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A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)


Crazydog7

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57 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

To be fair Leo doesn't have much firsthand evidence of the obviousness of hw extreme Stour is and is also a bit stupid. I mean, there's a reason Rikke is so angry with him, coz he just dismisses her account coz no-one's opinion matters but his own, especially a woman's..

Leo also seems to have a romanticized version of Logen that he fanboys over. He probably loved the stories of The Bloody Nine sparing his opponents in the circle then joining up and fighting enemies together. 

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1 hour ago, Astromech said:

 

A fantastic ending to set the stage for the rest of the trilogy. I figured Jezal was a goner, but Scale's demise at his nephew's hands was great. I want to imagine Bayaz having staged all of the events in the story to place Savine, as oldest heir of Jezal, on the thrown. Throws in the uprising in Vallbeck and subsequent suppression to harm Orso's reputation in the Union. Starts another war in the North to bring fame to Leo and provide a rival to Orso. Getting Savine under his wing also hurts Glokta. I'm thinking maybe Bayaz is the owl in Rikke's prophecy.

My issue with Bayaz = Owl is that it would fee like a retread of the first trilogy. We already know the twist that Bayaz is the “big bad” in control behind the scenes. To end this trilogy with Bayaz in the same place and in the same way feels uninspired. I’m expecting more of a twist from Joe. 

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2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Anyway, I agree with those who think there's more to Stour than meets the eye, even if at this stage it's largely because this is an Abercrombie book so there usually is. He feels like a PoV for book 2, where we'll discover he's actually ragingly insecure.

This.  I think the thing that is actually going on is that Stour loved Scale and vice versa.  Also, why no Scale kids? discreetly killed by Calder?

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1 hour ago, unJon said:

My issue with Bayaz = Owl is that it would fee like a retread of the first trilogy. We already know the twist that Bayaz is the “big bad” in control behind the scenes. To end this trilogy with Bayaz in the same place and in the same way feels uninspired. I’m expecting more of a twist from Joe. 



Thinking back on it I strongly suspect that Bayaz is currently in a far more precarious position than he's claiming to be. Like it's almost certain that he's behind the Breakers (maybe not necessarily the Burners?) but that makes fuck all sense if the Union is as under his control as he makes out. Even without the fact that he had to be absent for most of the book due to being 'detained in the West' I wonder if there's other magical forces moving against him in his own kingdom too.

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3 hours ago, Astromech said:

A fantastic ending to set the stage for the rest of the trilogy. I figured Jezal was a goner, but Scale's demise at his nephew's hands was great. I want to imagine Bayaz having staged all of the events in the story to place Savine, as oldest heir of Jezal, on the thrown. Throws in the uprising in Vallbeck and subsequent suppression to harm Orso's reputation in the Union. Starts another war in the North to bring fame to Leo and provide a rival to Orso. Getting Savine under his wing also hurts Glokta. I'm thinking maybe Bayaz is the owl in Rikke's prophecy.

If he was behind it all, then he nearly killed his would be puppet. Kinda risky of him, no?

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I think people are giving Bayaz too much credit.  He can control some big events, but he isn't a micromanager, and things often go against his wishes.  Just looking at the original trilogy, we had Bethod going rogue, Bayaz getting knocked unconscious and nearly killed several times in book 2, and the Gurkish invasion in book 3 which was only held off by the luck of discovering the seed in the HotM a few weeks before the invasion.  I am really resistant to any reading of Little Hatred where everything is happening at the direction of Bayaz.  That's both unlikely and boring. 

Also, rereading the Jezal death scene, Sulfur isn't there.  Someone posted several pages ago that he was.  I don't know if that's meaningful or not.  On the whole there isn't a lot to go on wrt that scene.  There's virtually no description of Bayaz other than his one line, and that is very ambiguous.  Without a doubt it could have been Bayaz, but it just as easily could have been someone else. 

