A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, red snow said:

I guess all witnesses are dead so Calder and clover could cook up some excuse eg wonderful killed scale or union/protectorate assassin? 

Stour doesn't have to go with "i killed my uncle"

Yeah, but you know he will.

[Rhom]

29 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Yeah, but you know he will.

Agreed

You have to be realistic about these things.

[Crazydog7]

10 hours ago, Maithanet said:

But how strong could Stour's position possibly be?  He's a warlord who just lost a war (in single combat no less).  So what does he do to bring people back around to his side?  Murder the king.  Stour doesn't come across as much of a thinker or a politician, what with burning Uffrith rather than capturing it. 

 

 

As much as I hate to agree with Bayaz about anything remember that line in the Heroes where he says "The north has always been short of good material"  

So yeah I don't know where he is going with Stour I mean who knew there was a stereotypical northern warrior who looks like he could make Scale seem like an intellectual no ability to plan or think tactically no wonder he pisses his father off.  Bond villain type stuff that really hamstrung the story. 

 

 

 

 

[red snow]

7 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Yeah, but you know he will.

Unless he really has changed (a little) from his defeat in the ring? 

I suspect he might even call on Leo for some assistance in a civil war and Leo is stupid enough to do so. Based on rikke's vision and his meeting with isher/heugen i get the impression Leo will be part of a union civil war against orso. Going off to war in the north without closed council permission could kick off an Angland/North vs union war.

[Veltigar]

I'm surprised by the low opinions on Stour. He struck me as a very dangerous man indeed. The way I interpreted his character, he sort of felt like an amalgamation of his father's intelligence and his uncle's martial prowess. Think Bethod, but then without the need of a Logen to serve as his champion and enforcer.

His trouble then lay mostly in the fact that he didn't learn humility yet. In a country as the north, he leaned into the warrior's side of things which is valued much more than his father's cunning. That's why he became so haughty and vicious as well, because he thought he could get away with it (it doesn't speak to his moral fiber, but this is Joe's universe after all).

His defeat in the circle then, even if it doesn't have permanent repercussions physically, will change his style I think. He'll remain brash, but I believe he's going to play Leo as a fiddle through the whole 'macho/storybook' I-owe-you-my-life kind of sentimentality Leo was playing on. He's one to watch I'd say. 

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Veltigar said:

I'm surprised by the low opinions on Stour. He struck me as a very dangerous man indeed. The way I interpreted his character, he sort of felt like an amalgamation of his father's intelligence and his uncle's martial prowess. Think Bethod, but then without the need of a Logen to serve as his champion and enforcer.

His trouble then lay mostly in the fact that he didn't learn humility yet. In a country as the north, he leaned into the warrior's side of things which is valued much more than his father's cunning. That's why he became so haughty and vicious as well, because he thought he could get away with it (it doesn't speak to his moral fiber, but this is Joe's universe after all).

His defeat in the circle then, even if it doesn't have permanent repercussions physically, will change his style I think. He'll remain brash, but I believe he's going to play Leo as a fiddle through the whole 'macho/storybook' I-owe-you-my-life kind of sentimentality Leo was playing on. He's one to watch I'd say. 

I'm with you in that Joe's characters are rarely as they first seem and given stour is set up as a ridiculous villain i expect him to either become far more dangerous or dead early on. Stour admitted himself he gained more with a well placed knife than all his battles.

And he has calder and clover as advisors. Clover is probably going to be in a stronger position than he's ever been in so it'll be fascinating to see how ruthless he can be if stour uses him correctly.

I also like the mirroring with stour and Leo. Both have really intelligent parents yet they themselves are straightforward. I'm wondering whether Leo will fail having won in the circle while Stour wins having lost?

[Gaston de Foix]

Question: where are the Shanka? 

[Maithanet]

16 hours ago, red snow said:

I guess all witnesses are dead so Calder and clover could cook up some excuse eg wonderful killed scale or union/protectorate assassin? 

