Jump to content
Crazydog7

A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)

Recommended Posts

On 10/17/2019 at 5:52 PM, Pilusmagnus said:

Bayaz is definitely not an overarching planner who is fourty steps ahead of everyone else. He just knows how to use chaos to strengthen the system. When he starts to lose power, he creates a crisis and mostly improvises from there. The fact that he is behind all the events doesn't mean he intends them to happen, but that he is working through them with his magic. He appears to be in total control not in a Palpatine kind of way ("everything that has transpired has done so according to my design") but because he knows even the most unpredictable action taken by one of his pawns can be turned to his advantage. It's also clear from the way he acts in the first trilogy that he's far from entirely rational and calculating; he's also incredibly rash and petty.

I think this is a good reading of it all. His long-term plans do not survive contact with the enemy, so he improvises and does everything he can to manage the transition as deliberately as he can. He strives to appear to be in control at all time, but he's clever enough to know that he's still dealing with people and that a network of control is hard to maintain. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Consigliere said:

It's a hereditary monarchy but it's unclear whether women are excluded completely from the line of succession although there has never been a High Queen ruling in her own right. If there is no clear heir then the Open Council elects the High King - this has only occurred twice (Jezal and Arnault). 

 

Thanks. Seeing as Savine is Jezal's oldest child, I was wondering how that could affect the succession. Kind of how Jezal became king even as a bastard,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finished it today, had four thoughts:

1) I think Bayaz is definitely the Weaver. He seems very taken with the industrialisation of the Union and all its innovation and progress and I suspect he wants a Union where the professional classes hold the power that the nobility currently hold. I remember in the initial trilogy he seemed to accept the established order of things, part of which was needing the nobility to do the leading, but in the new world they're less necessary and growing more obstructive. He can probably exert more control over a newer, more capitalist regime through Valint and Balk than he can the current Open Council, as well. 

2) I'm interested in what's happened with Khalul, Zacharus and Cawneil. Khalul's realm has gone to shit, Bayaz has some sort of deal going with him (if he didn't obliquely mean he's dead), and now there's some sort of dispute with Zacharus and Cawneil that involves them being stuck in the past and blind to the future. Are they mad he used the Seed? That he unleashed Ferro on the world? Does he have some sort of truce/agreement with Khalul they can't accept?

3) Selest (Savine's investor rival) seems physically similar to Judge. I believe there are a few descriptions of Selest's elaborate red hair and Judge's crazy red hair, the jewels they wear, and they're both small and pale. Not sure if that's worth anything.

4) I think Isern refers to Rikke as an owl at some stage, or being as mad as an owl. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Drunkard said:

Finished it today, had four thoughts:

1) I think Bayaz is definitely the Weaver. He seems very taken with the industrialisation of the Union and all its innovation and progress and I suspect he wants a Union where the professional classes hold the power that the nobility currently hold. I remember in the initial trilogy he seemed to accept the established order of things, part of which was needing the nobility to do the leading, but in the new world they're less necessary and growing more obstructive. He can probably exert more control over a newer, more capitalist regime through Valint and Balk than he can the current Open Council, as well. 

2) I'm interested in what's happened with Khalul, Zacharus and Cawneil. Khalul's realm has gone to shit, Bayaz has some sort of deal going with him (if he didn't obliquely mean he's dead), and now there's some sort of dispute with Zacharus and Cawneil that involves them being stuck in the past and blind to the future. Are they mad he used the Seed? That he unleashed Ferro on the world? Does he have some sort of truce/agreement with Khalul they can't accept?

3) Selest (Savine's investor rival) seems physically similar to Judge. I believe there are a few descriptions of Selest's elaborate red hair and Judge's crazy red hair, the jewels they wear, and they're both small and pale. Not sure if that's worth anything.

4) I think Isern refers to Rikke as an owl at some stage, or being as mad as an owl. 

As for #3 wouldn’t she have been wearing a wig at the party at the end? Also, it wouldn’t make much sense for her to be the Judge. It would be against her own interests to shut down business in Valbeck if she’s as heavily invested there as Savine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really enjoyed the book -  the return to this world was certainly worth it! Like all the new characters and also how the old ones are being handled, despite the strong feeling that those who managed to peacefully die are the lucky ones, heh.