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Bayaz is definitely not an overarching planner who is fourty steps ahead of everyone else. He just knows how to use chaos to strengthen the system. When he starts to lose power, he creates a crisis and mostly improvises from there. The fact that he is behind all the events doesn't mean he intends them to happen, but that he is working through them with his magic. He appears to be in total control not in a Palpatine kind of way ("everything that has transpired has done so according to my design") but because he knows even the most unpredictable action taken by one of his pawns can be turned to his advantage. It's also clear from the way he acts in the first trilogy that he's far from entirely rational and calculating; he's also incredibly rash and petty.

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if the relation of bayaz and jezal is an inversion of arthur/merlin, then i suppose the orso/savine incest is an inversion of arthur/morgause?

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Then after the departing of King Ban and of King Bors, King Arthur rode into Carlion. And thither came to him, King Lot’s wife, of Orkney, in manner of a message, but she was sent thither to espy the court of King Arthur; and she came richly beseen, with her four sons, Gawaine, Gaheris, Agravine, and Gareth, with many other knights and ladies. For she was a passing fair lady, therefore the king cast great love unto her, and desired to lie by her; so they were agreed, and he begat upon her Mordred, and she was his sister, on his mother’s side, Igraine. 

le morte d'arthur I.19.  not enough time in this trilogy to produce a fully formed usurper mordred--though in malory arthur attempts to fight the future via massacre of children:

Quote

Then King Arthur let send for all the children born on May-day, begotten of lords and born of ladies; for Merlin told King Arthur that he that should destroy him should be born on May-day, wherefore he sent for them all, upon pain of death; and so there were found many lords’ sons, and all were sent unto the king, and so was Mordred sent by King Lot’s wife, and all were put in a ship to the sea, and some were four weeks old, and some less. And so by fortune the ship drave unto a castle, and was all to-riven, and destroyed the most part, save that Mordred was cast up, and a good man found him, and nourished him till he was fourteen year old, and then he brought him to the court, as it rehearseth afterward, toward the end of the Death of Arthur. So many lords and barons of this realm were displeased, for their children were so lost, and many put the wite on Merlin more than on Arthur; so what for dread and for love, they held their peace. 

le morte d'arthur I.28. orso wants to kill the fruit of the incest is accordingly volume 2?

 

It's also clear from the way he acts in the first trilogy that he's far from entirely rational and calculating; he's also incredibly rash and petty.

my reading of bayaz in the first law is that he is an upside-down gandalf who takes the ring to use it, but otherwise shares the same frailties and limitations.

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43 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

I recall that after the first couple of books (before his evilness was revealed) I compared Bayaz to Belgarath


Yeah obviously there's a broader fantasy tradition/cliche irreverence thing going on but a lot of the first trilogy seemed to be a direct response to Eddings in particular.

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10 hours ago, unJon said:

My issue with Bayaz = Owl is that it would fee like a retread of the first trilogy. We already know the twist that Bayaz is the “big bad” in control behind the scenes. To end this trilogy with Bayaz in the same place and in the same way feels uninspired. I’m expecting more of a twist from Joe. 

But the trilogy doesn't have to end there, only that the owl eats the lamb. Perhaps his plans don''t entirely come to fruition this time as he's thwarted. Maybe by Glokta or another magi. Would be nice to see more of Shenkt in that regard.

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21 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Also, rereading the Jezal death scene, Sulfur isn't there.  Someone posted several pages ago that he was.  I don't know if that's meaningful or not.  On the whole there isn't a lot to go on wrt that scene.  There's virtually no description of Bayaz other than his one line, and that is very ambiguous. 

I think the speculation of Sulfur comes from the description of the guard who gave Orso a "strange and haunted" look.  It's a bit similar to the "sobbing guard" Glokta mentioned who was outside Prince Raynault's door in BTAH. The sobbing guard turned out to be Sulfur.

I don't buy it myself since the guard looked right at Orso and if it was Sulfur then Orso should have made note of different coloured eyes as this trait is always, without fail, mentioned whenever Sulfur is on page even when he's taken a different form.

