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A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)

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7 hours ago, Jerry Drake said:

Superior Pike. His comment to Victarine can be both read as a threat and as a reminder of what happened to them.

I am anticipating Pike's turning on Glokta in this new trilogy. He's just waiting for his opportunity.

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10 minutes ago, Astromech said:

I am anticipating Pike's turning on Glokta in this new trilogy. He's just waiting for his opportunity.

Agreed.  I think Pike (Weaver) is being secretly financed by Bayaz.  That would reconcile the "endless purse of gold" line.  

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"Endless purse of gold" seems to refer to Valint & Balk, i.e. Bayaz. Would be nice if it was something else. Would love another magi to be pulling the strings like Khalul or Zacharus.

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16 hours ago, Astromech said:

"Endless purse of gold" seems to refer to Valint & Balk, i.e. Bayaz. Would be nice if it was something else. Would love another magi to be pulling the strings like Khalul or Zacharus.

I too would much prefer that.

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On 10/28/2019 at 1:36 PM, Gaston de Foix said:

Agreed.  I think Pike (Weaver) is being secretly financed by Bayaz.  That would reconcile the "endless purse of gold" line.  

I got the impression he was actually part of the uprising which is why he killed the higher ups before there was any chance of them spilling anything to Victarine who is still loyal to Glokta. No idea if Bayaz was actively behind stirring up the rebellion but it wouldn't be the first time he's orchestrated a peasant's revolt to suit his own ends.

 

On 10/28/2019 at 2:06 PM, Astromech said:

"Endless purse of gold" seems to refer to Valint & Balk, i.e. Bayaz. Would be nice if it was something else. Would love another magi to be pulling the strings like Khalul or Zacharus.

And it may well be that Bayaz sees it's time to change the power structures with the industrial revolution taking place. Is there any need for a royal family when the union could be run by merchants who in turn could be ruled by the most powerful bank

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Isn't magic also waning? Riding the industrial revolution and technological advances is a good way for Bayaz to retain power.

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On 10/30/2019 at 1:11 AM, Astromech said:

Isn't magic also waning? Riding the industrial revolution and technological advances is a good way for Bayaz to retain power.

I believe that the 'magic is waning' thing is more Abercrombie deciding that it's not that fun to use magic, rather than it being a plot point. Similar to Shanka. That would be for the best I feel, makes for a more interesting read. Better to have characters being able to turn the events through their human based abilities rather than having the person with the most mana script everything. Life can be depressing in it's inevitabilities, but not that depressing hopefully.

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On 10/26/2019 at 2:13 PM, apovsic said:

Well yes, but I thought that when his dead wasn't show on page, maybe he could live. I mean he was a main charachter in first trilogy and then there is even less of a closore as many of side characters.

I thought that there was a very definite and satisfying closure and that it was perfectly clear that he was about to die? In fact, I was surprised that he lived for as long as he did.

 

On 10/27/2019 at 9:43 PM, Caligula_K3 said:

Given that we all think that Bayaz is the Weaver and behind everything, it would be a pretty nice twist if this was all Glokta's way of getting Adua out from under Bayaz's thumb.

I really hope so, because otherwise it looks like Glokta inexplicably got pretty dumb almost as soon as he took over the actual running of the Union. But the way he didn't prepare Savine (or Ardee) for what is surely coming and didn't stop her from going to Valbeck worries me.

 

On 10/29/2019 at 6:00 PM, red snow said:

I got the impression he was actually part of the uprising which is why he killed the higher ups before there was any chance of them spilling anything to Victarine who is still loyal to Glokta.

But the orders to execute the Breaker leaders ASAP did come directly from Glokta himself - and it should have been clear to him how it would bolster the Burner position in the future, so I dunno. Also, there is something very odd going on with Resenau(?), Valbeck's traitorous Inquisition Superior and his staff. The man acts almost hypnothised and how likely would it have been for all of his underlings to loyally follow him into sedition, rather than rat him out? Yet, his Practicals somehow remained his devoted bodyguards throughout and we didn't hear anything about his subordinate Inquisitors at all. However we look at it, Valbeck's Inquisition presence was suspiciously light.

And then, there is the way Glokta handled Leo dan Brock, which was almost calculated to get the latter's hackles  up... Honestly, if not for how a massive societal explosion would put Ardee and Savine directly into the line of fire, I'd have been convinced that Glokta is orchestrating things in order to try to get rid of Bayaz. But maybe he is counting on this very issue to deflect suspicion  and is cold-blooded enough to sacrifice them, in the end.