I have to say that after some reflection, I can't agree that the Valbeck uprising can be compared with the French Revolution, because the latter was aimed at the first 2 Estates and their many privileges, but particularly those concerning taxation and  land ownership. It was by no means a "workers revolution", nor was it aimed at industrialists or the wealthy in general. Enclosures didn't play a role in it - they were more of a British thing, which the crown actually tried to oppose, but the Parliament and the more allfluent farmers supported, as well as the noble landholders.

And then, there is the big question when stuff like that comes up in SF - is something like a French Revolution (or an American one, for that matter) really feasible in a world where Ancient Athens and Ancient Rome weren't such deeply embedded cultural touchstones and inextricable part of  education? 

Is the Weaver Bayaz? Because if he wanted to get rid of the nobility, but retain and boost the industry, this wasn't the route to take. It certainly seems like he killed Jezal too. I disagree that Bayaz would profit from establishment of a republic in the Union, since it is much easier to be the puppeteer behind a few key figures, than behind an ever shifiting and fairly chaotic political landscape of an elective government.  And besides, see above. Where would Bayaz even get an idea of a republic/democracy from?

It does seem odd how the Union has jumped into Industrial Age without Enlightment or even adoption of firearms. Though that last seems to be imminent. In fact, I fully expect to see the floundering of northern warrior culture in this trilogy, in some doomed last war against a "modern" army, like in "The Last Samurai" movie. And what better folks to preside over it than Stour and Leo, who are totally going to team up and attack the Union? Poor Finree...

I am a bit confused by Glokta's governance, though. Were those 3 disastrous wars with Styria ordered by Bayaz? Because otherwise, why? And surely he is too intelligent to think that just keeping a tight lid on things is enough to prevent an eventual explosion?

What is more, I really don't understand his handling of his family, which he seems reasonably fond of. He is the most hated man of the Union, which could easily make his wife and daughter the targets of revenge once he is gone. You'd think that he would have prepared them for it and provided some exit strategies. Instead, he allowed Savine to ruffle enough feathers to also become hated and acquire a number of enemies in her own right. She even is prancing around without any bodyguards! Now, I did think that "Zuri" who returned with her brothers was an Eater, but maybe there is something to the idea that Zuri wasn one to begin with and that's why Glokta introduced her to his daughter and also didn't insist on bodyguards. Because if anyone in the Union knows how to detect an Eater it is him. He still goofed when he didn't prevent Savine from going to Valbeck without Zuri and bodyguards) in this case. 

 to be continued.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Maia said:

I really enjoyed the book -  the return to this world was certainly worth it! Like all the new characters and also how the old ones are being handled, despite the strong feeling that those who managed to peacefully die are the lucky ones, heh.

I have to say that after some reflection, I can't agree that the Valbeck uprising can be compared with the French Revolution, because the latter was aimed at the first 2 Estates and their many privileges, but particularly those concerning taxation and  land ownership. It was by no means a "workers revolution", nor was it aimed at industrialists or the wealthy in general. Enclosures didn't play a role in it - they were more of a British thing, which the crown actually tried to oppose, but the Parliament and the more allfluent farmers supported, as well as the noble landholders.

And then, there is the big question when stuff like that comes up in SF - is something like a French Revolution (or an American one, for that matter) really feasible in a world where Ancient Athens and Ancient Rome weren't such deeply embedded cultural touchstones and inextricable part of  education? 

Is the Weaver Bayaz? Because if he wanted to get rid of the nobility, but retain and boost the industry, this wasn't the route to take. It certainly seems like he killed Jezal too. I disagree that Bayaz would profit from establishment of a republic in the Union, since it is much easier to be the puppeteer behind a few key figures, than behind an ever shifiting and fairly chaotic political landscape of an elective government.  And besides, see above. Where would Bayaz even get an idea of a republic/democracy from?

It does seem odd how the Union has jumped into Industrial Age without Enlightment or even adoption of firearms. Though that last seems to be imminent. In fact, I fully expect to see the floundering of northern warrior culture in this trilogy, in some doomed last war against a "modern" army, like in "The Last Samurai" movie. And what better folks to preside over it than Stour and Leo, who are totally going to team up and attack the Union? Poor Finree...

