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A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)

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I'd always assumed the B9 has a demonic or spirit component to it, mainly due to the way it seems to save him from wounds that should be fatal. The personality change with the berserker state I can certainly accept just being his inner sadist coming out.

I don't think its by any means definitive but its hardly unsupported that the guy with a demonic connection and able to see spirits, who repeatedly defies fatal wounds with a simultaneous huge power up might have something supernatural going on. I don't think he's immune to ageing though, just that he'd be a very dangerous old man if the B9 came out.

I also don't remember him seeming in control of it in RC - the only time I remember seeing it is in the duel with Glama and I thought his manner was basically "don't do this, you're going to get fucked up if you draw the B9 out to play". I might be forgetting more B9 after that point, but everything prior to it is just Logens base level prowess.

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On 10/8/2019 at 5:09 AM, Stubby said:

Did anyone else catch Broad running into Logen in the line waiting for work at the brewery?

Shame he didn't describe the number of fingers too.

I guess if logen survived becoming an eater his ageing could have slowed/reverse.

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Posted (edited)

the interpretive problem with the long eye is not only do we have a zone of indistinction inhabited by intuitions that appear to be precise and literal (the arrow) and by those taken to be figurative ('the weaver' one is literally about the purported revolutionary designated as the weaver or is figuratively about someone who is like a weaver in some abstract way?), but also that, within the subzone of figuration, there is a threshold of indecision between the metonymic (the sun) and the metaphoric (the wolf, the lion).  

that last presents a difficulty in reading the sun/wolf/lion/lamb/owl prophetic, as some of these items sound in metonymy and some in metaphor, complicating the pattern.  if lamb is metonymic, we need an association (such as a banner) rather than a likeness (such as being pacifist, which applies to orso as much as to broad in the end)--though this is problematized by the explanation of shivers' name--not a (perhaps?) metaphoric designation that he causes adrenal responses in adversaries, but a metonymic designation invoking how he was cold one time, as i recall it.

the weakness of metaphorical readings of lamb and owl is that they assume that this setting has adopted our specific symbolisms related to the ovine and the strigine.  we need not make this assumption regarding the leonine and lupine--the setting has supplied the metaphor by giving names to characters on the (i assume) basis that they are somehow similar to the abstract characteristics of the lion and the wolf in  the setting--though, again, perhaps there is a confusion of interpretive registers here, and these are merely interpretive associations--leo has lions somewhere literally in his ambit, or stour has sex with wolves, &c.

all that said, owl has this linguistic history:

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Old English ule "owl," from Proto-Germanic *uwwalon- (source also of Middle Dutch, Dutch uil, Old High German uwila, German Eule, Old Norse ugla), a diminutive of PIE root *u(wa)l-, which is imitative of a wail or an owl's hoot (compare Latin ulula "owl;" also see ululation). The bird was employed proverbially and figuratively in reference to nocturnal habits, ugliness, and appearance of gravity and wisdom (often ironic).

if on the one hand the angland/midderland setting shares these old english/germanic abstract characterizations of the bird, then the persons to fill the slot might share those (potentially ironized) items at the end.  

if on the other hand the owl bit is meant to draw on a latinate tradition, we might look to:

Quote

strix strigis, f, στρίγξ, a screech-owl (superstitiously regarded as a vampire or harpy): volucres . . . Est illis strigibus nomen, O.: strigis infames alae (used in incantations)

the ancient world's mythology accuses this creature of pedophagy, witchcraft, vampirism.

lamb is even worse, having symbolic confusion even when looking at the germanic side alone:

Quote

The Old English plural was sometimes lambru. A symbol of Christ (Lamb of God), typified by the paschal lamb, from late Old English. Applied to gentle or innocent persons (especially young Church members) from late Old English; from mid-15c. of persons easy to cheat ("fleece"). Also sometimes used ironically for cruel or rough characters (such as Kirke's Lambs in Monmouth's rebellion, 1684-86, "an ironical allusion to the device of the Paschal Lamb on their flag" [OED]); Farmer & Henley say "specifically applied to Nottingham roughs, and hence to bludgeon men at elections." Diminutive form lambie is attested from 1718. Lamb's-wool is from 1550s as a noun, 1825 (also lambswool) as an adjective.

sounds like it could be broad, then, to include both the pacific side, as sworn to his daughter, and the thuggish side, for savine.

Edited by sologdin

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Can Joe respond to the above? Thank you.

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We don't need metaphorical interpretations of lamb, Orso has been called the Young Lamb in the text.

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All that talk has me wondering something... Where would a lion live in the Circle of the World?

Most of the description we get of Gurkhal seems to be more desert than grassy plains.  Nothing of the Old Empire or the Far Country seemed to be an African steppes analogue.  Certainly not the North... :dunno:  

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Orso has been called the Young Lamb in the text.

right.  obviously that designation is not meant literally--but is it metaphorical or metonymic? is he like a lamb, or associated somehow with lambs?

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Posted (edited)

Didn’t read the standalones until after a little hatred and I think Calder is my favorite character now, supplanting Glokta, even though he had Forley killed. Hopefully he becomes a POV again.

Edited by The Last Storm

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1 hour ago, sologdin said:

Orso has been called the Young Lamb in the text.

right.  obviously that designation is not meant literally--but is it metaphorical or metonymic? is he like a lamb, or associated somehow with lambs?

Or could he become like Lamb from Red Country? Doubtful

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37 minutes ago, Joe Abercrombie said:

I agree with some parts and not others.

But where do lions live?!!?  

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31 minutes ago, Rhom said:

But where do lions live?!!?  

In lionarium.

What I'm becoming more curious about is: how did Tunney elevate himself to be a pal with a prince? The way I imagined him, he seemed more of a cynic, trying to survive and make a living by keeping his head low. Carousing with a prince seems the opposite of that. Though, he would be in his, what, 50s, 60s now?

 

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32 minutes ago, Jerry Drake said:

In lionarium.

What I'm becoming more curious about is: how did Tunney elevate himself to be a pal with a prince? The way I imagined him, he seemed more of a cynic, trying to survive and make a living by keeping his head low. Carousing with a prince seems the opposite of that. Though, he would be in his, what, 50s, 60s now?

Hard to say he was elevated, since Orso didn't participate in any state business up until now, so Tunny was just his chaperon. He is the most famous corporal in the Union army. Likely a combination of his long-time experience and strong lack of ambition got him the position. I'm more curious as to why Orso doesn't have proper bodyguards, like a couple of Knights of the Body, given how he just goes out in the city all the time.

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16 hours ago, Rhom said:

All that talk has me wondering something... Where would a lion live in the Circle of the World?

Most of the description we get of Gurkhal seems to be more desert than grassy plains.  Nothing of the Old Empire or the Far Country seemed to be an African steppes analogue.  Certainly not the North... :dunno:  

Glokta Sr. says that he saw lions when he was on campaign in Gurkhul, so there are lions there. Kanta is a huge continent, so there's enough room for plenty of biomes: deserts, steppes, savannas, rainforests, etc.

That said, there used to be lions in Europe well into our era, until they were extinguished by hunters. Fossils have been found as far in the North as Germany or England. So I guess it would be realistic to find lions all around the circle of the world.

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21 hours ago, sologdin said:

Orso has been called the Young Lamb in the text.

right.  obviously that designation is not meant literally--but is it metaphorical or metonymic? is he like a lamb, or associated somehow with lambs?

It's almost certainly "like a lamb", isn't it?

Seems that the nickname exists to draw a contrast to the young lion, who is warlike and most decidedly not like a lamb.

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