 

Quote

And it may well be that Bayaz sees it's time to change the power structures with the industrial revolution taking place. Is there any need for a royal family when the union could be run by merchants who in turn could be ruled by the most powerful bank

Is there any reason for Bayaz to think that alternate forms of governance are viable? And sufficiently stable for his purposes in the long term? Also, I disagree that it is easier to rule a republic/democracy behind the scenes than a monarchy or a dictatorship. In the latter case, you'd need just a couple of key figures to run things according to your plans, while the former could be fairly unpredictable.

Getting rid of powerful aristocracy doesn't require a revolution, BTW. I have been listening to the "12 Byzantine Rulers" podcast and Basil II did exactly that in Anatolia via the land ownership reform.

 

On 10/30/2019 at 1:11 AM, Astromech said:

Isn't magic also waning? Riding the industrial revolution and technological advances is a good way for Bayaz to retain power.

Isn't it the other way round, though? That technological development should eventually give people means to eliminate  Bayaz once and for all? It is odd that he doesn't seem to see it. But maybe he just can't be properly killed by conventional means at all. Because otherwise his enthusiasm for the firearms is very misplaced, so say the least.

Edited by Maia

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55 minutes ago, Maia said:

 

Isn't it the other way round, though? That technological development should eventually give people means to eliminate  Bayaz once and for all? It is odd that he doesn't seem to see it. But maybe he just can't be properly killed by conventional means at all. Because otherwise his enthusiasm for the firearms is very misplaced, so say the least.

But if magic is waning that means all of the magi would be weaker. Whoever embraces technological advances would be in a better position. Bayaz realizes that. These advances are simply a means to ends for Bayaz : power.

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1 hour ago, Astromech said:

But if magic is waning that means all of the magi would be weaker. Whoever embraces technological advances would be in a better position.

It also means that he increasingly needs to worry about the non-Magi too, if he can be killed by normal means. I can't help but wonder what would have happened if in the first trilogy somebody knew enough to hack off his head while he was unconscious. Judging by his very cocky attitude and the fact that he continues to travel through troubled regions by his lonesome, presumably not much. Khalul and plenty of Eaters apparently still being around confirm my suspicion that it is very difficult to actually kill active mages, waning of magic or no. Even if he can't be killed, though, widespread technology would eventually put a stop to his ability to dominate the whole region.

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I refuse to believe that Bayaz cannot in fact be killed by lopping off his head.  That would be an incredibly disappointing twist, and IMO not in keeping with the series.  In the first trilogy we saw a few characters that were hard to kill - Fenris could heal half of his body at Wolverine-levels, and one Eater survived a dozen bolts across his body, but both of those characters were killed by relatively normal means. 

I can see the argument that Bayaz is more powerful than either of them, but I still think it would be a really bad twist to make Bayaz extremely difficult or impossible to kill.  That would mean that the brushes with death that Bayaz had in BtaH and LaoK were actually not that serious at all. 

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could always kill him off in a further inversion of gandalf, wherein he falls into an abyss and is resurrected to finish his mission, not by the valar, but by hell.

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31 minutes ago, sologdin said:

could always kill him off in a further inversion of gandalf, wherein he falls into an abyss and is resurrected to finish his mission, not by the valar, but by hell.

I want to see more of the Other Side, so that would be pretty cool.  But that theory held a lot more weight before ALH came out.  There's no indication that's where this trilogy is going, and all the setup is for the industrialization and social forces to be front and center.  To suddenly be fighting against the forces of the Other Side would be completely out of left field. 

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12 minutes ago, sologdin said:

totally.  i guess he's not gandalf, but industrializing sauron. 

Isn't Saruman more of an industrialist than Sauron?  I thought of the Uruk-hai as being an attempt at technological improvement to counter Sauron's superior numbers/strength.  But then my knowledge of LotR is twenty years old. 

And of course, Abercrombie has explicitly said that Bayaz was a Gandalf-inspired character. 

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If we aren’t doing magic... the visions that Rikke has been getting kinda put that at odds.  Especially the one when she forced the eye open.  That felt very much ominous/Chekhov’s gun. :dunno: 

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4 hours ago, Maia said:

I thought that there was a very definite and satisfying closure and that it was perfectly clear that he was about to die? In fact, I was surprised that he lived for as long as he did.