I am a bit confused by Glokta's governance, though. Were those 3 disastrous wars with Styria ordered by Bayaz? Because otherwise, why? And surely he is too intelligent to think that just keeping a tight lid on things is enough to prevent an eventual explosion?

What is more, I really don't understand his handling of his family, which he seems reasonably fond of. He is the most hated man of the Union, which could easily make his wife and daughter the targets of revenge once he is gone. You'd think that he would have prepared them for it and provided some exit strategies. Instead, he allowed Savine to ruffle enough feathers to also become hated and acquire a number of enemies in her own right. She even is prancing around without any bodyguards! Now, I did think that "Zuri" who returned with her brothers was an Eater, but maybe there is something to the idea that Zuri wasn one to begin with and that's why Glokta introduced her to his daughter and also didn't insist on bodyguards. Because if anyone in the Union knows how to detect an Eater it is him. He still goofed when he didn't prevent Savine from going to Valbeck without Zuri and bodyguards) in this case. 

 to be continued.

The uprising is not directly comparable to the French or Russian revolutions, but there are elements of both.  Industrialists and inventors were specifically targeted in the French Revolution, but industrialisation had not progressed as far as it has in the Union.  Class conflict and military defeat triggered the Russian revolution.  There's a lot of British and American industrial conflict too in the uprising.

Crucially, the army remained loyal to the government.  A revolution can't succeed until a large part of the army is willing to defect.  If there are widespread grievances in the Union's army, that's when the leaders must watch out.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, SeanF said:

Crucially, the army remained loyal to the government.  A revolution can't succeed until a large part of the army is willing to defect.  If there are widespread grievances in the Union's army, that's when the leaders must watch out.

I think that’s obviously being set up though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/23/2019 at 6:20 AM, SeanF said:

  Industrialists and inventors were specifically targeted in the French Revolution, but industrialisation had not progressed as far as it has in the Union.

Yes it has. They had all the industries mentioned in ALH at the same or greater level of mechanization plus mass production of firearms and cannon. This last was the reason for mass conscription working so well for them militarily during the Revolution. They even had printed cloth and wallpaper production. Now, it can be that the situation of the workers wasn't all thast bad at the time, compared to the peasants or something along these lines, and, of course, the nobility wasn't involved in manufacturing like it is in the Union. But there was nothing like the indiscriminate attack on all half-way prosperous people like in Valbeck during the French Revolution. Also, it seems like iRL personalities involved played fairly defining roles in the shaping of the events . If Louis XVI had been more intelligent, more decisive and didn't whole-heartedly believe in the divine right of kings, things could have been streered in a less explosive direction or even perhaps forestalled entirely.

I hope that Abercombie doesn't succomb to the temptation that many fantasy authors unfortunately can't resist of just plugging in a facsimile of a RL historical event into their secondary world, when the societies they imagined don't provide the same foundations for such developments. I mean, some kind of unpheaval is obviously being set up, but without the Enlightment, without the legacy of Athenian "democracy" and Roman republic, copying the French Revolution would feel quite contrived, IMHO. Not to mention that Orso is nothing like Louis XVI.

Though, the more I think about it, the more I wonder what Glokta could have been about for the almost 3 decades. Yes, he is now old and ill and could be slipping, but honestly, in hindsight he seems to not have been very competent throughout. I kinda hope that at least some of it was on purpose, in a long-running plot to get rid of Bayaz, but we'll see. The fact that he didn't prepare Ardee and Savine for what is surely coming seriously worries me.

The Judge has some really interesting blue tatoos on her legs, IIRC, or maybe on only one of them? And those black eyes? She reminds me of Bethod's sorceress. I hope that Carlot dan Eider is out of it, either moved further away from the Union or quietly dead of natural causes. She has suffered enough.

I did notice one of the rioters at the factory that Savine was visiting conspiciously eating an apple, as Joru Sulfur later also does - could it have been him? Is the time-table for him then turning up in the North and coming back in time for the executions of the Breakers remotely feasible? And it seems that the orders did come directly from Glokta, so it isn't like he could have been unaware. I mean, this would give the Burners that much more clout in the future. 