Stour doesn't have to go with "i killed my uncle"

If Stour was planning on keeping his murder of Scale a secret, he did this in a very, very stupid way.  There are a bunch of people involved, no fall guy set up to take the blame, no meaningful other suspects, and no alibi.  I mean, he can say he didn't do it, but why would anybody believe him?  I think it's a lot more likely that he just admits he did it, and says he's a better, stronger king that Scale, and thus deserves the throne. 

4 hours ago, red snow said:

I'm with you in that Joe's characters are rarely as they first seem and given stour is set up as a ridiculous villain i expect him to either become far more dangerous or dead early on. Stour admitted himself he gained more with a well placed knife than all his battles.

I suppose that's possible, but I feel like Clover's POV really hammered home the idea that this wasn't just an act, that Stour actually is this bloodthirsty.  He burns empty houses even when nobody is watching.  He burned Uffrith even though he was explicitly told not to, and they were about to occupy it.  If he's actually a methodical thinker, he's hiding it pretty deep. 

[Corvinus85]

19 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Question: where are the Shanka? 

Good question. The last we heard of the Shanka was in Red Country where the Dragon People were having to deal with them. They seem to only live in the fringe mountains of the world. 

[Gaston de Foix]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Good question. The last we heard of the Shanka was in Red Country where the Dragon People were having to deal with them. They seem to only live in the fringe mountains of the world. 

True. I meant the Northern Shanka specifically. They used to be a problem in the North, but now, suddenly, not. 

[Caligula_K3]

I think the Shanka are gone because Abercrombie has mainly lost interest in them. Even in The Last Argument of Kings they're dealt with pretty anticlimactically (they fight for Bethod because... reasons? and then they get killed a lot at the Battle in the High Places). But I don't blame Abercrombie for this, because tbh, the Shanka were one of the less interesting parts of his world.

I'm with those who have a low opinion of Stour. He was a pretty one note villain, and I'm not sure I bought his sudden bits of cleverness towards the end. But that last Clover chapter was great and I'm sure the next books will take him in a more interesting direction. 

On the other hand, I think I must be one of the few who enjoyed Vick's POV. She's not my favourite character in the book, sure, and in some ways she is a retread of Glokta, but that character type is pretty rare in fantasy, and the double agent part makes her distinctive to me, and much more interesting than a character like Leo or even Rikke. I'd rank the POVs so far as something like Orso > Savine > Clover > Vick > Rikke > Broad > Leo, with the top three being among Abercrombie's best characters. 

I'm very close to the end of the Heroes now- I just got to Black Dow's death. It's an even better book than I remembered, which is especially impressive because I usually get pretty tired of long battle scenes quickly (the last Wheel of Time book was a huge slog for me).  I think I got into some of the characters more in this read, especially Gorst, Finree, Calder,  Beck, and Craw - I'd always remembered Craw as being pretty dull, and at times he can be a little, but he has a great cast of characters around him, and Dow especially is really well drawn in this one. Thematically it's very tight, though I do wish someone had done a ctl + f of the word "hero" and taken out about half of them. 

[SeanF]

I like Vik as a character, well drawn and believable.

I don't think she's as callous as Glokta was in The First Law.

[Consigliere]

Vick has potential to become a more interesting character but I feel that the character was rather muted in this book compared to most of the others. There's some similarities to Glokta but I think that Vick is primed to reject the current system and join the revolution. 

[Mick of House Guinness]

Didn't Joe say something about rereading TLAK to brush up on the details of how Caurib was killed? Dow split her head with an axe. Maybe she's the woman with the head bound together with gold wire? 

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, Mick of House Guinness said:

Didn't Joe say something about rereading TLAK to brush up on the details of how Caurib was killed? Dow split her head with an axe. Maybe she's the woman with the head bound together with gold wire? 

Oh man, I really hope that's not right.  I understand that sorcerers are hard to kill, but that would be kind of ridiculous. 

[The hairy bear]

On 10/3/2019 at 4:58 PM, Maithanet said:

Yeah, I noticed this and assumed throughout my read that Zuri was in the Inquisition and spying for Glokta. 