 

Is it? I mean, after his dead it was so little talk about him in the books (from my head, it one mention of him beanig a good marshal froom Tummy?), that it took several books to finaly confirm that he is dead. IMHO that is not a satisfying ending. From literal standpoint, he was a main POV in first trilogy and he deserve something to end his story (not just, oh no he's dying and then yeep he's dead). I also don't like Jezal ending, but there was something in the end, some closure. From world viewpoint, this was the marshal that saved Union. And yet, there is no talk about him, no statue of him described, no streets named after him, ... I just feel that there should be something.

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20 minutes ago, Rhom said:

If we aren’t doing magic... the visions that Rikke has been getting kinda put that at odds.  Especially the one when she forced the eye open.  That felt very much ominous/Chekhov’s gun. :dunno: 

I'm not saying there won't be any magic, just that the series has been indicating for a long time that magic is becoming less of a factor, and this new trilogy has been leaning heavily on the importance of industrialization in changing the world.  If Abercrombie is planning a huge magical clash in book 3, he is setting it up in a very unusual way.

That said, I expect we'll see more magic in book 3 than we did in book 1.  I'm just expecting less than there was in LaoK, when the final battle is decided by a magical nuke (not to mention the many magical eaters, Fenris, Caurib, Sulfur, and the fight in the House of the Maker). 

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Some of the new discussion here seems to be slowing down... was thinking that when this first spoiler thread closes in just a bit, maybe we should roll the new spoiler thread into a third general Abercrombie topic.  :dunno: 

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Finished this yesterday, excellent opener to the new trilogy, you can really see how much Joe has developed as a writer (i’m glad I did the full reread prior to this). New characters were all well realised and believable. In terms of POV, i wasn’t too much of a fan of Vick or Broad, I don’t feel they added much, serving mostly as witnesses to the events around them. Those events were very interesting though, which more than made up for it. My favourite chapter has to be the uprising in.Valbeck, where we jump from POV to POV. Very reminiscent of his short story with the package (Tough Times All Over?).

Most of what i thought and picked up on has been discussed already. I agree that the simple explanation of Sun-Wolf-Lion-Lamb-Owl is the most likely (though not personally sure who he Owl would be). 

Don’t see any hint of Yoru betraying Bayaz. Hope that Zuri and her brothers are actually Eaters. Finree was so damn brilliant and makes perfect sense following The Heroes. Loved the humour and small winks to long term fans (E.g. Gorst asking How is your Mother, Shivers never trusting banks, etc.) The Weaver...I think Lords Isher and co. Will be given more of a role going forward and we’ll find the Weaver is tied to them. Not sure about Bayaz financing the Breakers but could be. As others have said, the Union is just a tool for him. I could see him recognising the turning tide and realising that its better to guide and shape this uprising and social change rather than try to stop it. 

I wonder if Rikke might have been right about her father dying too though. So far we’ve seen Jezal and Scale die which her vision could apply to - but nothing prevents that from meaning Dogman will die too :(

Also RIP Wonderful. That was brutal.

 

ETA: few more stray thought.

I dont think Judge is a character we already know. Though i do expect  two of the candidates bandied around earlier (Carlot and Vitari) to show up sooner or later. Sooner, hopefully. Same with Ishri (if we have not already met her...)

 

I was pleasantly surprised when Bayaz mentioned that he had trouble with Zacharius and Cawneil. I had half expected Cawneil to be all but forgotten about after the first trilogy. Be interested to see if the two of them play any larger role going forward or if they remain window dressing/callbacks.

Glokta really seems to have lost his touch over the years unless he reveals some ruse where he has known and made plans for far more than he lets on. But in all respects - preparing his daughter for the realities of Bayaz and the World, grooming the next King of the Union to the shape he needs to be, but down discontent, staying abreast of the latest intelligence, rooting out corruption and disloyalty in his own Inquisition - he seems woefully out of touch. Ome would think after Frost and Severard he would have learned his lessons too, but Pike is just screaming out “betrayal.”

I wonder who Bayaz has in mind to replace Glokta. I mean Orso is the King but he sure doesnt seem like he could be the next Glokta, steering the ship in Bayaz’ absences.

In terms of succession, i would think Jezal’s daughters (or there husbands) may try to push their rights/powers when they presumably return for the funeral and coronation.

 

Errrr....final though, need more Styria and Monza

Edited by HelenaExMachina

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