Rikke's vision about great doors opening and revealing empty dusty space beyond them - I wonder if it could allude to somebody opening the Gates again and discovering that the demons which were supposed to be locked behind them are gone?

 

On 10/20/2019 at 1:35 AM, Astromech said:

Thanks. Seeing as Savine is Jezal's oldest child, I was wondering how that could affect the succession. Kind of how Jezal became king even as a bastard,

I wonder if Savine can't be "an owl eating the lamb", somehow. How is her name pronounced? I'd say that normally she wouldn't have been considered, but there is a lot of anti-Styrian sentiment, not to mention anti-Orso one and, of course the leading nobles could see marriage to her as an opportunity to gain the throne for themselves.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Maia said:

Though, the more I think about it, the more I wonder what Glokta could have been about for the almost 3 decades. Yes, he is now old and ill and could be slipping, but honestly, in hindsight he seems to not have been very competent throughout. I kinda hope that at least some of it was on purpose, in a long-running plot to get rid of Bayaz, but we'll see.

Yeah, it does seem a bit odd. That he would completely miss how close a major city like Valbeck was to a major uprising is a little strange. Also if he's interested in propping up the status quo letting Orso become as unpopular as he has seems like a pretty bad idea. Even if he does think Orso's as useless as he makes out it wouldn't be that hard to inflate his reputation a bit, historically people have tended to like youthful heirs with little real reason to so long as they're given an excuse, and executing all the Breakers immediately after he'd promised them amnesty seems like a deliberate attempt to undermine him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Maia said:

 

 

I wonder if Savine can't be "an owl eating the lamb", somehow. How is her name pronounced? I'd say that normally she wouldn't have been considered, but there is a lot of anti-Styrian sentiment, not to mention anti-Orso one and, of course the leading nobles could see marriage to her as an opportunity to gain the throne for themselves.

 

I've been pronouncing it similarly to the name Sabine. So "Sa veen".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Maia said:

Yes it has. They had all the industries mentioned in ALH at the same or greater level of mechanization plus mass production of firearms and cannon. This last was the reason for mass conscription working so well for them militarily during the Revolution. They even had printed cloth and wallpaper production. Now, it can be that the situation of the workers wasn't all thast bad at the time, compared to the peasants or something along these lines, and, of course, the nobility wasn't involved in manufacturing like it is in the Union. But there was nothing like the indiscriminate attack on all half-way prosperous people like in Valbeck during the French Revolution. Also, it seems like iRL personalities involved played fairly defining roles in the shaping of the events . If Louis XVI had been more intelligent, more decisive and didn't whole-heartedly believe in the divine right of kings, things could have been streered in a less explosive direction or even perhaps forestalled entirely.

I hope that Abercombie doesn't succomb to the temptation that many fantasy authors unfortunately can't resist of just plugging in a facsimile of a RL historical event into their secondary world, when the societies they imagined don't provide the same foundations for such developments. I mean, some kind of unpheaval is obviously being set up, but without the Enlightment, without the legacy of Athenian "democracy" and Roman republic, copying the French Revolution would feel quite contrived, IMHO. Not to mention that Orso is nothing like Louis XVI.

Though, the more I think about it, the more I wonder what Glokta could have been about for the almost 3 decades. Yes, he is now old and ill and could be slipping, but honestly, in hindsight he seems to not have been very competent throughout. I kinda hope that at least some of it was on purpose, in a long-running plot to get rid of Bayaz, but we'll see. The fact that he didn't prepare Ardee and Savine for what is surely coming seriously worries me.

The Judge has some really interesting blue tatoos on her legs, IIRC, or maybe on only one of them? And those black eyes? She reminds me of Bethod's sorceress. I hope that Carlot dan Eider is out of it, either moved further away from the Union or quietly dead of natural causes. She has suffered enough.

I did notice one of the rioters at the factory that Savine was visiting conspiciously eating an apple, as Joru Sulfur later also does - could it have been him? Is the time-table for him then turning up in the North and coming back in time for the executions of the Breakers remotely feasible? And it seems that the orders did come directly from Glokta, so it isn't like he could have been unaware. I mean, this would give the Burners that much more clout in the future. 