If Zuri worked for Glokta, that would mean that he knew about the incest and didn't act on it. I don't see how this could happen, to be honest.

On 10/3/2019 at 7:58 PM, Caligula_K3 said:

I'm almost at the end of my reread of the Heroes. I find it interesting how in that book, just about everyone (Gorst, Finree, all the generals) understands that Bayaz is the real power behind the Union, a fact Savine and Orso and Leo seem completely ignorant of less than twenty years later. Their parents have really failed them.

I agree.

It should be plain obvious to every single Union citizen that Bayaz is the true power behind the throne. It is public knowledge that he was the founder of the Union (Risinau acknowledges so), that he personally choose and crowned the three most emblematic kings of the Union (Harod, Arnault and Casamir), that he was instrumental in proclaiming Jezal king in the Open Council, and that he personally exterminated the Gurkish assault force while personally destroying half of the Agriont in the process. Everyone should realize that he is immortal and has the power to level the Adua when he wants.

With this in mind, it makes little sense that Rikke treats Bayaz as some weirdo, Savine asking Glokta "What the hell has Bayaz to do with anything", or that Orso says to his father "You shouldn't indulge that old fool". Even if their parents didn't explain them the specifics, it should be common knowledge in the Union how powerful he is.

On 10/3/2019 at 12:10 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Then why not go with the white face then rather than the dark foreign face that would garner immediate mistrust from the society she’s supposedly trying to infiltrate?

We saw in the trilogy that Bayaz was weakened by the use of magic. Perhaps Zuri can take forms for some period of time with some effort, but to maintain another form permanently would be unfeasible.

Sulfur also seems to have one "true form", and use other faces only sporadically.

On 10/3/2019 at 1:51 PM, red snow said:

I thought Orso was excellent. It's so refreshing to read about a character in Joe's world who is capable, decent and likeable.

 

This being Joe's world, he still has two books for either becoming evil and depicable, or being utterly fucked up by the greater powers.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 10/3/2019 at 5:59 AM, Consigliere said:

I agree, a white face would have been safer but, assuming Zuri is a shape-shifting Eater, she likely went with the dark skin precisely because dark-skinned lady's companions have become a must have fashion accessory in Adua.

Must have might be a little bit of stretch. Glokta was the one who gave Zuri to Savine suggesting she at least didn’t think it was imperative to get a dark woman else lose some social standing.

On 10/3/2019 at 5:59 AM, Consigliere said:

Even if Savine was racist, given Zuri's extreme competence, I'd assume racist Savine would still have elevated her to show others that she has the best fashion accessory. Another interesting bit, it was Glokta who introduced Zuri to Savine. 

Plenty people, have been denied the ability to prove their competency because of their race by their employer.

It’d be a profound risk to think Savine would be particularly enlightened on racial politics. She was(in comparison to her fellow nobles), but still there’s little reason to think she would. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 10/3/2019 at 7:52 AM, Gaston de Foix said:

There were always Gurkish immigrants in the Union (remember the Gurkish dentist?).  Now it seems a substantial minority population in the city.  So not so out so place at all.  And if Adua becomes like revolutionary Paris, then the Gurkish will be a prominent faction advocating for equality. 

Yeah there being dark and black people in the union isn’t the issue. The issue comes what the majority or at least the Demographic who controls society sees when dealing with people of a Darker complexion. Which often in this society(and often in real life), a potential enemy, or savage. 

14 hours ago, SeanF said:

I like Vik as a character, well drawn and believable.

I don't think she's as callous as Glokta was in The First Law.

I would disagree. Glokta while be a torturer had shown some degree of empathy I’d say surpasses Vik. He does give advice to Jezal at the behest of West’s request after thinking he’d abandoned him. Although what he did in Dagoska was pointless he did try to save/spare some. And even voiced objections when he thought the emissary he was supposed to torture was innocent and for that telling the the truth. He even initially told Jezal they’d work to help the common man where they could when Bayaz isn’t looking. He’s still evil imo but I find him(in the first law) to be less callous than Vick whose one kind act so far is helping save a boy she’d nearly got tortured and killed through her betrayal. 

