) but will actually happen in the Old Empire (Russia). 

Agree Savine is not the Weaver.  Honestly, there is no character yet introduced apart from Pike and Bayaz who could credibly be the Weaver.  Pike used to be a merchant, after all. 

[BigFatCoward]

Where would pike have unlimited funds from?   

[Gaston de Foix]

15 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

Where would pike have unlimited funds from?   

He was a merchant.  Maybe he is a secret investor in businesses a la Savine?

[Pilusmagnus]

Took my time reading this one, and I finally finished it. I like that rather than try to surprise us with twists yet again, Joe is relying on our knowledge of the previous trilogy to let us piece together Bayaz' plan by ourselves, and maybe he's working on a misdirection from there. You would naturally expect that Bayaz orchestrated the murder of Scale and the Valbeck uprising, being very probably behind the Burners, and of course the murder of King Jezal. And at the party when the "partner swap" happens, Orso reflects that Rikke suddenly appears to him "like magic", a subtle way of letting us know who is at work here.

Joe's also firm in only letting us experience the story through the eyes of the new characters who know less about the world than we do. In that way, there's an overarching dramatic irony that sets the tone of the book. You know that something bad is gonna happen but you are stuck in the heads of those who have no idea of the danger Bayaz represents. That's also why we are denied a satisfying ending for a character we spent three books in the head of. Just like Orso when he discovers he's never gonna share a moment with his father again, we are bereft from sharing Jezal's last moments and thoughts.

But I can definitely picture Jezal secretly summoning Glokta in his private quarters at two in the morning and telling him in a fit of panic that he feels threatened by Bayaz, and Glokta responding with a sigh: "Jezal. Did you tell the First of the Magi to fuck off again?"

[Nictarion]

Finally got some time to finish this. Loved it. Think Orso is probably my favorite new character, but I like them all. 

[polishgenius]

On 10/5/2019 at 10:59 AM, A True Kaniggit said:

Leo really should have just killed him. Not sure how you're supposed to trust and be friends with such an obvious sociopath.

To be fair Leo doesn't have much firsthand evidence of the obviousness of hw extreme Stour is and is also a bit stupid. I mean, there's a reason Rikke is so angry with him, coz he just dismisses her account coz no-one's opinion matters but his own, especially a woman's.




Anyway, I agree with those who think there's more to Stour than meets the eye, even if at this stage it's largely because this is an Abercrombie book so there usually is. He feels like a PoV for book 2, where we'll discover he's actually ragingly insecure.

[Astromech]

Finished it last night and really enjoyed it. A fantastic new cast of characters. Some very entertaining scenes when the cast of new characters met one another. Orso and Rikke's meeting and convo was hilarious. Some great nuggets thrown in from the other novels as well, such as Bremer asking Leo about his mother. Just enough of older characters in the pages to create a bridge to the new characters and story.

 Loved the First Law world hitting its industrial revolution and labor unrest( I likened the Breakers/Burners alliance to that of anarchists and socialists in the last 1800s). Nice comparison to the Paris Commune. Could Judge be inspired by Louise Michel?

A fantastic ending to set the stage for the rest of the trilogy. I figured Jezal was a goner, but Scale's demise at his nephew's hands was great. I want to imagine Bayaz having staged all of the events in the story to place Savine, as oldest heir of Jezal, on the thrown. Throws in the uprising in Vallbeck and subsequent suppression to harm Orso's reputation in the Union. Starts another war in the North to bring fame to Leo and provide a rival to Orso. Getting Savine under his wing also hurts Glokta. I'm thinking maybe Bayaz is the owl in Rikke's prophecy.