Rikke's vision about great doors opening and revealing empty dusty space beyond them - I wonder if it could allude to somebody opening the Gates again and discovering that the demons which were supposed to be locked behind them are gone?

 

I wonder if Savine can't be "an owl eating the lamb", somehow. How is her name pronounced? I'd say that normally she wouldn't have been considered, but there is a lot of anti-Styrian sentiment, not to mention anti-Orso one and, of course the leading nobles could see marriage to her as an opportunity to gain the throne for themselves.

 

It's good that the owl appears to be more ambiguous than rhe rest of the prophecy. 

I've been leaning towards owl representing wisdom which does cast a wide net as it could be Bayaz through to an older wiser long eye Rikke. Rikke would be fun as there'd be a certain amount of irony in her being the subject of her own cryptic prophecy.

I do tend to agree that Savine will end up on different sides to Orso just to highlight the tragedy of them probably being a force for good if not for the pesky issue of being siblings. I'm still hoping Orso can be a good king but i suspect irrespective he will be facing a revolution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Maia said:

Yes it has. They had all the industries mentioned in ALH at the same or greater level of mechanization plus mass production of firearms and cannon. This last was the reason for mass conscription working so well for them militarily during the Revolution. They even had printed cloth and wallpaper production. Now, it can be that the situation of the workers wasn't all thast bad at the time, compared to the peasants or something along these lines, and, of course, the nobility wasn't involved in manufacturing like it is in the Union. But there was nothing like the indiscriminate attack on all half-way prosperous people like in Valbeck during the French Revolution. Also, it seems like iRL personalities involved played fairly defining roles in the shaping of the events . If Louis XVI had been more intelligent, more decisive and didn't whole-heartedly believe in the divine right of kings, things could have been streered in a less explosive direction or even perhaps forestalled entirely.

I hope that Abercombie doesn't succomb to the temptation that many fantasy authors unfortunately can't resist of just plugging in a facsimile of a RL historical event into their secondary world, when the societies they imagined don't provide the same foundations for such developments. I mean, some kind of unpheaval is obviously being set up, but without the Enlightment, without the legacy of Athenian "democracy" and Roman republic, copying the French Revolution would feel quite contrived, IMHO. Not to mention that Orso is nothing like Louis XVI.

 

Thanks.  I think the uprising combines elements of different uprisings and very violent industrial disputes.

Louis' problem was that he was ineffectual, IMHO.  He never had the ruthlessness of a Napoleon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So now it's officially that Coleem West died shortly after Battle of Adua. Sigh, I kinda hoped that he at least lived for some years...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, apovsic said:

So now it's officially that Coleem West died shortly after Battle of Adua. Sigh, I kinda hoped that he at least lived for some years...

He basically had radiation poisoning. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

He basically had radiation poisoning. 

Well yes, but I thought that when his dead wasn't show on page, maybe he could live. I mean he was a main charachter in first trilogy and then there is even less of a closore as many of side characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, apovsic said:

So now it's officially that Coleem West died shortly after Battle of Adua. Sigh, I kinda hoped that he at least lived for some years...

Afraid so.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/25/2019 at 2:43 PM, ljkeane said:

Yeah, it does seem a bit odd. That he would completely miss how close a major city like Valbeck was to a major uprising is a little strange. Also if he's interested in propping up the status quo letting Orso become as unpopular as he has seems like a pretty bad idea. Even if he does think Orso's as useless as he makes out it wouldn't be that hard to inflate his reputation a bit, historically people have tended to like youthful heirs with little real reason to so long as they're given an excuse, and executing all the Breakers immediately after he'd promised them amnesty seems like a deliberate attempt to undermine him.

Given that we all think that Bayaz is the Weaver and behind everything, it would be a pretty nice twist if this was all Glokta's way of getting Adua out from under Bayaz's thumb.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/24/2019 at 4:15 PM, sologdin said:

who's gonna bolshevize the army?

Superior Pike. His comment to Victarine can be both read as a threat and as a reminder of what happened to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×