Still it’s the first book. She may surprise me.

10 hours ago, Maithanet said:

Oh man, I really hope that's not right.  I understand that sorcerers are hard to kill, but that would be kind of ridiculous. 

Yeah bringing back a dead character who died like this almost never plays well imo. It dramatically reduces the tension of the story.

8 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

With this in mind, it makes little sense that Rikke treats Bayaz as some weirdo, Savine asking Glokta "What the hell has Bayaz to do with anything", or that Orso saying his father "You shouldn't indulge that old fool". Even if their parents didn't explain them the specifics, it should be common knowledge in the Union how powerful he is.

Yes. They’re acting like the nobility did in the the First law. As if he’s just some benign clown. When the fact that he’s still alive is quite honestly enough reason to greet him with awe.  Hell I’m surprised we don’t see cults springing up in his honor, or at least more people talking the possibility of god given his entire backstory would point to being ones. 

Hell, Glockta was a middle management at best in the Inquisition who had no political allies, no military allies, and universally despised before Bayaz chose him manage the Union. 

Like no one should think him suddenly gaining control of the country alone realistic.

It literally makes more sense that the immortal wizard whose discovered and crowned the last King, is the true master of the Union.

15 hours ago, Maithanet said:

If Stour was planning on keeping his murder of Scale a secret, he did this in a very, very stupid way.  There are a bunch of people involved, no fall guy set up to take the blame, no meaningful other suspects, and no alibi.  I mean, he can say he didn't do it, but why would anybody believe him?  I think it's a lot more likely that he just admits he did it, and says he's a better, stronger king that Scale, and thus deserves the throne. 

An idiot whose learned absolutely nothing from his defeat. Patience was not the thing that cost him his victory. Too little control of his blood lust. He did not accept Leo’s challenge because he was patient. He did not prolong the battle because he was patient. He did both because he’s a sadistic gloyhound. 

He could have easily poisoned Stale and used the outrage caused by it to direct his allies to pursue any war he’d want to wage with the Union. Rather than being the traitorous kinslayer(Scale was probably seen more a father to Stour than Calder), he’d be seen as the avenging hero.  But more enemies means more fighting. Means more killing. I guess in the end that’s enough for the man who fashions himself the next bloodynine. But it makes for a poor leader. There’s a reason the Hilltribes wanted him to Bethod’s successor. The north would quickly become fragmented and fighting. The guy has a history of killing/trying to those close to him for no reason-including his  allies. 

[A True Kaniggit]

The problem with Stour is he's an insane MFer who, if he actually caught Rikke, wanted to (I'm gonna abridge this a little) , ".....strip her,whip her, pull her teeth out.....get some Thralls to fuck her.....or maybe I'd get my horse to fuck her.....and cut the bloody cross in her, and put a bucket underneath to catch her guts, and send 'em to the other side" 

Damn, even the abridged version is really disgusting.

Man is such an unbelievable arsehole even other Northmen are going "WTF is wrong with this guy?"

Leo really should have just killed him. Not sure how you're supposed to trust and be friends with such an obvious sociopath.

Edit: Edited asshole to arsehole. For the books. 

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

The problem with Stour is he's an insane MFer who, if he actually caught Rikke, wanted to (I'm gonna abridge this a little) , ".....strip her,whip her, pull her teeth out.....get some Thralls to fuck her.....or maybe I'd get my horse to fuck her.....and cut the bloody cross in her, and put a bucket underneath to catch her guts, and send 'em to the other side" 

Damn, even the abridged version is really disgusting.

Man is such an unbelievable arsehole even other Northmen are going "WTF is wrong with this guy?"

Leo really should have just killed him. Not sure how you're supposed to trust and be friends with such an obvious sociopath.

Edit: Edited asshole to arsehole. For the books. 

The guts were to be mixed with herbs, so that the Dogman wouldn't know what was in the box, before he opened it.

Yes, Stour is disgusting.