 

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I likewise do not find that convincing.  The different colored eyes aren't mentioned, and it's not exactly weird that a guard would have "strange, haunted eyes" when the king he's sworn to protect has just unexpectedly died.  Not to mention that Orso may just be projecting his own "strange and haunted" feelings onto others. 

EDIT:  Since he's a shapeshifter we more or less can never say for sure that Sulfur is NOT there (or anywhere really).  But there's no evidence that he is. 

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3 hours ago, Maithanet said:

 

EDIT:  Since he's a shapeshifter we more or less can never say for sure that Sulfur is NOT there (or anywhere really).  But there's no evidence that he is. 

Whenever Sulfur does appear, the heterochromia is *always* mentioned. Now, this could be misdirection from Joe so that he can slip a disguised Sulfur past us by not mentioning the person's eye colour, but to me it feels like we're being blatantly told that this is how to identify Sulfur regardless of his form.

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While I'm leaning towards foul play with regards to Jezal's death, it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that Jezal just happened to die of natural causes. Bayaz's smugness doesn't really say much - for him, Jezal's death is pretty much meaningless. If some other foe(s) were looking to destabilise The Union then wouldn't it make much more sense to take out Glokta? He'd be more difficult to replace and it seems to be common knowledge that the king is just a puppet.

Also, Jezal's death doesn't really destabilise anything since Orso is there to succeed him and Glokta is still in place -  unlike the first trilogy where Feekt (Bayaz's inside man before Glokta) had died before the start of TBI which resulted in division within the Closed Council with Sult and Marovia vying for power as well as the king and both his heirs dying in a short space of time resulting in the nobles attempting a power grab. 

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5 hours ago, Consigliere said:

While I'm leaning towards foul play with regards to Jezal's death, it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that Jezal just happened to die of natural causes. Bayaz's smugness doesn't really say much - for him, Jezal's death is pretty much meaningless. If some other foe(s) were looking to destabilise The Union then wouldn't it make much more sense to take out Glokta? He'd be more difficult to replace and it seems to be common knowledge that the king is just a puppet.

Also, Jezal's death doesn't really destabilise anything since Orso is there to succeed him and Glokta is still in place -  unlike the first trilogy where Feekt (Bayaz's inside man before Glokta) had died before the start of TBI which resulted in division within the Closed Council with Sult and Marovia vying for power as well as the king and both his heirs dying in a short space of time resulting in the nobles attempting a power grab. 

What are the succession rules in the Union? Not sure if it was mentioned in previous novels. If word gets out that Savine is actually Jezal's oldest child, it could create a struggle for the succession.

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12 hours ago, Astromech said:

What are the succession rules in the Union? Not sure if it was mentioned in previous novels. If word gets out that Savine is actually Jezal's oldest child, it could create a struggle for the succession.

It's a hereditary monarchy but it's unclear whether women are excluded completely from the line of succession although there has never been a High Queen ruling in her own right. If there is no clear heir then the Open Council elects the High King - this has only occurred twice (Jezal and Arnault). 

 

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On 10/17/2019 at 5:52 PM, Pilusmagnus said:

Bayaz is definitely not an overarching planner who is fourty steps ahead of everyone else. He just knows how to use chaos to strengthen the system. When he starts to lose power, he creates a crisis and mostly improvises from there. The fact that he is behind all the events doesn't mean he intends them to happen, but that he is working through them with his magic. He appears to be in total control not in a Palpatine kind of way ("everything that has transpired has done so according to my design") but because he knows even the most unpredictable action taken by one of his pawns can be turned to his advantage. It's also clear from the way he acts in the first trilogy that he's far from entirely rational and calculating; he's also incredibly rash and petty.

I think this is a good reading of it all. His long-term plans do not survive contact with the enemy, so he improvises and does everything he can to manage the transition as deliberately as he can. He strives to appear to be in control at all time, but he's clever enough to know that he's still dealing with people and that a network of control is hard to maintain. 

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